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  1. #41
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    In all honesty, since the BLM is undergoing their own resource management plans, etc... I would call them for specific areas. Wilderness areas on BLM land is the same.

    But like I said, if you are encountering a GROOMED snowmobile trail, then chances are you should not be there with an OHV.
    Please consider contributing towards my Summit for Someone effort, benefiting at-risk urban youth.
    http://www.summitforsomeone.org/donate?page=4&climber=8574
    AND... don't forget to Stay The Trail.

  2. #42
    Is this on trail or off trail?


  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by CObronc68 View Post
    Is this on trail or off trail?

    off, the trail is behind the jeep there,
    They will not make or break you.
    They will make or break themselves.

  4. #44

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    bought an already built rig. dying to go when the weather gets a little better. just learned a lot from you folks, thanks.

  5. #45
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    Rhodo, I would also recommend taking some time and exploring the www.staythetrail.org website. There are many, many resources on there including maps, land use information, trail guidelines, contact information, volunteer opportunities, special events closures, and the ever-awesome FAQ.

    That said, hope to see you on the trails!

  6. #46
    If a person cannot find common sense for what is off road and on road, just stay home and keep smoking the stuff that makes people stupid.

  7. #47

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    very helpful.

  8. #48
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChugicakMan View Post
    If a person cannot find common sense for what is off road and on road, just stay home and keep smoking the stuff that makes people stupid.
    Not always the case...

    Since the change in travel management from "open unless posted closed" to "closed unless designated open" there could be a lot of routes that may look like they are open on the ground, but are not open for motorized use as designated by the Motor Vehicle Use Maps and/or BLM Travel Maps.

    But yes, in simple terms... don't drive over vegetation. Here is a post I made awhile ago about some of these issues/questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stay The Trail
    Hmm... Wasn't expecting to see this.

    Stay The Trail does not define "on or off trail" because in all honesty, each ranger district (for USFS) and field office (for BLM) decides their own specific travel management policies with general directives from the Washington level (ie- 2005's Travel Management Rule for the USFS). This allows for these types of decisions to be made at the local level, as local conditions may permit.

    For example, I spent last weekend in Rainbow Falls (SW Douglas County), with the Pikes Peak Ranger District. This precise conversation came up, mainly as it pertained to parking for dispersed camping. What THAT RANGER DISTRICT is telling people is that they are permitted to park within ONE vehicle length of the road/trail to allow for dispersed camping and/or temporary parking. OTHER RANGER DISTRICTS may have different decisions, including up to 300ft from the centerline of the trail to allow for dispersed camping. Folks, i'm sorry to say this, but all of us as enthusiasts will have to know what is on those Motor Vehicle Use Maps (www.staythetrail.org/mvum) to see what is appropriate on different ranger districts. That's the reality of the situation. I know, PITA...

    FWIW, this is from the Forest Service Manual:
    2. Designation of roads and trails may include the limited use of motor vehicles within a
    specified distance of certain forest roads and trails solely for the purposes of big game retrieval
    or dispersed camping. Responsible officials should apply this provision sparingly, after
    conducting travel analysis and appropriate site-specific environmental analysis and public
    involvement.
    That document (FSM7700) and others can be found here: http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/


    Now, that all being said... There are some other things I would like to addresss that i've noticed in the thread.

    1. Ammo for the anti-access groups: For those aware of the recent debacle with the OHV Funds, or for any of you who have bounced around some of websites of the organizations that are against motorized recreation on public lands, you are aware that we are under scrutiny 24/7. That should not be a suprise to any of you. But, what I don't want is for the "well, if XXXXXXX club sees this, we could lose our trails" to be the driving force behind following responsible recreation guidelines, whether they are promoted by Stay The Trail, Tread Lightly!, NOHVCC, etc. What SHOULD be the driving force is that we should all be interested in protecting the resources that we encounter when we go out and recreate on public lands... for us, for our kids, for our friends, for the rest of the users... Personally, the challenges are fun, but is there anyone here that doesn't appreciate the scenery and the mountains while they are out?
    2. Where to park my rig: Common sense in combination of knowing the regulations that I referred to above. Period. In general... Please don't run over trees, please don't tear up vegetation, please don't block the trail.
    3. Shakey... "if i'm on grass, i'm off trail": I am going to assume you are referring to the larger boxes that show appropriate vehicles for the trail designation, specifically the "breaking trail, turn around" comment. Here is MY interpretation of that... a TRAIL would lead from one point to another. Therefore, if you are driving over vegetation to get from one point to another, then yes, you are breaking trail, and should not be doing so... however, parking on the side of the trail to eat/camp is not breaking trail unless you are continuing travel over that vegetation for the sake of getting to another point. Does that make sense?
    4. "Authority on trails" - The ONLY "Authority" is the land management agencies. Period. For the USFS, that authority is shown with the MVUM's, and the BLM is following suit with its own travel managment process. That is one of the reasons we host the MVUM's on the Stay The Trail website. I have tried my best to encourage people to check the MVUM against their "companion" or "user" maps as the new MVUM's are released to ensure that the trail is still available for use by each type of vehicle... lets play a scenario for you, so that you can all see what i'm talking about.
    -I have my Taylor Park map that has Tincup and Hancock Passes on it, and was something that I found years ago. I can't remember who produced it. I've always used this map, cause it's simple to use and I can carry it with me, unlike the MVUM for the Gunnison (btw... that one isn't complete yet, check www.cohvco.org for details).
    -I stopped in to the Stay The Trail trailer at Taylor Trading post and Justin told me that the MVUM is out (again, hypothetical) and that I need to see if the trails i've historically ridden, and are shown on my user map, are still open to my Jeep.
    -I got on the www.staythetrail.org/mvum page, found the Gunnison RD MVUM for 2009 and looked, and OMG... the trail that i've used for YEARS isn't on that MVUM. Gosh darn. Guess i'll cross that off my user map, but AT LEAST I KNOW I SHOULDN'T BE THERE. The MVUM also says that I can go within 300ft of FSxxx for dispersed camping. That's pretty neat. Well, lets see about this other trail I used... GREAT! It is shown on my user map AND on the MVUM. Now I know that I can still use that one.

    Now many of you are probably thinking, "Great Justin, what is your point...?" Well, my point is that ANY MAP YOU USE that is NOT the MVUM (or the BLM equivalent once they are finished) SHOULD BE CHECKED AGAINST THE RELEVANT MVUM EVERY YEAR. So, that is not to say that you shouldn't use Traildamage.com or whateverothersite.com you want to use to get a good quality "companion" map, but you need to be aware of what you need to do before you claim anyone to be "the authority" other than the managing agency.

    I don't get on here as much as I used to, but please... if anyone is interested in discussing this further with me, please check out the calendar on the Stay The Trail website ( www.staythetrail.org/calendar ) and come visit me at one of the events. There are a number of them in Denver this summer, as well as around the state. I can't promise that I have all the answers, far from it, but my job is to try and make sense of this and get the proper information to you, so whatever I can do, i'll try.
    Here is the thread: http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showt...ight=twin+cone

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChugicakMan View Post
    If a person cannot find common sense for what is off road and on road, just stay home and keep smoking the stuff that makes people stupid.
    Hey Tom, how's it going?

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
    klaatu barada nikto

    Quid Futuis

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChugicakMan View Post
    If a person cannot find common sense for what is off road and on road, just stay home and keep smoking the stuff that makes people stupid.
    Maybe you should stop smoking that stuff long enough to actual get out to a trail so you can see that it's not always that easy to determine on-vs-off trail (which is the discussion, not on-vs-off road).

  11. #51
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    Alright... In an effort to help eliminate more confusion with what routes are open, and to what type of vehicles, we have added an MVUM layer on our individual google view on many of the riding areas that can be found here: www.staythetrail.org/maps

    An example of what we've done: http://staythetrail.org/maps/viewtra...nav=0&expand=0


    In the example (Red Feather Lakes), you can see where we have identified the "main" trailhead or entrance to the area, the routes that allow for dispersed camping, etc.

    Enjoy

  12. #52
    just a quick question, I got scolded the other day about a picture showing the trucks pulled to the side of the trail to let bikes get around us. we were told that we were going off trail and I am just trying to figure out if that is ok to do. I am talking about going part way off the trail with tires still on the trail. not going over bushes and stuff either.

  13. #53
    Pulling aside to let people pass is OK.

    Driving around a fallen tree/rock is considered breaking trail.


    (Drive over it, winch it out of the way or turn around.)






    Not saying either ever happened.
    Last edited by SPY; May 7th, 2010 at 09:41 PM.
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  14. #54
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARMY_CRUISER View Post
    just a quick question, I got scolded the other day about a picture showing the trucks pulled to the side of the trail to let bikes get around us. we were told that we were going off trail and I am just trying to figure out if that is ok to do. I am talking about going part way off the trail with tires still on the trail. not going over bushes and stuff either.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPY View Post
    Pulling aside to let people pass is OK.

    Driving around a fallen tree/rock is considered breaking trail.


    (Drive over it, winch it out of the way or turn around.)


    Not saying either ever happened.
    What he said. In general, just be smart about where you pull over. Most ranger districts allow at least one vehicle length off the trail in order to park for camping, etc. Just get back on the trail as soon as you can. Best idea though, is to find a wide enough spot that you're not on vegetation at all.

    Trail Tips can be found here: http://staythetrail.org/etiquette/index.php

  15. #55
    Alright I am going to do this without beating a dead horse. We where on Holy Cross last week, and I saw an obstacle that has changed a lot over the years (don't they all). This:
    http://staythetrail.org/etiquette/obstacles.php "Rock N' Roll" deal got me thinking about it.

    After you cross French creek, and take that tight left turn there is a little rock slab that always has some water pooled up. Then the trail gets off camber to the left. The ONLY way the trail used to go was over these rocks on the right side of the trail. That is the more difficult way to go, which in my mind is a plus. I remember about 10 years ago, I came up there and some @#!$%@#$% had gone off the trail down to the left because they didnt want to go over those rocks. Then following two years it got all muddy and ripped up down there. Multiple times little things where built to block people from going down there, and they where abused.

    Now, there are all kinds of rocks piled down there to save it from getting ripped up (a good thing), and there is a fence built to stop rigs from going into the forest (a good, but sad thing). So, we pull up to this, I like taking the tough way, but it is obvious no one has gone on the "original trail" in a while from the lack of markings and little vegetation growing. So, I am in a conundrum in my head. I do not want to be the bad guy that "made his own trail", even though I know that technically, everyone is going on something that was not the trail to begin with.

    I decided to follow the others because that seemed like "the trail" now, and didn't want to piss anyone off. It sucks because I liked that little section.

    Is that what we are coming to now? Someone makes a "new bypass" cause they dont want to do a section of the trail... 8 to 10 years later, that is the trail, and you don't even go on the original stuff?

    What would it have been ok for me to do? Can I drive over that little section of rock? In terms of Stay the trail, should I Rock N Roll, or Stay the Line? Which one is which in this situation.....?

    We where the first ones up there for the season, so maybe thats why there was a little vegetation on those rocks? (lets get real here, if it grows right on the trail, it probably wont last so dont get all hippie on me).
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  16. #56
    Captain Radon Steve's Avatar
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    Janky, I know exactly what spot you're talking about. I always go to the right over the rocks because, like you say, that is the original trail. HC seems to be a trail that gets a lot of this kind of stuff. I remember when the creek crossing wasn't nearly as wide as it is now. There used to be bushes on the right side that were clearly not part of the trail. Over the last few years people keep going farther to the right and those bushes are now gone, so it looks like it's always been part of the trail. I go through the middle since that too is where the trail has always been.


  17. #57
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    That spot used to be hairy as heck that you're referring to, Janky. You could slide off, and roll.

    Last year when I did HC, I did not go up on the right side there, because it seemed the trail has "moved".

    But I can see what Steve is saying- the "old" route is mostly rock, so I don't think you'd have been "that guy" if you took the orig line.

    I think both lines through there (easy and hard) are fair game. It looks like 90% of people are taking the easy line through there, however.

    What's this I hear about the Cleveland Rock "gatekeeper"?

    I'm askeert to go over it, but someone mentioned that there's a full-on bypass now.......

  18. #58
    Captain Radon Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottycards View Post
    What's this I hear about the Cleveland Rock "gatekeeper"?

    I'm askeert to go over it, but someone mentioned that there's a full-on bypass now.......
    I can't imagine where a bypass would be there. The left is nearly vertical and the right is a steep dropoff.

  19. #59

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    The bypass around the cleveland rock gatekeeper looks almost exactly like the bypass around the tricky tree root rock that you guys are talking about. Slopes down and around the low side of the obstacle in a flat area. Both bypasses make the original obstacles look even more precarious. Flopping on the gatekeeper obstacle would be a painful fall down to the bypass.

  20. #60
    Does any one know if Rattler will ever open back up again. I saw it in an old colorado backroads show and it looked awesome. If its not open what steps do you take to open a closed trail if it is possible.

  21. #61
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    Need more info...

    Agency?
    Where is it?
    Route number?

    Basically, if it wasn't included in the travel management plans, then it would have to go through an environmental study in order to be re-opened.

  22. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoXJ View Post
    Need more info...

    Agency?
    Where is it?
    Route number?

    Basically, if it wasn't included in the travel management plans, then it would have to go through an environmental study in order to be re-opened.
    Looks like it was closed back in 1997: http://www.4x4now.com/trcors.htm
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  23. #63
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    FYI... In case this hasn't gotten here yet:

    Android and iPhone users can now upload geo-referenced MVUMs to their phone and use the phone's GPS to see where they are on the legal maps. http://staythetrail.org/news/?p=761

    From the iPhone "store", search for PDF Maps from Avenza. Download (free) and then you can search "stay the trail"-tagged maps, including Stay The Trail's OHV Opportunities Map.


  24. #64
    Dave McDonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoXJ View Post
    FYI... In case this hasn't gotten here yet:

    Android and iPhone users can now upload geo-referenced MVUMs to their phone and use the phone's GPS to see where they are on the legal maps. http://staythetrail.org/news/?p=761

    From the iPhone "store", search for PDF Maps from Avenza. Download (free) and then you can search "stay the trail"-tagged maps, including Stay The Trail's OHV Opportunities Map.

    Damn you people and your cool helpfull apps - you're gonna wind up costing me money by tempting me into getting a cell phone that doesn't flip open and didn't come free with the no-contract plan.
    Lunatic #15
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  25. #65
    Lilly Bear ColoradoXJ's Avatar
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    I have an iphone4 i'll sell ya

    But you have to love Verizon to use it... Now back to the fringe with ya'!

  26. #66
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    Way cool!

  27. #67
    Just downloaded all the Colorado maps. Looks like a great tool, thanks for sharing!
    '96 Grand Cherokee with stuff done to it.

  28. #68
    Grumpy Ol Biker CLYDE's Avatar
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    What? Nothin for a windows8 phone?? geez
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoXJ View Post
    FYI... In case this hasn't gotten here yet:

    Android and iPhone users can now upload geo-referenced MVUMs to their phone and use the phone's GPS to see where they are on the legal maps. http://staythetrail.org/news/?p=761

    From the iPhone "store", search for PDF Maps from Avenza. Download (free) and then you can search "stay the trail"-tagged maps, including Stay The Trail's OHV Opportunities Map.

    Tired of being tired.



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  29. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by CLYDE View Post
    What? Nothin for a windows8 phone?? geez
    Nah, most user aren't old enough to drive or are old enough they shouldn't be anymore
    -Ben
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  30. #70
    One post said they have seen tickets issued to a vehicle being recorved from sliding/rolling off the trail. This, to me, is INSANE! I always stay on the trail, clean up trash, and make an area i was in look better than before I was there, but come on...someone has an unfortunate mishap and a ticket is issued?! Wow, thats very rude by the ticketing officer.

    Even on the road.....coming from the east coast, i find it amazing police issue tickets here at an accident, without ever seeing the accident. Back in the northeast this is *NEVER* done. Allowing a ticket to be issued without seeing the event is so far out of line i cant beleave anyone puts up with it here. (From what i was told, if you ever get one of these tickets its almost always easy to get dismissed in court since there was no witness to it). Really i think the issue this is done here is pure and simple $$$ the city/county/etc needs unlike an area such as NYC.

    That said, going off trail, and knowing it....or leaving trash on the trail or in the wilderness should defiantly result in a fine...it ruins the area for all of us. And who wants to see trash in the amazingly beautiful mountains.

    --John

  31. #71
    So cops in the NE have to personally witness every crime that happens or nothing can be done about it? I knew that CSI:NY show was bs.......
    www.staythetrail.org

  32. #72
    Yep, for traffic citations. I'm sure if you hit a car and took off they could charge you. But at an accident scene, there is no way for them to issue"reckless driving" speeding or anything. Law requires someone to witness it. Could you imagine if they issue sued just based on what they thought happened?

    --John


    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
    So cops in the NE have to personally witness every crime that happens or nothing can be done about it? I knew that CSI:NY show was bs.......

  33. #73
    First time poster here and thought I would thank everyone for this thread, very good info. I'm just getting back into off-roading after being away from it for a lot of years. Thank you for the map app info, I have a Nexus7 tablet I use for fishing apps while out in the boat so I just downloaded this app to take with me while out on the trail! Thanks all!

  34. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by TthePikester View Post
    First time poster here and thought I would thank everyone for this thread, very good info. I'm just getting back into off-roading after being away from it for a lot of years. Thank you for the map app info, I have a Nexus7 tablet I use for fishing apps while out in the boat so I just downloaded this app to take with me while out on the trail! Thanks all!
    I second the motion. Lots of great information on the thread. It all boils down to respecting the trail rather than conquering it.

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