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  1. #41
    ASCTLC's Avatar
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    Isn't it interesting so many are coming unglued about an impact to this inauguration by boogaloo or whateverthehelltheirnameis.

    Extremists are a threat but can't be to this inauguration. They said it'd be a virtual inauguration because Trump didn't do enough for COVID.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I guess i completely misunderstood what you were meaning when you said, and i quote, " But I dislike both the evangelicals and Israel so I guess I'm all for it".
    Um, it's because of how I've seen them treat other people, not because they worship God. Keep diggin'

    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    Well that is just terrible. I am sorry that you and your liberal friends were forced to focus on your hatred for Trump and racism that you made up in your own minds for four years instead of enjoying the great economy and no wars and the lowest unemployment among blacks in forever etc.
    No you're not sorry, that's fine. And we haven't been forced to focus our hatred, we've very much chosen to focus on that hatred and turned it around into showing him, and a GOP-led House and Senate the door.

    Looking forward to all the winning,
    mike
    Last edited by sweater; January 15th, 2021 at 01:05 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweater View Post
    Um, it's because of how I've seen them treat other people, not because they worship God. Keep diggin'
    Keep digging for what? I made an assumption about you based on not only your post that i quoted but another as well. You said i was wrong so i apologized.
    From the only state in the USA where O'dumbass failed to carry a single county. :hail:

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    From Fox News - Left-wing activist charged in Capitol riot after saying he was just there to 'document'
    Left-wing activist charged in Capitol riot after saying he was just there to 'document'
    Good. Throw the a-hole in jail for his part in it. Sucks that he's on my side or something if you want to look at it that way.

    But we've already seen the batshit insane theories that it was actually Antifa and BLM who caused all of this, right? I wouldn't expect anything else from conservatives, a group of people who so stridently follow a man who has been demonstrated to be a prolific liar. How can we expect conservatives to all-of-a-sudden part with lying and turning a blind eye to how hypocritical conservatives are when they choose who they want to represent them and vote against their own self interests?

    So we're left with his conservatives' lasting legacy in our country:

    A failure to keep control of national government and what some claim to be a shrinking political party as conservatives age out of the equation. I'm not holding my breath for the death of conservatism, but I feel pretty good about how critical younger generations are of "traditional" conservative ideology in what I've directly experienced over the last several years. And I'm laughing into my kombucha over the astounding whining from the right about getting their come-uppance:

    Marjorie Taylor Green was mocked for wearing a “censored” mask as she spoke on live TV at Donald Trump’s impeachment.

    The QAnon-supporting congresswoman donned the black mask with the phrase written in white letters across it as she addressed Congress.

    The Georgia politician was immediately derided on social media by people pointing out the absurdity of her position.

    “The death of irony: Rep Marjorie Taylor Greene wears a mask that says ‘censored’ as she speaks into a microphone in the House Chamber on national television,” tweeted Karen Tumulty of the Washington Post.

    "GOP Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, making a speech on the House floor, broadcast across ALL the national television networks, wears a mask that says ‘censored,’” added @mikedmarler on Twitter.
    That's the face of conservatives. She's yours. So's the dumpsterfire of a high-school dropout Boebert.

    The epitome of what conservative representation looks like - the warm embrace of victimhood.

    - mike

  5. #45
    Captain Radon Steve's Avatar
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    Your pure hatred of which you admit, and the vitriol you post about "conservatives" (as if there's a single definition of that term) is actually quite shocking Mike - and probably not healthy.

    There is no single definition of a "liberal" nor is there the same for a "conservative," however much you may wish for it. The sad fact is that many, many more people voted against a candidate in the last two elections for POTUS than voted for a candidate. It's a truly sad statement that the best we can come up with out of 330,000,000 people is Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. If there was a "None of the Above" choice on the last two elections it would have won by a landslide.

  6. #46
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    With the way both sides are acting right now they're doubling down on what got us someone like Trump in the first place. And with the well honed dirty deceitful tactics career politicians have practiced for many decades it sadly takes a brash and rough tempered human being to withstand the constant barrage of utter BS that was thrown at Trump.

    Granted, he too often opened his mouth and invited attacks that otherwise might not have been so easy to launch at him but we witnessed an exaggeration of nearly everything he said or did believing they could prevent anything positive he did for the people from being realized.

    eta: I just wish he could have gotten something done with the cost of health care (insurance really) to put a big giant dent in the ongoing damage the last time the dems had all three branches of govt. and shoved an unread bill up our asses. Many of us are still suffering the extreme rise in insurance premiums with outrageous deductibles that are piled on top of that. Yeah, convince me how "people can afford health insurance" but $8k deductables on top of $5-$10k annual premiums per person still means affordable.
    Last edited by ASCTLC; January 15th, 2021 at 03:13 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweater View Post
    Good. Throw the a-hole in jail for his part in it. Sucks that he's on my side or something if you want to look at it that way.

    But we've already seen the batshit insane theories that it was actually Antifa and BLM who caused all of this, right? I wouldn't expect anything else from conservatives, a group of people who so stridently follow a man who has been demonstrated to be a prolific liar. How can we expect conservatives to all-of-a-sudden part with lying and turning a blind eye to how hypocritical conservatives are when they choose who they want to represent them and vote against their own self interests?

    So we're left with his conservatives' lasting legacy in our country:

    A failure to keep control of national government and what some claim to be a shrinking political party as conservatives age out of the equation. I'm not holding my breath for the death of conservatism, but I feel pretty good about how critical younger generations are of "traditional" conservative ideology in what I've directly experienced over the last several years. And I'm laughing into my kombucha over the astounding whining from the right about getting their come-uppance:



    That's the face of conservatives. She's yours. So's the dumpsterfire of a high-school dropout Boebert.

    The epitome of what conservative representation looks like - the warm embrace of victimhood.

    - mike
    So what you are saying is that some republicans are acting just like the democrats acted when Trump won?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Your pure hatred of which you admit, and the vitriol you post about "conservatives" (as if there's a single definition of that term) is actually quite shocking Mike - and probably not healthy.
    Wouldn't call it pure hatred, but hatred's there and you're spot on that it's not healthy. I appreciate it if you're concerned about my health, but I assure you that I've spent literally the last four years (it's been coincidental to the election but timed the same way nonetheless) to make some very fundamental changes in my life that have been the most positive for me and my family in my my just-shy-of-49-years alive. A lot of it has been motivated by wanting to offset conservative rhetoric and behavior around me. Of which there's been a lot to experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    There is no single definition of a "liberal" nor is there the same for a "conservative," however much you may wish for it.
    Nope, there isn't. But the use of "liberal" as a slur has only gotten worse over the last several years so I make the conscious effort to try and make conservatives feel just as uncomfortable when their label is used. That, and one of the best tactics that has been used to - and will be continued to be used - will be to copy the conservative tactic of lumping in all of "the left" in together to demonize their opponent.

    Because at a certain point I actually thought liberals and conservatives would possibly come back to the center together - and then the Dems anointed Hillary as the best candidate and Trump won.

    So The Good Times(tm) came to an end - remember how we all used to parade around in our lifted brodozers with Obama flags and shut down highways and fired up our outboards and our "Own the Conservatives 2020" banners while we sank each others' boats?

    Yeah me neither.

    There's a point where you actually can't compare both ideologies as being the same in fervor but on different ends of the spectrum - we're past that point. You're watching the country recoil from how deranged conservative culture and actions have become. You don't see the FBI calling out "leftist environmental terrorism" or even BLM and Antifa as a threat to the US on par with ISIS, but you do get to hear about how white supremacist terrorists are on par with ISIS per the FBI and DHS.

    Chad Wolf, acting secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, reported in the "State of the Homeland Threat Assessments 2020" that white supremacist violent extremists have been "exceptionally lethal in their abhorrent, targeted attacks in recent years."

    Since 2018, white supremacists have conducted more lethal attacks on the U.S. than any other group. And these attacks sometimes target law enforcement officers.
    And where do white supremacists fade into the background when the take off their Proud Boys shirts and white hoods? Conservative areas of this country, not liberal areas of this country. Because they know they're safe there among other conservatives who might not find themselves going all in with the crazy but aren't willing to stand up against it. Guess which communities are NOT being watched by the FBI because of our terrorist activities? Democrats and liberals. Enjoy the surveillance, suckers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    The sad fact is that many, many more people voted against a candidate in the last two elections for POTUS than voted for a candidate. It's a truly sad statement that the best we can come up with out of 330,000,000 people is Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. If there was a "None of the Above" choice on the last two elections it would have won by a landslide.
    I literally don't see that and I don't empathize with the "truly sad" statement - I don't see the results of the election as being much more than 74,222,593 Americans felt that they could give a pass to a guy who cheated on his third wife with a stripper whom he then had paid off, who refused to admit he was wrong about calling for the death penalty for five minority kids in 1989 who were very much exonerated years after their lives were destroyed, who characterized piece of sh** self-avowed white supremacists as "very fine people on both sides" and who just lies. And has everyone around him lie for him. And then his supporters lie for him. And 74 million Americans wanted four more years of that and there's NOTHING that Biden has done that can out-suck how horrible of a human being Donald Trump is. Remember when Trump had to admit in court in 2017 that he used money from the supposedly charitable Trump Foundation to purchase a $10,000 portrait of himself to hang in one of his hotels? Good times, good times.

    Again, I'm no huge fan of Biden but the comparison between the two as basic human beings isn't possible. Hey - if you abstained from voting or voted for Kanye good on you. At least you're walking the walk. But if you voted for Trump, even because you thought he was the lesser of two evils, I hope to never be in the situation where your thought process or judgement can affect me or my loved ones.

    No - I will not and probably never will again see liberals as just the opposite of conservatives. Conservatives had that tenuous opportunity with me once, but not again. Conservatism has shown its true, selfish, ugly face through boldface lies and anti-masking and just continued celebration of ignorance and hypocrisy.

    YES YES YES - liberals and Democrats lie and are hypocrites too! They totally are! But the net effect of the crappy character of conservatives vs. liberals is not equal and opposite.

    Really, all you conservative guys had to do is just chill for a bit and let us look like the assholes for calling you a basket of deplorables.

    Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig swing and a miss, conservatives.

    - mike
    Last edited by sweater; January 15th, 2021 at 05:13 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    So what you are saying is that some republicans are acting just like the democrats acted when Trump won?
    Remember that time right after Clinton lost the election when we dragged a police officer into the crowd and beat him to death and then flew home to our safe spaces only to have the FBI start sending out hundreds of warrants for our arrests? And then Clinton sought to blame the Proud Boys for the violence?

    Take a moment and watch the video of him being beaten to death.

    Remember that these aren't just words. These words and thoughts have consequences, and one of those consequences of current conservative rhetoric was that a police officer spent his final moments surrounded by conservatives who beat him to death and gave him no respite or quarter.

    The responses to Trump's win and now Trump's loss aren't even remotely comparable.

    - mike

  10. #50
    WHY are so many law enforcement groups coming unglued? Could it be because boogloo or whateverthehelltheirnameis tried to OVERTHROW the country last week and wanted hang Mike Pence!?!?!?
    Wild they are so concerned.
    Color me shocked....

    Quote Originally Posted by ASCTLC View Post
    Isn't it interesting so many are coming unglued about an impact to this inauguration by boogaloo or whateverthehelltheirnameis.

    Extremists are a threat but can't be to this inauguration. They said it'd be a virtual inauguration because Trump didn't do enough for COVID.
    Last edited by 1BGDOG; January 15th, 2021 at 06:11 PM.
    [SIZE=4]I don't even own a Jeep, oh wait I do and it is sick! [/SIZE]:P
    [URL]http://www.factcheck.org/[/URL]
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    [/URL]

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweater View Post
    Remember that time right after Clinton lost the election when we dragged a police officer into the crowd and beat him to death and then flew home to our safe spaces only to have the FBI start sending out hundreds of warrants for our arrests? And then Clinton sought to blame the Proud Boys for the violence?

    Take a moment and watch the video of him being beaten to death.

    Remember that these aren't just words. These words and thoughts have consequences, and one of those consequences of current conservative rhetoric was that a police officer spent his final moments surrounded by conservatives who beat him to death and gave him no respite or quarter.

    The responses to Trump's win and now Trump's loss aren't even remotely comparable.

    - mike
    It is despicable and hopefully when they catch the idiot that did that, he resists arrest and gets the same treatment whether is really is a Trump supporter or not.

    I will say it again, all those who stormed in are idiots so you don't have to preach to me about that.

    I was speaking more to the hatred from the left and their media counterparts who have done nothing in the last 4 years starting before Trump even took office other than to smear him and try to get him out of office. Yeah, i know..... He can act the bafoon and yeah, i know that he is FAR from perfect but never before have i seen 4 years of nothing but hate spewed towards a president by this countries law makers.

    Your savior Oboma wanted to build a fence along the border and he was hailed as a hero even though he didn't get it done. Trump actually does build fencing and he is a racist because he doesn't want mexicans in the country. Its Trumps fault we have the covids even though he wanted to stop travel into the country early but nope, liberals shut that idea down calling it racist and on and on and on.

    I honestly don't even know why Trump would have even wanted to go through four more years of the BS he has gone through already.

  12. #52
    Captain Radon Steve's Avatar
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    You must have a lot of free time Mike.

    I didn’t vote for either Trump or Biden. I couldn’t vote for either with a clear conscience. YMMV.

    I also think it’s bad for the country when one party, regardless of which it is, controls the House, Senate and POTUS. Again YMMV.
    Last edited by Steve; January 15th, 2021 at 08:40 PM.

  13. #53
    One thing this post has shown is that partisan politics is real, real.

  14. #54
    To feign outrage over Trump being dishonest or immoral and support Robinette puts a persons lack of objectivity on full display

    It amazes me that some people have the ability to find the worst in everyone else while seeing past the beam in their own eye. See my signature
    " A mans rights rest in three boxes; the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box" Fredrick Douglass
    "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them" George Orwell

  15. #55
    creepycrawler's Avatar
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    From Fox News - Graham releases Russia probe docs, slams original investigation as 'incompetent, corrupt'
    Graham releases Russia probe docs, slams original investigation as 'incompetent, corrupt'

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gra...bi-doj-history

    As if we didn't already know this. Four years of investigations that they knew were BS and made up from the beginning. How much money did the dems spend/waste on this? All of this simply because of their blind hatred of Trump.
    Last edited by creepycrawler; January 16th, 2021 at 07:32 AM.

  16. #56
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    I was just looking at the CNN website and there is no mention of the left wing activist that led people in and was calling for them to burn it down. That is strange.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    From Fox News - Left-wing activist charged in Capitol riot after saying he was just there to 'document'
    Left-wing activist charged in Capitol riot after saying he was just there to 'document'

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/lef...n-capitol-riot

    I never saw this coming.

    I'll not be holding my breath while waiting for CNN or Politico or the Washington Post to report this today.
    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    I was just looking at the CNN website and there is no mention of the left wing activist that led people in and was calling for them to burn it down. That is strange.
    Well, i see that he was released from jail without bail. I guess being a left wing extremist does have its perks. I suppose cameltoe harris would have bailed him out anyway.
    Last edited by creepycrawler; January 16th, 2021 at 08:16 AM.

  18. #58
    Lets flash back a few years to President Trumps inaguration. Remember how the left acted?

    I started with nothing, and I've got most of it left.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamFromCO View Post
    Lets flash back a few years to President Trumps inaguration. Remember how the left acted?

    You can't possibly believe that just because its real. Democrats love everyone and are tolerant. Ya know, unless you don't agree with them or are an unborn child.
    Last edited by creepycrawler; January 16th, 2021 at 09:41 AM.

  20. #60
    Of course there were the protesters that invaded the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings:


  21. #61
    creepycrawler's Avatar
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    Sweater, we are obviously on complete opposite spectrums when it comes to politics. I am going to be completely honest in saying that i simply don't understand your side of it and i think that its safe to say that you don't understand my side of it.

    Can we have an actual conversation here and explain ourselves to each other? I don't know about you but i just can't wrap my head around what liberals, and i am not using that at a derogatory term, see for the future of the united states.

    No insults. No condescension. Just a back and forth discussion.
    Last edited by creepycrawler; January 16th, 2021 at 11:07 AM.

  22. #62
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    Reflecting on that conundrum CC I believe it comes down to:

    One side: There are so many damned ways to die I'm not going to hole up and waste what time I have left worried about every possibility. Which equates to: I'm not going to quit driving just because so many inattentive fools won't pay attention when they do.

    Other side: You're too stupid to understand the risks. Which equates to: When I'm out driving, you need to stop your ass on the side of the road so you don't risk my health.

    eta: Maybe you better recognize it with recent politician's actions: You stay home while I can go on vacation/family gathering out of state/party/restaurant so you don't risk getting me sick.
    Last edited by ASCTLC; January 16th, 2021 at 11:48 AM.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASCTLC View Post
    Reflecting on that conundrum CC I believe it comes down to:

    One side: There are so many damned ways to die I'm not going to hole up and waste what time I have left worried about every possibility. Which equates to: I'm not going to quit driving just because so many inattentive fools won't pay attention when they do.

    Other side: You're too stupid to understand the risks. Which equates to: When I'm out driving, you need to stop your ass on the side of the road so you don't risk my health.

    eta: Maybe you better recognize it with recent politician's actions: You stay home while I can go on vacation/family gathering out of state/party/restaurant so you don't risk getting me sick.
    There is a lot of that but would still like to have a civil conversation with someone like sweater who is obviously pretty far left. I just can't grasp what they are looking toward and am trying to figure that out.

    Either way, i am loading up the kayak and am fixing to see if i can get some bass to inhale a lure into their mouth holes.
    Last edited by creepycrawler; January 16th, 2021 at 01:04 PM.

  24. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    Can we have an actual conversation here and explain ourselves to each other?
    Ask anything you'd like. I promise to cut the sarcastic BS and answer to the best of my ability.

    - mike

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweater View Post
    Ask anything you'd like. I promise to cut the sarcastic BS and answer to the best of my ability.

    - mike
    Thanks. I have been wishing for this kind of conversation for a long time and now that i have the opportunity, i don't guess i even know where to start but i will figure it out when i have a few minutes to think about it.

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    Thanks. I have been wishing for this kind of conversation for a long time and now that i have the opportunity, i don't guess i even know where to start but i will figure it out when i have a few minutes to think about it.
    Dang it. This sure would be easier in person over a hand shake and a beer.

  27. #67

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    sweater you're just reinforcing exactly what the first post in this thread said.

    Enjoy the control while you can, the pendulum will swing again and I think the R's have had enough of trying to play by the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweater View Post
    I just remember that debate. The one where he was asked, point black, to denounce white supremacy. I know you're going to see that as him having done it, whatever.
    So, is that the only thing you know of in terms of him denouncing white supremacy? How about the countless times he did it even before running for office and while campaigning in 2016?

    I'll bet you only heard part of the news conference after Charlottesville as well.
    Last edited by CSP; January 16th, 2021 at 07:41 PM.
    Why is it that common sense isn't so common anymore?

  28. #68
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    I guess my overall question would be what would the perfect US look like in your mind and how would it get there but i know there is no way to answer that without writing a book so i will just start with a couple thoughts. I am not going to point out the hypocrisy about anything because i am sure that you know as well as i do that it exists everywhere in politics on both sides.

    Open borders. I believe having open borders in todays age is ridiculous. I do believe that there should be a quicker path to citizenship that there is currently and don't understand why neither side has fixed this problem. Either way, in my opinion, we can't just open the flood gates and let anyone who wants to just walk in. Terrorists and other criminals are a real threat but to me, in the long run, the economy simply can't support it.

    Hurting feelers. How far and at what expense should the US go to not have someone get their feelings hurt? Do you see the whole "pronoun" thing being as ridiculous as i do? Seriously, we are to the point where a prayer is said (i cant remember if it was in the house or senate) and it was ended with amen and awoman. Amen is not a gendered word.

    Minimum wage and welfare. To me, raising the minimum wage to $15 is just stupid and irresponsible. The argument is that the current minimum wage is not enough to live on. Ok, that is most likely true but it was never meant to be a living wage. Minimum wage jobs are for high school students. Do they not realize that anyone who may only make 15 an hour currently after working hard to get to that point is going to expect a similar raise like to 20 an hour when i new hire gets 15 an hour? What does the government expect to happen when minimum wage gets boosted that much? Obviously, small businesses will just close because they can't afford to pay that much or they will raise the cost of goods or services to make it up so now your 15 dollars will now buy you the same amount as your 8 dollars, (i don't even know what minimum wage is now) bought you before the minimum wage increase.

    As far as welfare/food stamps and the like go, i am all for them.....as a step up, not as a way of life. While the original intentions were probably good, i blame government handouts for keeping minorities down more than anything else. When generation after generation are brought up living on the government tit and are encouraged to have more and more kids because the more kids they have, the more money they get, its got to be nearly impossible to get out of that cycle. Yes, i know that there are whites living on the government tit as well. I just think that these hand outs do a lot more harm to minorities.

    These are by no means all i want your opinion on but just a start and things that came to mind in no particular order.

  29. #69
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    Anyone else, feel free to chime in as long as it is civil and sweater, i don't intend on this being a one sided discussion. Please ask anything you want about my position on things that you can't wrap your head around as well. I would actually like for big doggie to join in the conversation. I am tired of the hate on both sides.

  30. #70
    So I hope you're going to see a common theme in a lot of my responses: Regardless of my oft-chosen style of communication, I prefer to err on the side of empathy and compassion for other human beings - and I get the most fired up when I see one group taking advantage over another group that is less able, or ill-equipped, to fight back against pressures on them at a larger level (politically, socially, financially, and so on).

    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    Open borders. I believe having open borders in todays age is ridiculous. I do believe that there should be a quicker path to citizenship that there is currently and don't understand why neither side has fixed this problem. Either way, in my opinion, we can't just open the flood gates and let anyone who wants to just walk in. Terrorists and other criminals are a real threat but to me, in the long run, the economy simply can't support it.
    I do not believe in an open border policy - that would be ridiculous. And I fully agree on there needing to be a quicker path to citizenship, or even just better monitoring of visas and expulsion of those who overstay visas. I think we can do better to recognize the contributions that migrant workers have to our economy, and how we can better protect those humans when they show up to do the jobs that need to get done to keep food and basic services on our tables. Absolutely I would rather have US citizens working those jobs first and foremost, but the current leverage of being able to employ undocumented workers allows far too many employers to maximize profits by choosing to employ those undocumented workers.

    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    Hurting feelers. How far and at what expense should the US go to not have someone get their feelings hurt? Do you see the whole "pronoun" thing being as ridiculous as i do? Seriously, we are to the point where a prayer is said (i cant remember if it was in the house or senate) and it was ended with amen and awoman. Amen is not a gendered word.
    Again, I would rather err on the side of respecting someone else's request that you treat them equally and with respect. If someone wants me to refer to them as "she" instead of "he", that's a simple thing I can do that is highly likely to make that person's life a slight bit better. I personally get more confused with "they/their" but I also have never run into that situation in the wild, so to speak. I don't think I see pronouns as "ridiculous" but I agree that - shocker - some people can take them too far, and that that desire to take them too far might be rooted in so many complicated events leading up to this point to the extent that I'm not really up for trying to understand it all. I don't personally see where there have been US or local laws enacted that have required me to change my life in order to keep someone else from getting their feelings hurt. I do applaud any laws or changes that have sought to include more people regardless of age, sex, gender, creed, race, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    Minimum wage and welfare. To me, raising the minimum wage to $15 is just stupid and irresponsible.
    I think that the biggest problem, hands-down, that is biting and will continue to bite this nation square in the ass is the widening of the income gap. If you need, I'm happy to reference one of the countless analysis of how many billionaires have increased their wealth just in this last year alone. I think it was very telling that workers at King Soopers, Safeway, Walmart, etc were categorized as "essential" during this pandemic but are still paid relatively much lower wages than their employers. Almost as if we as a country had to recognize that their inability to do their jobs makes it super uncomfortable for the rest of us.

    I see a $15 (or some relatively large increase) minimum wage as a good thing. I'm not going to downplay the risk to smaller businesses that would need to comply with that wage requirement. But if someone is going to show up for a 40hr week and work - not even bust ass, just do their job - they should be able to live off of that work. Like, have a home/apartment. Our tax dollars help cover employees at large companies because those companies aren't paying people more:

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO)
    Millions of American adults who earn low wages rely on federal programs to meet basic needs, such as Medicaid for health care and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program for food.
    Really, the richest of the rich in this country are continuing to get richer off the backs of the working poor. That gap has widened drastically. Young people do not have access to the same opportunities that you and I had in previous decades - purely judging by the stratospheric rise in the cost of a college education alone. We've got a huge bubble coming again when millions of kids entering the workforce can't pay off their student loans - and stop buying cars and new TVs and having kids and purchasing homes and consuming things because they can't afford those luxuries that previous generations could.

    How would I address that? Higher taxes on the rich. Mandated higher wages for the poor. Trickle-down economics doesn't work. Call it the redistribution of wealth or whatever and brand it with the lightning bolt of "socialism" but something has to be done to help re-balance how wealthy some people have gotten at the expense of other Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    As far as welfare/food stamps and the like go, i am all for them.....as a step up, not as a way of life.
    That's the problem - with such low wages and with large companies refusing to employ people full-time in order to pay them benefits, welfare/food stamps are used by millions of people who already show up for work so that they can survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by creepycrawler View Post
    While the original intentions were probably good, i blame government handouts for keeping minorities down more than anything else. When generation after generation are brought up living on the government tit and are encouraged to have more and more kids because the more kids they have, the more money they get, its got to be nearly impossible to get out of that cycle. Yes, i know that there are whites living on the government tit as well. I just think that these hand outs do a lot more harm to minorities.
    It's not as simple as that - minorities have been traditionally geographically segregated into areas that have less economic opportunities. You're asking people to physically move to other areas of the country where the jobs are. And when you can't even necessarily own a car and afford to relocate yourself (away from your lifelong community and family, no less) you end up stuck in the same cycle of poverty - and this is not even necessarily a racial minority problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by fahe.org
    After seeing that nearly a quarter of Appalachian Kentuckians are below the poverty line, it would be easy to assume that the unemployment rate would be to blame but that isn’t the whole story. In 2014, the unemployment rate for the US was 6.2% and the Appalachian region was at 6.5%.Kentucky’s rate was only 2% higher. So it would be best to look at the per capita income of Appalachia against the entire US.

    One of the main poverty issues of Appalachia stems from the fact that the employed population of these states make significantly lower amounts of money than the rest of the US. In 2014, the per capita income of the Appalachian region of Kentucky was only $30,308 while the entire US was at $46,049. The number for the region taken as a whole comes out to $37,260, which is only 80.9% of the US per capita income.
    Best trick corporations and politicians ever pulled on us all was to get us fighting with each other over how much the poor were screwing us over while the wealthiest continued to expand this income gap.

    As for more of what I'd like to see the US head towards / become?

    • Closing the wealth gap. I don't buy into the idea that ultra-rich people will stop innovating and creating and employing millions of people because they have 10 billion dollars instead of 100 billion dollars.
    • Universal Healthcare. Healthcare in this country is a g-damn scam. "66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work." No one should be financially ruined because they got sick.
    • For chrissakes do something about the cost of higher education. Maybe not make it free, but if you can stomach The Atlantic they have an excellent series on how much of a rip-off college has become.
    • Continue our reduction in reliance on foreign sources of energy, and increase our investment in non-fossil-fuel generation of energy. This is a no-brainer: natural gas and oil will run out. Natural gas and oil create more pollution than solar, wind, geothermal, and even some would argue nuclear energy sources. But don't saddle consumers with that change - it's corporations that benefit from cheap fossil fuels the most. They've just got you believing that if you buy a Prius the world will be a better place while they continue to fight hard for the reduction in emissions standards and against loosening of environmental protections.


    - mike
    Last edited by sweater; January 17th, 2021 at 10:58 AM.

  31. #71
    And I'll go one farther because it hits close to me personally - guns and gun control. And that'll spill over to the Justice System in America, just you wait.

    I believe in the right to bear arms but I also believe that those rights have limits, in the same way that the 1st amendment has limits (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater and all that).

    I don't buy into the deaths-from-firearms statistics thrown out in most anti-gun rhetoric, knowing that the majority of firearms deaths in the US are suicides, not homicides.

    See my previous comments about the healthcare system in the US - we have a mental health problem, not a firearm problem. Make it easy for people to be healthier (physically and mentally) and I bet you're going to see those numbers go way down.

    I don't think a single person should be able to purchase a gun without a background check, timely or otherwise. Likewise, if you can pass that background check I abhor the patchwork of municipal limitations in the US, such as the near-impossible ability to obtain a permit in NYC or Chicago and the recent hopelessly feel-good but worthless "assault weapons ban" in Boulder.

    But what about all those convictions for things, especially those convictions that substantially impact the poor and minorities rather than rich white people?

    I don't think a single prison in this country should be run for profit. What in the every-living f**k good does it do for us, as a country, to allow a company to make a profit off of someone being incarcerated? I mean, there could never be any conflict of interest there, right?:
    Quote Originally Posted by nypost.com
    Judge Ciavarella, who sentenced around 3,000 children in a similar manner, was later sentenced himself to 28 years in prison for financial crimes related to his acceptance of $2.2 million as a finder’s fee for the construction of a for-profit facility in which to house these so-called delinquents.
    On that one, I'd like to say that I speak from experience from my time as juvie detention officer - poor kids were sucked farther into the system while rich kids ended up with mostly innocuous brushes with the law.

    So yeah, add this to the list of Sweater's America:

    • Dammit just legalize weed already. We've pretty much proven that the devil's lettuce does not destroy society as we know it, it just reduces the ability of police departments and municipalities from being able to rake in some cash and if we're going to let alcohol stay legal, let me get my burn on with Willie Nelson in peace and mild anti-social paranoia. This also ends up not sucking so many minorities into the justice system, which is incredibly hard to get back out of if you don't have a ton of cash to fall back on like rich people do.
    • Normalize and de-stupidize firearms laws. I'm looking at you, California.
    • F'n charge someone who uses a firearm in the process of a demonstration with inciting violence. GTFO out of the statehouse with your AR15, Y'all Queda, and work harder to get your point across without a weapon strapped to your tacticool vest. I also like the term "Vanilla ISIS". Got a ring to it.


    A lot of people might point out that my self-admitted vote for Biden/Harris goes directly against my views on gun ownership.

    Yup.

    It's a somewhat sort of calculated risk. I think the benefits of having Biden/Harris outweigh voting for Trump - who actually doesn't seem to have a great history of protecting gun rights, just not directly messing with them.

    What I'm counting on is -

    get this

    - a really large portion of the US populace pushing back against drastic changes to gun laws, especially when there are much more pressing issues at hand. I'm expecting about as much change in gun control laws and reinstatement of the AWB as happened when Obama was in the WH and the Dems held all branches of everything and even had more control in the Supreme Court. I am basically counting on my own party to drop their own ball.

    That's the kind of subtlety in politics and society I want to try to get to. Where everything is so much more grey-area and difficult and hard because that hard work is worth it.

    - mike

  32. #72
    creepycrawler's Avatar
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    Wow. That is a lot and i appreciate it. I am once again fixing to load the kayak up and go fishing but will get back to you on your reply. I honestly do not see that we are very far apart on issues so far.

  33. #73
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    Two questions Mike:

    Define “rich” using a number. What net worth, or what annual income, makes a person “rich” and therefore subject to higher taxes?

    What, exactly, do you mean by “universal healthcare?” Have you experienced such? I have, and it sucks.

  34. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Define “rich” using a number. What net worth, or what annual income, makes a person “rich” and therefore subject to higher taxes?
    The top .5%, maybe even push it back to the top .1%. This translates to around $17,000,000 per year income at the .1% range.

    But mostly? I want to turn around the trend where American billionaires paid proportionally less in taxes in 2018 than the working class:

    Quote Originally Posted by businessinsider.com
    In 2018, billionaires paid a smaller portion of their income in taxes than average Americans. That's the first time that has happened in history.

    Billionaires paid 23% of their income in federal, state, and local taxes in 2018, according to an analysis of tax data by the University of California at Berkeley's Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman for their upcoming book "The Triumph of Injustice." The average American, meanwhile, paid 28%.
    So while I'm not personally able to give you the exact dollar breakdown of which income brackets should be taxed more, I fully believe that an individual making $17,000,000 per year can pay more back into a system that favors the wealthy at the corporate level more than it favors 99.9% of the American population. The income inequality gap is widening A LOT:

    Quote Originally Posted by brookings.edu
    The share of wealth in the economy is increasingly owned by families in the top of the income distribution. The top 20 percent held 77 percent of total household wealth in 2016, more than triple what the middle class held, defined as the middle 60 percent of the usual income distribution.

    In fact, the top one percent alone holds more wealth than the middle class. They owned 29 percent—or over $25 trillion—of household wealth in 2016, while the middle class owned just $18 trillion.

    This has not always been the case. Before 2010, the middle class owned more wealth than the top one percent. Since 1995, the share of wealth held by the middle class has steadily declined, while the top one percent’s share has steadily increased.
    I'm not saying we're all just getting hosed and screwed over, but the system favors the extremely rich and wealthy and the gap is widening a whole metric sh** ton year after year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    What, exactly, do you mean by “universal healthcare?”
    I find Bernie Sanders' outline of Medicare For All to be very agreeable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by My Man Bernie
    We should be spending money on doctors, nurses, mental health specialists, dentists, and other professionals who provide services to people and improve their lives. We must invest in the development of new drugs and technologies that cure disease and alleviate pain—not wasting hundreds of billions of dollars a year on profiteering, huge executive compensation packages, and outrageous administrative costs.

    The giant pharmaceutical and health insurance lobbies have spent billions of dollars over the past decades to ensure that their profits come before the health of the American people. We must defeat them, together. That means:

    Joining every other major country on Earth and guaranteeing health care to all people as a right, not a privilege, through a Medicare-for-all, single-payer program.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Have you experienced such? I have, and it sucks.
    Steve, when was the last time you or your family were faced with a major, non-elective medical procedure and you had no medical insurance? How much have you had to pay out of pocket because you didn't have any medical insurance? Or, how often have you forgone medical care because you don't have medical insurance coverage? There are tens of millions of Americans that don't even get a chance to experience your sucky healthcare.

    That's the situation I'm talking about - we haven't gotten to the quality of care or convenience. That's a way's down the road. I'm just talking about people who don't go to the doctor or ER purely because they have no coverage and can't afford to pay out of pocket.

    A better comparison would be to hear from someone who has lived for an extended time with no medical coverage and who also was sick and see if they'd turn down your experience with healthcare. I'll put my the entirety of my next DNC-mandated quinoa harvest on the table and bet that they'd still opt for your medical coverage experience.

    I don't compare anything that American has farted around with to anything that I'd like to see in the US, including Obamacare/ACA. I compare us to the other 32 countries that have it.

    - mike
    Last edited by sweater; January 17th, 2021 at 04:53 PM.

  35. #75
    sweater
    You argue with folks who know not what or why they argue... they argue because they believe their side is "right", but can't say WHY it is right and when shown where fundamentally wrong over and over STILL accept it. Facts be damned... see COVID19 protocols.
    They can not DEFEND that side so ask belittling questions and try to wear you down.
    They know that people they follow say the other side is bad... so those who can rationally defend themselves are the "elites".
    This coming from someone much like you a libertarian that only wants this country to prosper.
    With less .gov in my life and less debt on my kid's kids cause R's have NO/KNOW clue on how to serve this country...


    "LIBTARD" out. Also most likely a 1% too..

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweater View Post
    So I hope you're going to see a common theme in a lot of my responses: Regardless of my oft-chosen style of communication, I prefer to err on the side of empathy and compassion for other human beings - and I get the most fired up when I see one group taking advantage over another group that is less able, or ill-equipped, to fight back against pressures on them at a larger level (politically, socially, financially, and so on).



    I do not believe in an open border policy - that would be ridiculous. And I fully agree on there needing to be a quicker path to citizenship, or even just better monitoring of visas and expulsion of those who overstay visas. I think we can do better to recognize the contributions that migrant workers have to our economy, and how we can better protect those humans when they show up to do the jobs that need to get done to keep food and basic services on our tables. Absolutely I would rather have US citizens working those jobs first and foremost, but the current leverage of being able to employ undocumented workers allows far too many employers to maximize profits by choosing to employ those undocumented workers.
    I would have to say that we see eye to eye on this so far. What are your thoughts on ICE raiding places that employ large numbers of " undocumented workers"? I think they should and you may disagree with me on this but after raiding such places, the punishment should not be so much on the employees but the company employing them should get hammered and i mean hammered hard.

    Another thing that is annoying to me, and this goes back to hurting feeling.... Why has the term undocumented worker been shoved down our throat like illegal alien is a dirty word or something? If one is in the country illegally, they are in fact an illegal alien and i just don't get the need to white wash it in order to protect a criminals feelings.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BGDOG View Post
    sweater
    You argue with folks who know not what or why they argue... they argue because they believe their side is "right", but can't say WHY it is right and when shown where fundamentally wrong over and over STILL accept it. Facts be damned... see COVID19 protocols.
    They can not DEFEND that side so ask belittling questions and try to wear you down.
    They know that people they follow say the other side is bad... so those who can rationally defend themselves are the "elites".
    This coming from someone much like you a libertarian that only wants this country to prosper.
    With less .gov in my life and less debt on my kid's kids cause R's have NO/KNOW clue on how to serve this country...


    "LIBTARD" out. Also most likely a 1% too..
    I don’t see any arguing in the last 6 or 7 posts - until your post. I don’t see any sarcasm or insults in the last 6 or 7 posts - until your post. See a pattern?

  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BGDOG View Post
    sweater
    You argue with folks who know not what or why they argue... they argue because they believe their side is "right", but can't say WHY it is right and when shown where fundamentally wrong over and over STILL accept it. Facts be damned... see COVID19 protocols.
    They can not DEFEND that side so ask belittling questions and try to wear you down.
    They know that people they follow say the other side is bad... so those who can rationally defend themselves are the "elites".
    This coming from someone much like you a libertarian that only wants this country to prosper.
    With less .gov in my life and less debt on my kid's kids cause R's have NO/KNOW clue on how to serve this country...


    "LIBTARD" out. Also most likely a 1% too..
    Wow. I guess i withdraw my invitation for doggie to engage in the conversation.

  39. #79
    No, I see folks being "mean" to me when I post and letting it roll off my back like the last almost 20 years.
    I see CONSTANT sarcasm to me by belittling of me and I get it, it is a forum that leans old and conservative.
    That is the pattern I see.
    I see only 2 or so folks being called out because they "think" different than the other 9 or so posters.
    Another pattern I see..
    That is the pattern Steve.
    Matt

    Edit "argue" or "discuss"
    Feel free to use that word if it makes you feel whole.
    2nd edit
    Just looked at the last 6 or 7 posts.... half are from someone on my block per Eric....
    So your mileage may vary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    I don’t see any arguing in the last 6 or 7 posts - until your post. I don’t see any sarcasm or insults in the last 6 or 7 posts - until your post. See a pattern?
    Last edited by 1BGDOG; January 17th, 2021 at 06:15 PM.

  40. #80
    Captain Radon Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BGDOG View Post
    No, I see folks being "mean" to me when I post and letting it roll off my back like the last almost 20 years.
    I see CONSTANT sarcasm to me by belittling of me and I get it, it is a forum that leans old and conservative.
    That is the pattern I see.
    I see only 2 or so folks being called out because they "think" different than the other 9 or so posters.
    Another pattern I see..
    That is the pattern Steve.
    Matt

    Edit "argue" or "discuss"
    Feel free to use that word if it makes you feel whole.
    2nd edit
    Just looked at the last 6 or 7 posts.... half are from someone on my block per Eric....
    So your mileage may vary.

    Matt, I just read every post in this thread. I found none “being mean” to you or belittling you. I did find some the other direction. If you want to engage in a civil discussion, great. If not, don’t bother posting in this thread again as there are others trying to have a civil discussion.

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