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  1. #1
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Attention Cummins 12 valve gurus!!!

    My recent battle with my tow rig has left me thinking it's time to finally upgrade the old pig. Truck in question is a 97 Dodge 2500 xtra cab CTD with 151K miles. It has the nv4500 and is 4x4. The motor and drivetrain are untouched except for bigger air filter, intake, intake horn, KDP, and a PacBrake exhaust brake. I have been collecting parts for a massive upgrade since I bought the truck about 8-10 years ago. And am ordering the rest of the needed parts tonight. Wanting to make sure (double, triple check) that I am heading down the correct path.

    I am wanting to keep the reliability but wanting a bunch more HP or torque. Real numbers don't really matter as long as I can pull whatever I want, where ever I want, and quickly as I want. MPG doesn't bother me much, some, but not too much.

    Here is what I am planning:

    Compounds using a S300/S400 (S300G 57/65/12 and a BW S472/83/1.10 T6)
    DPS 3 piece exhaust manifold
    4" hi-flow exhaust
    Headstuds w/ new gaskets
    Remove Fuel Plate
    Add AFC Live
    4K GSK
    Adjustable overflow valve
    .055 delivery valves
    60# valve springs
    5x.014 injectors
    South Bend Clutch
    New inline Pacbrake assembly
    New hi pressure boots

    So what am I missing? Am I off track? Should I upgrade the cam while I am at it? Go to a FASS fuel pump? Everything I have read states that I won't need to upgrade the cam or the stock lift pump to achieve what I am after with this turbo combo. Am I correct?
    Last edited by Aaron; April 26th, 2018 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #2
    Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

    It does sound like you've stuck to the old adage of: Cheap, Fast, and Reliable. You only get to pick 2.

    I wouldn't bother with the cam. IMO, aftermarket cams are relevant for race trucks, not tow rigs. As you, I am sure, well know, cams allow for higher flow in and out of the cylinder. Until you have an aggressively ported and polished head (even to the point of a plenum shave), the high flow benefits of a cam aren't fully realized.
    Cages: '08 Dodge 6.7CTD, '08 Nissan Xterra Offroad
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  3. #3
    tacotoy's Avatar
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    I would go with the lift pump if you think you are going to push 150hp or more over stock just to make sure that you don't have fuel issues at higher RPM's.

    Another question is what kind of tuning options do you have to account for the injectors and compounds?
    hookers and blow!

  4. #4
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Thank you for the responses fellas!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    I wouldn't bother with the cam. IMO, aftermarket cams are relevant for race trucks, not tow rigs. As you, I am sure, well know, cams allow for higher flow in and out of the cylinder. Until you have an aggressively ported and polished head (even to the point of a plenum shave), the high flow benefits of a cam aren't fully realized.
    I have been told and read something similar to this. Still confuses me how perfecting the air flow does little to nothing while boosting the power this much. But I am going to have to believe it until it is proved otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacotoy View Post
    I would go with the lift pump if you think you are going to push 150hp or more over stock just to make sure that you don't have fuel issues at higher RPM's.

    Another question is what kind of tuning options do you have to account for the injectors and compounds?
    Is this where your lift pump gave out on your 12v? Please let me know why you'd think it need replacement. I am not against it in the least. I have been assured by a few different builders and vendors that for my needs, I shouldn't waste the money on the electric lift pump. They would be happy to sell one to me and take my money, but that unless I went with a 13mm injection pump and/or bigger turbos, it wouldn't be needed.

    What kind of tuning should I be looking at doing? The injection pump is be highly tuned using some of the parts listed above, including the AFC Live which will help me dial in fuel. I will be throwing as much air into the mix as I am able with the quick spooling compound setup. And the timing will be set somewhere between 18-22*. Really not sure what else I need to do to "tune" this mechanical system. Please be more specific.

    Thanks in advance!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    Thank you for the responses fellas!



    I have been told and read something similar to this. Still confuses me how perfecting the air flow does little to nothing while boosting the power this much. But I am going to have to believe it until it is proved otherwise.



    Is this where your lift pump gave out on your 12v? Please let me know why you'd think it need replacement. I am not against it in the least. I have been assured by a few different builders and vendors that for my needs, I shouldn't waste the money on the electric lift pump. They would be happy to sell one to me and take my money, but that unless I went with a 13mm injection pump and/or bigger turbos, it wouldn't be needed.

    What kind of tuning should I be looking at doing? The injection pump is be highly tuned using some of the parts listed above, including the AFC Live which will help me dial in fuel. I will be throwing as much air into the mix as I am able with the quick spooling compound setup. And the timing will be set somewhere between 18-22*. Really not sure what else I need to do to "tune" this mechanical system. Please be more specific.

    Thanks in advance!
    While an electric lift pump won't hurt, given what it sounds like you are chasing, I don't see it as necessary.

    You've got the fuel tuning covered. Mechanical motors are much simpler from a timing standpoint. Being mechanical, you have to change parts to do much more than adjust injection timing vs TDC timing.

    The P7100 is a wonderful injection pump, that with a few changes (removing the fuel plate, etc) can produce huge numbers with the appropriate supporting mods.

    The only thing I might add, but I'll admit I'm not 100% sure how it'll jive with your Pacbrake, is an external wastegate between the compounds. It gives you more capability to tune your turbos to your motor, and to prevent over driving the secondary.

  6. #6
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    While an electric lift pump won't hurt, given what it sounds like you are chasing, I don't see it as necessary.

    You've got the fuel tuning covered. Mechanical motors are much simpler from a timing standpoint. Being mechanical, you have to change parts to do much more than adjust injection timing vs TDC timing.

    The P7100 is a wonderful injection pump, that with a few changes (removing the fuel plate, etc) can produce huge numbers with the appropriate supporting mods.

    The only thing I might add, but I'll admit I'm not 100% sure how it'll jive with your Pacbrake, is an external wastegate between the compounds. It gives you more capability to tune your turbos to your motor, and to prevent over driving the secondary.
    I did order an adjustable timing gear for the pump that I didn't list originally, but that was more for ease of setup. And the S300G I purchased comes with a wastegate for just the reasons you listed. And it shouldn't interfere with the PacBrake setup. Oooo, the turbos just shipped this morning!!! Getting excited.

    Other than that, I really don't need to do anything else, correct?

    I noticed a little spot of fuel under the Dodge this afternoon. Low and behold the brand new, less than 25 miles on it lift pump is leaking. While it was running and under pressure it didn't drip much but it did drip a couple times over a few minutes at idle. Lines are tight and not wet. Seems to be coming from the primer plunger. I may end up going to an electric pump just to stop messing with this nonsense. Any recommendations? Most people I have discussed this with like Fass but heard they are loud. Any good quality quiet ones? Malory? AirDog?
    Last edited by Aaron; May 1st, 2018 at 03:19 PM.

  7. #7
    12V's are pretty simple. Give them some more fuel and air, and let them eat. I think you've got a pretty solid plan/parts list to produce way more power than you need for towing. Although, I will say, pulling trailers with 600+HP is entertaining. People don't expect trucks and trailers to move like that...

    Fass, Airdog, Malory, etc are all good enough. They've all had some issues with motor failure, but I don't know that there's a particularly strong case one way or the other.

    If you're already fighting with the lift pump, you might as well. I used the opportunity to run braided stainless lines with AN fittings from the tank to the motor, but I put my own water/fuel separator and fuel filter plates together so I could have them under the hood, instead of hanging below the body line on the frame... It's a personal thing, but I hate the look the AD/Fass filters hanging off the frame rails.

    I used a an AEM inline pump, Summit Lines and AN fittings, and Baldwin(I think?) plates.

  8. #8
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    12V's are pretty simple. Give them some more fuel and air, and let them eat. I think you've got a pretty solid plan/parts list to produce way more power than you need for towing. Although, I will say, pulling trailers with 600+HP is entertaining. People don't expect trucks and trailers to move like that...

    Fass, Airdog, Malory, etc are all good enough. They've all had some issues with motor failure, but I don't know that there's a particularly strong case one way or the other.

    If you're already fighting with the lift pump, you might as well. I used the opportunity to run braided stainless lines with AN fittings from the tank to the motor, but I put my own water/fuel separator and fuel filter plates together so I could have them under the hood, instead of hanging below the body line on the frame... It's a personal thing, but I hate the look the AD/Fass filters hanging off the frame rails.

    I used a an AEM inline pump, Summit Lines and AN fittings, and Baldwin(I think?) plates.
    Have experience with high horsepower on many different levels, few diesels overs the years but mostly gassers. Just have never spec'ed out or built a compound setup before. I am more used to putting custom built power plants someone else builds into the custom vehicles that I build. I have spent most of my time designing and building the structural and suspension components and leaving the motors to the pros. Sure I have torn apart and assembled my fair share over the years, but I fancy myself a fabricator, not an engine builder. So this project has been fun for me. I get to dive into something that I haven't really before. It's mechanical so I know I will eventually find my way around any potential problems with a little time and research. But when I am in new territory I like to have a solid plan that others with experience can agree with. It's interesting as I find myself often wondering, is it really just that easy? Usually when something is advertised as such, it really turns out not to be. Hence why I am seeking to triple check my info.

    Thanks again for all the comments! Wish me luck as I should start this whole adventure in a few short weeks. Yes, it will be a while as I wait for some backordered parts to come.

  9. #9
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Going through parts for the compound build and am finding invoices from 2013! Have I really been sitting on parts for that long??? Wow.

  10. #10
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    First one arrived already. UPS just dropped it off. Dang that was fast!


  11. #11
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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  12. #12
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    All I got for you is a
    Last edited by tjjared413; May 5th, 2018 at 08:12 AM.
    rig- 04 TJ for going to the malls and tow pig- 15 F350

  13. #13
    tacotoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    While an electric lift pump won't hurt, given what it sounds like you are chasing, I don't see it as necessary.

    You've got the fuel tuning covered. Mechanical motors are much simpler from a timing standpoint. Being mechanical, you have to change parts to do much more than adjust injection timing vs TDC timing.

    The P7100 is a wonderful injection pump, that with a few changes (removing the fuel plate, etc) can produce huge numbers with the appropriate supporting mods.

    The only thing I might add, but I'll admit I'm not 100% sure how it'll jive with your Pacbrake, is an external wastegate between the compounds. It gives you more capability to tune your turbos to your motor, and to prevent over driving the secondary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I did order an adjustable timing gear for the pump that I didn't list originally, but that was more for ease of setup. And the S300G I purchased comes with a wastegate for just the reasons you listed. And it shouldn't interfere with the PacBrake setup. Oooo, the turbos just shipped this morning!!! Getting excited.

    Other than that, I really don't need to do anything else, correct?

    I noticed a little spot of fuel under the Dodge this afternoon. Low and behold the brand new, less than 25 miles on it lift pump is leaking. While it was running and under pressure it didn't drip much but it did drip a couple times over a few minutes at idle. Lines are tight and not wet. Seems to be coming from the primer plunger. I may end up going to an electric pump just to stop messing with this nonsense. Any recommendations? Most people I have discussed this with like Fass but heard they are loud. Any good quality quiet ones? Malory? AirDog?
    I completely spaced that it was a 12v and was thinking newer stuff. If you swap the timing gear then you should solve your WOT fueling issues, like Grant said, mechanical is easier on some aspects to tune up

    I think that Fass and Air dog are similarly loud, and while it is annoying at first you get over it and tune it out. And the benefits of having the water/fuel separation and either double filtration or more options on your filter level never hurt. I run a Fass now, but had an Air dog before

  14. #14
    Depending on your SB clutch, you won't hear a Fass/AD anyway...

    Dual Disk Clutches can be pretty loud... And for towing with a build like you're talking about, you want a dual disk.

  15. #15
    Camp Cook Geek cheftyler's Avatar
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    That's a shiny snail.
    "Blow and Hookers can change the World. - Gags
    Quote Originally Posted by scottycards View Post
    MJ has no lethal dose. You might crawl under your couch and eat M&M's all day if you get too high, but it ain't gonna kill you.

  16. #16
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheftyler View Post
    That's a shiny snail.
    Another one showed up last night:









  17. #17
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    The "little" one next to the big one:



    For a comparison, the "little" turbo pictured is about the same size as the stock HX35.

  18. #18
    Camp Cook Geek cheftyler's Avatar
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  19. #19
    Those will do the trick nicely...

  20. #20
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  21. #21
    i like what i'm seeing here!
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    Most people I have discussed this with like Fass but heard they are loud. Any good quality quiet ones? Malory? AirDog?
    You said "quiet" in regards to a 12v cummins... That's funny!

    So in all seriousness, my Dad put the FASS system on his '98. I realize it's got twice the valves, but he was amazed at what it did for his truck. I'd have to ask specifically his review, but I know he raved about it. I could ask if you want. His hearing isn't the greatest, so not sure if there was a gain in noise??

    but....
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  23. #23
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Thanks all. Should be a fun project.

    Quote Originally Posted by 74BuckinBronc View Post
    You said "quiet" in regards to a 12v cummins... That's funny!

    So in all seriousness, my Dad put the FASS system on his '98. I realize it's got twice the valves, but he was amazed at what it did for his truck. I'd have to ask specifically his review, but I know he raved about it. I could ask if you want. His hearing isn't the greatest, so not sure if there was a gain in noise??

    but....
    No one caught my play on words??? "Heard they were loud"... Maybe I only crack myself up.

    My Dodge is semi-quiet inside the cab. Amazing what a little dynamat does. Don't get me wrong, it's still a CTD, so there is a lot of noise over a passenger car that has had the same Dynamat treatment. So adding more noise into the mix, along with 2 new nosier turbos doesn't make my ears happy. I have decided against going with a electronic fuel pump until I prove I need one. I was reassured multiple times from guys who build these every day that I won't need it. And that if I show signs that I do down the road, it will be an easy upgrade.

    I got another new lift pump installed, got the correct pressure set on the new adjustable overflow valve, and readjusted the AFC and I am back to my truck as I know it. Builds a decent 33# of boost before 3K rpm, and blows a little black smoke under load. Happy to have it fixed, just before the big tear down starts. Still waiting on the AFC Live which is still back ordered, so it's nice to have my tow pig back to it's old self for the time being.

  24. #24
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Ugh, AFC Live was supposed to have shipped Friday at the latest. Guess what still hasn't shipped.

  25. #25
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    WooHoo! AFC Live finally shipped! That means that I should have all the parts necessary to the build next week. Hope get it scheduled in sometime this summer!!!

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    Thanks all. Should be a fun project.



    No one caught my play on words??? "Heard they were loud"... Maybe I only crack myself up.

    My Dodge is semi-quiet inside the cab. Amazing what a little dynamat does. Don't get me wrong, it's still a CTD, so there is a lot of noise over a passenger car that has had the same Dynamat treatment. So adding more noise into the mix, along with 2 new nosier turbos doesn't make my ears happy. I have decided against going with a electronic fuel pump until I prove I need one. I was reassured multiple times from guys who build these every day that I won't need it. And that if I show signs that I do down the road, it will be an easy upgrade.

    I got another new lift pump installed, got the correct pressure set on the new adjustable overflow valve, and readjusted the AFC and I am back to my truck as I know it. Builds a decent 33# of boost before 3K rpm, and blows a little black smoke under load. Happy to have it fixed, just before the big tear down starts. Still waiting on the AFC Live which is still back ordered, so it's nice to have my tow pig back to it's old self for the time being.
    A 12v is quiet compared to the rock eating 7.3 Powerstroke...

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