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  1. #41
    tacotoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euroford View Post
    yeah, i'll be interested to find out as well! i've been able to find precious little real information out there. I did find a youtube clip comparing two cummins trucks with each version of the clutch. The dampened clutch was basically silent (as mine was) and the undampened clutch had a moderate "hum" when you pressed the pedal, as heard with the drivers door open. This didn't seam objectionable to me, nor my wife when I showed her. she commented that the overall sound of the cummins engine was by far the more annoying thing to put up with lol.

    or as a sales guy with South Bend put it "well, when you press the pedal you'll definitely know that somethings going on in there, but we have thousands of customers who daily drive this setup and they are happy with it".

    on other forums and facebook, commentary spanned the range of "super annoying, no way" to "no big deal, i'd get another one", though feedback was overall limited to very few people with some real experience and several people just weighing in an uninformed opinion.

    glad your interested, i'll definitely post up after I get it up and running!

    Its also an interesting aside that I get a general "not a fan" vibe from the South Bend guys regarding the addition of the damping system to what they felt was already a very good design. kind of like customers demanded a "quite" dual disc clutch, so they came up with one, despite an overall feeling that it was a design compromise.
    I feel like the wording trainwreck applies just the same.


    damping a clutch and expecting performance is a bit crazy at these loads.....
    hookers and blow!

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by euroford View Post
    interesting... I've been emailing back and forth a bunch with South Bend trying to find the perfect clutch setup for my rig and use, they are recommending that I go with a semi-custom version of the Dual Disc Street (SFDD3250-6, my last clutch), but modified WOUTHOUT the rubber dampers on the ears of the center plate.

    given my demanding use and desire for reliability they say this basically eliminates the weak point of this setup and that it will last considerably longer, especially given my aggressive mountain driving and occasional visits to Bandimere, but it might rattle quite a bit more, only when the clutch is pressed.

    given how noisy the whole thing is anyways, and that the noise will only occur when the clutch is pressed, I imagine this is something that i can live with, but I have no frame of reference and googling has not located any examples to listen to.

    does anybody have any experience with UNDAMPED twin disc clutch?
    I hadn't seen this till now.

    I have an undamped Valair DD, that's far more aggressive than the DD3250, and it rattles. A LOT. Primarily when the clutch is pushed in, but it will also make extra noise in neutral with the clutch out.

    I don't necessarily mind it, but you can plan on having to turn the truck off in drive thru's for the speaker/microphone (you may have to already because of engine noise, but the clutch will make it worse, the trans is right next to the microphone). There are times when it's annoying at stop lights in the summer, but when the truck launches, the clutch doesn't slip, and I giggle like a little kid. Makes it worth it.

    The noise of the DD is offset by it's ability to take abuse, especially when pulling with a tuned truck.
    Cages: '08 Dodge 6.7CTD, '08 Nissan Xterra Offroad
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by tacotoy View Post
    I feel like the wording trainwreck applies just the same.


    damping a clutch and expecting performance is a bit crazy at these loads.....
    It is crazy, but it works pretty well, which is a testament to the engineers at SB, but when your customer base really wants something, you either deliver or lose some of your customer base.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by tacotoy View Post
    I feel like the wording trainwreck applies just the same. damping a clutch and expecting performance is a bit crazy at these loads.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    It is crazy, but it works pretty well, which is a testament to the engineers at SB, but when your customer base really wants something, you either deliver or lose some of your customer base.
    I definitely don't want to diss on the Street DD system too much, if you want something designed to hold 500+ HP and tow heavy while being better than stock in every way, its a GREAT setup! mine way totally silent, had very light pedal pressure, felt great with just the right amount of modulation to either drive totally smooth or spin the rear tires on demand, and it held up to an incredible amount of abuse. EVERY Wednesday through the summer, I either hit Bandimere or head to Winter Park to go biking, in both cases i'm either hot-lapping the track before it gets crowded or straight mobbing every corner up the pass, not to mention the high speed towing on i70 and hooligan driving to work and back. I can honestly say i've been really hard on the thing and didn't let me down a bit.

    But it is really nice to properly understand the limitations of the system, and even though South Bend doesn't really make that common knowledge out there on the interwebs, they were more than happy to openly discuss the trade-offs via email and telephone.

    On trade offs of a double disk, even being "slower shifting" due to the weight of the system was not something I ever experienced. I can still shift it fast enough to keep the turbo spooled up and chirp the rear ties on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. Though I don't really advise that behavior if you want u-joints to last very long. I'll openly admit that i'm kind of an irresponsibly abusive driver and its frequently my own damn fault when i break parts.

    On keeping the turbo spooled on shifts... Its also worth mentioning that my blow off valve helps A LOT. its pretty uncommon that people install these on diesels but I can tell you that it is a really great addition and really helps keep that turbo spinning between shifts. I turn it off once a year to go get my emissions test done, not that I think it would be a violation, but just so the tester isn't like "what the heck is that?", and the turbo feels noticeably lazy, even when i'm not hard power shifting it, but anytime that i'm shifting through boost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    I hadn't seen this till now.

    I have an undamped Valair DD, that's far more aggressive than the DD3250, and it rattles. A LOT. Primarily when the clutch is pushed in, but it will also make extra noise in neutral with the clutch out.

    I don't necessarily mind it, but you can plan on having to turn the truck off in drive thru's for the speaker/microphone (you may have to already because of engine noise, but the clutch will make it worse, the trans is right next to the microphone). There are times when it's annoying at stop lights in the summer, but when the truck launches, the clutch doesn't slip, and I giggle like a little kid. Makes it worth it.

    The noise of the DD is offset by it's ability to take abuse, especially when pulling with a tuned truck.
    Thanks for the feedback Grant, i'm willing to bet that my experience will be similar to yours and in the "noisy but worth it" category. South Bend never mentioned that it would rattle in neutral and were pretty adamant that its only noisy when pedaled. I hope that's the case, but kinda too late to complain at that point!

    I do have a lot of sound deadening in my trans tunnel, installed when I had the trans out to do my up-pipes. I think this time when I have it out i'll maybe add to that a little bit and make sure its all still well adhered ect. I'm also going to take some extra steps when I reinstall my shift boots to make sure thats all really well sealed. an awefull lot of noise comes up through that hole!

    From a practical perspective I don't do drive throughs very much, it can be a REAL pain in the butt getting around some of the curves being 22' feet long, having a Detroit locker doesn't help that much either! not to mention, yeah, i have to shut the motor down, nobody can here a damn thing!

    I'm really looking forward to having experience with both setups, hopefully I can post up a fairly comprehensive comparison that will be helpful to others in the future.

    more than anything, I know I can live with whatever noise, but I don't really want it to get on the wifey's nerves, so if she's happy its mission accomplished!
    1950 CJ3a - Wilma
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  5. #45
    tacotoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euroford View Post
    I definitely don't want to diss on the Street DD system too much, if you want something designed to hold 500+ HP and tow heavy while being better than stock in every way, its a GREAT setup! mine way totally silent, had very light pedal pressure, felt great with just the right amount of modulation to either drive totally smooth or spin the rear tires on demand, and it held up to an incredible amount of abuse. EVERY Wednesday through the summer, I either hit Bandimere or head to Winter Park to go biking, in both cases i'm either hot-lapping the track before it gets crowded or straight mobbing every corner up the pass, not to mention the high speed towing on i70 and hooligan driving to work and back. I can honestly say i've been really hard on the thing and didn't let me down a bit.
    Oh i wasn't looking to bash either, I just feel like the desired use and expected life issues would normally detract people. But there are also other things that may lead people away from a normal DD with the noise that this would help as well.

  6. #46
    and.... my water pump croaked today. i'm going to set this thing on fire.

  7. #47
    Frustrating! I just (hopefully) came out of a season of that with my bronco. Fuel issues resulting in a 10 minute trail ride after trailering for 3.5-4hrs. Turn around a drag it back home.
    God Forgives, Rock's Don't www.ucora.org
    1973 Bronco, 351 SEFI, Locked, discs, 35's ZF-5spd and Atlas 4spd. 235:1 Crawl Ratio

  8. #48
    the damn crawler has been the most reliable family member the last couple of years! go figure lol! i'd go wheeling this weekend with some buddies if the tow rig was running...

    oh well... i took the day off work tomorrow, and now i have something to do (change water pump) while waiting for my new clutch to arrive...

    i'm getting backed up on projects faster than i can get them done!

  9. #49
    My intent was not to dis the Street DD, not in the slightest. Quite a few of the guys I know that don't want to go to crazy levels with their trucks run them, and they are nice in that they are silent and hold moderate power well.

    I remember seeing the sound dampening that you did, and contemplating doing the same on my pickup, but I think I'll just leave it be. The rattle really isn't that bad. It just gets annoying on certain occasions. Having a 1200w stereo certainly helps cover up some of the annoying noises when I feel like it.

    All in all, I think you will like having a traditional DD given your described driving.

  10. #50
    well son of a gun... the drama never ends! new water pump installed, no problem there, but south bend sent me the wrong clutch. they sent the dampened version instead...

    emailed them right after i received it and going to call them first thing tomorrow, but i'll be shocked if this is resolved to my satisfaction in regards to timing. my 40th birthday is Sunday, plan was to actually get to drive my truck in the mountains on my birthday and go do some BC skiing. gosh... what a run of bad luck this thing has been lately.

  11. #51
    Sorry man! When it rain...

    Keep persisting.

  12. #52
    keep on keeping on it....

    South Bend is sending UPS over to my office today to pick up the incorrect clutch and shipping out the correct one today, hopefully for Friday delivery.

    okay, no chance in hell that this thing will be here Friday, and SB's sales department has pretty much shifted into dickhead mode, pretty pissed off about the whole thing. they almost shipped me the wrong clutch AGAIN and somehow this all ended up being MY fault.
    Last edited by euroford; February 7th, 2018 at 02:49 PM.

  13. #53
    tjjared413's Avatar
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    Damn that sucks to hear man!!!
    rig- 04 TJ for going to the malls and tow pig- 15 F350

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by euroford View Post
    keep on keeping on it....

    South Bend is sending UPS over to my office today to pick up the incorrect clutch and shipping out the correct one today, hopefully for Friday delivery.

    okay, no chance in hell that this thing will be here Friday, and SB's sales department has pretty much shifted into dickhead mode, pretty pissed off about the whole thing. they almost shipped me the wrong clutch AGAIN and somehow this all ended up being MY fault.
    Damn that blows... It's never fun when things go this way.

    The attitude from SB folks sounds familiar. It is a large part of why I have a Valair in my truck.

    On the flip side, Happy early birthday!

  15. #55
    I've been following your saga here and reading along since I currently have a zf6 truck that needs help. It's always been harder to shift and after draining the fluid I found out why. Two shift collar detents and springs came out with the fluid..... So I've been weighing my options of rebuild myself or have it done. It doesn't grind just difficult to shift.

    Also according to the previous owner when the original clutch went he put some South bend single disk in it. Whichever it is I hate it. It's an on/off switch. Impossible to slip and hard to shift smooth ever. I'm very curious how this all turns out.

    I've seen you drive by my shop on occasion. Right off 49th & van Gordon. Truck always sounds good!

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by tjjared413 View Post
    Damn that sucks to hear man!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    Damn that blows... It's never fun when things go this way.

    The attitude from SB folks sounds familiar. It is a large part of why I have a Valair in my truck.
    Thanks guys. Its one thing to deal with "shirt happens", its another thing to deal with a sales jerk being exceptionally rude. If one of my employees copped that kind of attitude with a customer, heads would ROLL. Those guys were all buddy buddy until they screwed up and i called them to the mat on it. I've always been very happy with SB product, but won't be willingly treated that way, so next time i'll be looking elsewhere. I was very close to just canceling this transaction and going with a valair, but that would just set be back another couple of weeks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    On the flip side, Happy early birthday!
    Thanks man! woohoo 40 trips around the sun! kind of bittersweet, i hoped to get out and do something rad, but no-go without the truck running. probably go out with the wifey and do some good eating and drinking through! maybe could still take her rig up to RMNP for some skiing.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncocrawler View Post
    I've been following your saga here and reading along since I currently have a zf6 truck that needs help. It's always been harder to shift and after draining the fluid I found out why. Two shift collar detents and springs came out with the fluid..... So I've been weighing my options of rebuild myself or have it done. It doesn't grind just difficult to shift.
    If I was you, I wouldn't hesitate to take that project on. It'll be a pretty easy fix. split the case and hoist out the gearset, then just knock out the pins on the shift rails so you can slide them out of the way and replace the detents. It would be quite easy and obvious. In fact, I didn't replace my detents so I have new ones that i'd just give you. Heed my advice about replacing the input shaft seal AFTER the gearset goes back in though!

    Quote Originally Posted by broncocrawler View Post
    Also according to the previous owner when the original clutch went he put some South bend single disk in it. Whichever it is I hate it. It's an on/off switch. Impossible to slip and hard to shift smooth ever. I'm very curious how this all turns out.
    I'd bet you a six pack that you have the ferametalic single disk in there. Though its very durable, it would be super grabby and suck to drive. i'd replace that with a dual disc or the single disc organic (if you make less than 400hp), which is still a solid setup and drives great. since you already have a SB flywheel you could get the "repair" package (1944-6OR) for $485 and be in business.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncocrawler View Post
    I've seen you drive by my shop on occasion. Right off 49th & van Gordon. Truck always sounds good!
    Drove past you this morning! and I walk past there almost everyday, just getting out of the office and stretching my legs. I'm right around the corner, Ward road behind the beauty salon. Thanks man! I love the way this thing sounds, i wish i got to here it go by more often lol!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by broncocrawler View Post
    Also according to the previous owner when the original clutch went he put some South bend single disk in it. Whichever it is I hate it. It's an on/off switch. Impossible to slip and hard to shift smooth ever. I'm very curious how this all turns out.
    Welcome to a big single disk clutch. In order to hold power, and be durable, they have to just grab and hold, hence your On/Off switch comment. The organic will be better, but backing up, especially with a trailer, will still suck.

    As euroford said, depending on your current power level, and future goals, there are several options from SB (keep some of your existing parts) or other good vendors. You will enjoy driving your truck again. As I have stated, I have a pretty aggressive DD in my dodge (ceramic buttons and a 3850# spring plate) with upgraded hydraulics, and it's quite nice to drive.

    If you already have to pull the trans to rebuild, I'd change the clutch out to something you want to drive with at the same time.

  18. #58
    How long do you think it would take to do the detent project? Could it be done in a weekend? I'd be tempted to do more while it was apart since it has 212K on it but then again if its not broken dont fix it. We put a valair quiet dual disk in a 06 Dodge a while back and that seemed very nice from the little I drove it. This truck is all stock right now but I have plans to be right around 400hp with it. maybe 375 however it gets hooked to a 20k trailer regularly so the clutch gets abused. After your experience id rather buy valair and avoid SB altogether. I never liked the kevlar pilot bushing thing.

    Did you get the correct clutch yet?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    Welcome to a big single disk clutch. In order to hold power, and be durable, they have to just grab and hold, hence your On/Off switch comment. The organic will be better, but backing up, especially with a trailer, will still suck.

    As euroford said, depending on your current power level, and future goals, there are several options from SB (keep some of your existing parts) or other good vendors. You will enjoy driving your truck again. As I have stated, I have a pretty aggressive DD in my dodge (ceramic buttons and a 3850# spring plate) with upgraded hydraulics, and it's quite nice to drive.

    If you already have to pull the trans to rebuild, I'd change the clutch out to something you want to drive with at the same time.
    Yea I think I will take that advice. Thank god this truck is a floor shift 4x4 because I use 2wd low to back my trailers all the time.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by broncocrawler View Post
    How long do you think it would take to do the detent project? Could it be done in a weekend? I'd be tempted to do more while it was apart since it has 212K on it but then again if its not broken dont fix it. We put a valair quiet dual disk in a 06 Dodge a while back and that seemed very nice from the little I drove it. This truck is all stock right now but I have plans to be right around 400hp with it. maybe 375 however it gets hooked to a 20k trailer regularly so the clutch gets abused. After your experience id rather buy valair and avoid SB altogether. I never liked the kevlar pilot bushing thing.

    Did you get the correct clutch yet?
    I think you could get it done in a weekend, finish disassembly and shift repair on Saturday, reassemble well before dinner on sunday. I think you'd be looking at a couple hours tops to split the case and repair the detents. Thinking about it further, I bet you could actually replace the shift detents without splitting the case. they are pressed in through the center plate from the outside. To pull the caps out, you could either use fords special tool, or drill a small hole in the caps, screw a self tapping screw in and then pop them out with a slide hammer (or some vice grips and a normal hammer!). Though you might have some piece of mind if you split the case, give it all a lookover and a cleanup and also replace the input shaft seal.

    After work i'll dig through my spare parts and make sure i have the caps, springs and pins. my rebuild kit may have just come with springs and caps, foggy memory, i'll double check because it sounds like you'll need those as well.

    If I don't have the detent pins they are P# 1307-306-170 at midwesttrans.com for $5.

    The SB DD clutches don't use the kevlar bearing, they have a ball bearing, but yeah... i'd be happy to convey to them that my poor customer service experience has already resulted in at least one lost sale! Towing 20k i wouldn't want to just toss an organic single disc in there, sounds like you have a Valair DD in your future. FWIW, i bet you could pull that SB single disc out and sell it for $300ish bucks on one of the facebook groups assuming it looks to be in decent condition. some kid running around town in a chipped 7.3 would consider that quite the score.

    UPS tracking says my clutch should show up here at my office sometime today. eagerly looking forward to seeing that and making sure they've sent me the right one this time.
    Last edited by euroford; February 12th, 2018 at 10:13 AM.

  21. #61
    alright! brown santa just stopped by and dropped off the correct unit!


  22. #62
    Now you can get it rolling again!!

  23. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by 74BuckinBronc View Post
    Now you can get it rolling again!!
    Yeah i'm stoked! might take the day off work tomorrow and get it done.

    Another interesting tidbit that separates this from the street DD. The standard version uses two metal springs in each friction disc with the remainder of the dampers being rubber. In my version all of the springs are steel, no rubber nothing.

  24. #64
    whew! busy day! nice 6 hour thrash, new clutch is in and its AWESOME. nice to have her back to full health. will ramble more tomorrow, old clutch was surprisingly trashed.

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