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  1. #1

    Free college for everyone?

    As I understand it, one of Bernie Sanders' campaign planks is that he wants to make college available to anyone who wants to go. Whether that's just community college or state universities or what, I'm not sure. (The first problem I have is the notion that education is "Free" because that "free" education is being paid for by someone else, most likely the taxpayers, but that's a separate issue.)

    Apparently this promise is being made to address the "student loan crisis." But here's my question: Isn't the whole reason we have a "student loan crisis" because too many young people borrowed too much money on the assumption that going to college meant they'd have a good paying job waiting for them when they graduated?

    And when those good-paying jobs failed to materialize, these graduates found themselves with tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of college loans and no way to repay them on the salary they earn as a Starbucks Barista or Best Buy Blue Shirt Guy?

    I can see how removing the debt burden from graduates would be a help them in the short term but they still wouldn't have good paying jobs.

    It just seems to me that if the problem is that there aren't enough good jobs for college graduates, how is producing more college graduates a solution to that problem?

    I can certainly get why colleges and universities are behind this plan, as well as the whole industry that supports higher education, as this plan would benefit them directly. But as for the nation as a whole I'm not so sure.

    Is higher education a goal? Or is it the means to achieve a goal?

    To me it was the latter, the means to achieve something I would not have been able to achieve had I not done it, not a goal in and of itself.

    I'd be curious to know what other people think of this, especially those of college age.
    Last edited by ZappBranigan; January 25th, 2016 at 09:23 AM.
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ZappBranigan View Post
    I'd be curious to know what other people think of this, especially those of college age.
    I think there's two parts to the issue for most of the people in my generation (not necessarily my views).

    The first is the belief that anyone should be able to go to college if they choose so, but the financial barrier is too great for a lot of people mid-middle class and below. Even state schools are expensive nowadays, and the days of 'just work and put yourself through college' are long gone.

    The second is the belief that getting a degree basically guarantees a good job and a successful career. Part of this is cultural because vocational jobs are looked down upon, even if they pay more than some entry level white collar jobs would. I can speak for myself and a few others when I say that I was discouraged from attending vocational school and pushed to go to college instead.


    My perspective: going to college can be an awesome tool to start or further your career. Should anyone be able to go to college? Yes. Should everyone go to college? No.


    I think the push for free tuition is really the symptom of the cultural beliefs outlined above. While I don't agree with the idea of free tuition I do believe that it should be less expensive to attend college.
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  3. #3
    Clod Hopper's Avatar
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    College seems to be presented as a golden ticket to life. It is simply training, a concentrated and focused training, but still just training. You could do the same job and learn to do the job while working it, as was done by many in years past. But tied to the general brainwash of everyone needs to attend college, is the misunderstanding of hiring managers who have come to believe a degree is necessary for every job and what you learn at college cannot be learned any other way.

    Whether to attend college is a decision of investment. You are going to pay a large amount of money to attend, will the training pay off in the long run? If not, it is a horrible decision. Why attend college and get a degree that isn't worth anything? Too many young people grow up with the mindset that they have to attend college and never evaluate the investment.

    Colleges are pricing themselves out of the market and the only way they can continue to raise tuition in the manner they have been is to get on the government dole. Not that they haven't already with federally funded student loans that helped students ignore what they were spending until it was spent. If left on their own without subsidy, colleges will either find a way to do things more efficiently, reduce student attendance, whatever, until they find a more reasonable business level.

    Trade schools have been hugely ignored in the last several decades as a result of the "gotta go to college" push in our culture. As a result, our tradeworkers are facing the same situation as our independent farmers, soaring average age and no one to train and take over the work. Trades are going to see a huge pay jump in the near future.

  4. #4
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    If you take away the pain of going to college, you're going to wind up with a bunch of people flunking out in the first semester. If you're not putting anything on the line, the motivation is lower. "Oh well, the government will take care of me some other way, why study?"
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  5. #5
    I am not exactly college age anymore, but I have a fairly strong opinion on the subject. Let me preface this with my educational background and student loan debt. Between my wife and I, we have 3 undergraduate degrees and 2 masters degrees, with over $100k in current loan debt. College was viewed by us as a means to an end, so that we could have good paying jobs when we completed school and be in a financial position to pay those loans back. When we signed those loan papers, we agreed that the loan would be repaid. EVERY student that signs up for a loan should understand what they need to do when school is complete and how much this will cost them.

    Education is a tool to get that better career and better paying job. Is it the only way this can happen? Absolutely not. My brother has no college education, makes more money than I and is not saddled with any student loan debt. I do not believe that because of this example, I made the wrong choice. I chose my way and he chose his. I sit behind a desk in a climate controlled environment everyday, while he works 6 to 7 days a week outside. This is just one small example, but serves well to drive home the point. Education is a tool that not everyone needs to be successful, but should be available if that person wants it.

    With the cost of college level education increasing beyond what I believe normal inflation to be (my opinion, do not have statistics here), I do think some regulation may be necessary. I have a hard time with this concept though, as it seems to go against a free market society, and the ability of the educational institution to charge what they feel is an adequate price for that education. Do quality instructors and facilities cost money? Absolutely. At some point, prospective students will need to look at a cost-benefit analysis of whether a college education will be worth it, given the cost of the program and the potential salary after school and longer. Will there be a point where the cost of the education outweigh the increase in salary you may receive? I think some fields are already there.

    I also do not believe that education (beyond high school) should be free. Meaning that taxpayers shoulder the burden. If you thought paying $X for an education at 'Low Grade Institute A' was a good idea, which then landed you a job at Staples, I call that a life lesson. Learn it, deal with it, and move on.

  6. #6
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    My personal wake up call in college was when I partied too much, didn't go to class, and failed a majority of my classes as a freshman, then realized just how much money I had wasted.
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  7. #7
    Dave McDonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigChev View Post
    , I call that a life lesson. Learn it, deal with it, and move on.
    Just a shot in the dark here, but you're probably not a big fan of participation trophies, are you?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave McDonald View Post
    Just a shot in the dark here, but you're probably not a big fan of participation trophies, are you?
    Haha! Nope.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    My perspective: going to college can be an awesome tool to start or further your career. Should anyone be able to go to college? Yes. Should everyone go to college? No.
    I think this is a great summation. The question in my mind becomes, what is the barrier that keeps people from attending college if they want? My wife believe that the barrier should not be because the cost is too great to bear. I think that if the cost is too great to bear, you need to consider alternative tools to achieve your end result. Maybe a different school choice, combination of schools, or your intended work field after obtaining your degree does not justify the high price of additional formal education.

  10. #10
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    He must have liked George Clooney's campaign in the movie The Ides Of March.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Clod Hopper View Post
    College seems to be presented as a golden ticket to life.
    Yes, and unfortunately colleges and universities seem to be the strongest proponents of that viewpoint, aided and abetted by high school teachers, guidance counselors etc. Whether it's a conflict of interest to promote that viewpoint (in the cases of colleges and universities it absolutely is) but even more I think it's reflective of a very narrow world view (which is ironic because of course, people who go to college generally assume that their world view is wider and more expansive than those who don't.)

    Trade schools have been hugely ignored in the last several decades as a result of the "gotta go to college" push in our culture. As a result, our tradeworkers are facing the same situation as our independent farmers, soaring average age and no one to train and take over the work.
    Well, you're preaching to the choir here. I would say that it was the post WWII GI Bill that started this trend and then it accelerated when the baby boomers started going to school in the 1960's. From that point on the only "model" of middle-class success seemed to be: Go to college and get a nice white collar job in an office somewhere. Blue collar jobs were seen as second class and only suitable for those whose parents didn't have the foresight to send their kids to college.

    Trades are going to see a huge pay jump in the near future.
    Perhaps, but I still see all the focus and attention in schools going to college. It would be interesting if high school guidance counselors started pushing students to at least consider the various trades.
    Last edited by ZappBranigan; January 25th, 2016 at 10:16 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Ashton View Post
    He must have liked George Clooney's campaign in the movie The Ides Of March.
    I didn't see that, was he promising free college for everybody?

  13. #13
    ni0h's Avatar
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    the title is incorrect. It should be "Should everyone pay for college?".
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ni0h View Post
    the title is incorrect. It should be "Should everyone pay for college?".
    Basically, should Public Education be extended another 4 years to include college? That seems to be, in essence, what Sanders is proposing.

    Actually, that might not be a bad idea except that you know every college or university across the land would scream bloody murder if all of a sudden they had to answer to an elected school board and operate within a school district's budget.

  15. #15
    Clod Hopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clodhopper
    Trades are going to see a huge pay jump in the near future.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZappBranigan View Post
    Perhaps, but I still see all the focus and attention in schools going to college. It would be interesting if high school guidance counselors started pushing students to at least consider the various trades.
    I agree the focus will remain on pushing college, but I suspect the trades will see a big pay jump in spite of that push, simply because there won't be enough of them to do the work.

    That will, in turn, spark another generation of DIYers who cannot afford to hire a plumber, mechanic or roofer because they are just too expensive, especially when you are paying off your student loans working as a manager at McDonalds.

  16. #16
    Clod Hopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZappBranigan View Post
    Actually, that might not be a bad idea except that you know every college or university across the land would scream bloody murder if all of a sudden they had to answer to an elected school board and operate within a school district's budget.
    Depends on how it is structured. If it is an extension of k-12 and everyone has to attend, then the school districts will add it into their current systems. The colleges will have to restructure to focus on higher learning degrees and then change their push from how important college is over to a how important a Masters degree is.

    Only if it free but not mandatory will colleges retain the undergrad programs. I don't see them answering to local school boards. There will be a new branch of the NEA to oversee the whole program. More .gov is betterer.

  17. #17
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    "Free" college won't solve everyone's problems as some (sanders types) think it will. It'll simply transition to "but the entrance requirements are too strict!", followed by a reduction in entrance standards, followed by 'participation award' style degrees, followed by employers not giving two craps about degrees anymore (already getting there from what I can see), ending with the successful dragging of everyone down to less than basic levels so others don't feel left out or have their self esteem challenged.

    I know it won't be free, I'm simply approaching from the view point of those who like this lame assed idea. And from someone who worked full time and attended education full time all paid by myself.

  18. #18
    If someone feels entitled to go to college for free, imagine the types of jobs they'll feel entitled to have once they're out and what a PITA they might be in the workplace. Sure, there will be the kids who actually truly take advantage of it and come out working hard, but I believe that will be the exception.
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  19. #19
    crashXJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZappBranigan View Post
    Basically, should Public Education be extended another 4 years to include college? That seems to be, in essence, what Sanders is proposing.
    Not saying I agree with free anything but man...America sure could use some smartening up. We are not even in the Top 20.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...eading-science

    Yeah I know it is NPR but it doesn't mean the article is wrong. Jus' sayin'...
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  20. #20
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    My parents couldn't afford to send me to college and there were no student loans when I graduated HS. I went into the Navy instead. I now make more than probably 95+% of college graduates my age and take some delight when asked where I went to college; I simply say "I didn't" and watch the look on their faces. That said, it's probably obvious where I fall on this subject.

  21. #21
    Clod Hopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    That said, it's probably obvious where I fall on this subject.

    With Bernie, clearly. Sure would hate to have more youth forced to follow the misery of your life. Terrible I say.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by crashXJ View Post
    Not saying I agree with free anything but man...America sure could use some smartening up. We are not even in the Top 20.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...eading-science

    Yeah I know it is NPR but it doesn't mean the article is wrong. Jus' sayin'...
    Well, the first thing I would ask is: Is making people "educated" by sending them to college, the same thing as making them "smarter?" Not everyone has the same capacity to learn, right?

    To put it into simpler terms, if the gas tank on my motorcycle only holds 4 gallons, trying to pump 10 into it isn't going to increase the capacity.

    But assume for a moment that sending people to college makes people "smarter." OK, then what? What happens after that?

    When we have the smartest, most educated Starbucks Baristas and Best Buy Blue Shirt guys around, then what?

    Because that's what I'm getting at. The former Soviet Union offered higher education to almost everybody. The result wasn't necessarily a better country, it was cab drivers with masters degrees in literature and store clerks with doctorates in physics.

  23. #23

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    I was like Steve, verbatim.

    I think people really underestimate the military for training and what the GI Bill can do for you. Trade schools need to be looked at more closely as well.

    When I sit on hiring committees, one of the first things I look for is military service. If I am hiring someone for a job at $40.00+ per hour, I want to have the best person for that job. To be quite frank, hiring ex-military has never let me down.
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  24. #24
    If the .gov would get totally out of the student loan biz instead and let the college/universities make the loans I'll bet you'd see much more affordable programs with a curriculum more geared to actual real-life situations. I wonder what the loan default rate is for doctors or engineers compared to something like English majors.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by crashXJ View Post
    Not saying I agree with free anything but man...America sure could use some smartening up. We are not even in the Top 20.
    There's also another problem with stats like that and it's the critical question of who gets tested? In most US schools the curriculum is the same for everybody through HS graduation which means that the tests of 15 year olds are testing virtually everybody in that age group.

    However, many countries have a different kind of education system. In many countries (Germany, at least when I was stationed there) students start taking a battery of tests when they're around 12 or 13, basically what we would think of as Jr. High school level. Those that do well are offered the opportunity to go on to "Gymnasium" (which has nothing to do with wrestling mats or dodge ball and is in fact a college-prep school) and those that don't are offered the opportunity to go to trade schools.

    My point being that if the poorer performers are being removed around the age of 12 or 13 then that means the cadre of students being tested in those countries represents the upper half of the students, not all of them, whereas the US students, since they remain pretty much in the same schools, are all being tested. IOW it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    In 3rd world countries the difference is even more skewed because students from poor families, generally speaking, are less likely to stay in school past the primary phase. If a family has a business, for example, or a farm, then most likely by the time the 15 year olds are being given math tests, the 15 year old farm kid is working on the farm and nowhere near a classroom, and the 15 year old kid of the family that runs a market is working in the market.

    So while it may be true that Vietnamese 15 year olds who are in school are smarter, as a group, than American 15 year olds in school, that could be because the lowest performers in the Vietnamese school have already been removed or removed themselves to pursue other activities, while the lower performers in the American schools are still in school.

  26. #26
    crashXJ's Avatar
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    Hey I am not saying I know the answers but I know I have met many people both only primary ed and secondary ed and just wow...people are friggin' dumb. Like scary dumb sometimes.

    Furthermore we have an issue in America where we believe secondary ed is a path to riches or at least a well paying career and this is an image that needs to go away. Once upon a time college was meant to be for the education and you went to college to continue learning about that which excited you. It has since changed into making money doing something. That fallacy needs to end...education post high school should be for the sake of education itself...not to find a career.

    Our primary ed is where we should focus efforts to increase Americans core knowledge IMO.

  27. #27
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    and yet, we spend more and get less.

    i have considered returning to school.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by crashXJ View Post

    Our primary ed is where we should focus efforts to increase Americans core knowledge IMO.
    We need to bring back some of the programs that actually teach kids how to learn and think too. Our primary education system focuses too much on teaching kids to put up good scores on standardized tests. Some basic life skills like balancing a checkbook and budgeting would be nice too.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by crashXJ View Post
    Hey I am not saying I know the answers but I know I have met many people both only primary ed and secondary ed and just wow...people are friggin' dumb. Like scary dumb sometimes.

    Furthermore we have an issue in America where we believe secondary ed is a path to riches or at least a well paying career and this is an image that needs to go away. Once upon a time college was meant to be for the education and you went to college to continue learning about that which excited you. It has since changed into making money doing something. That fallacy needs to end...education post high school should be for the sake of education itself...not to find a career.

    Our primary ed is where we should focus efforts to increase Americans core knowledge IMO.
    Would you want your brain surgeon to have the same level of education as the guy stocking shelves in Walmart? I don't believe that college is used to "find" a career, but can assist in developing the necessary skills you need in that particular career.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
    We need to bring back some of the programs that actually teach kids how to learn and think too. Our primary education system focuses too much on teaching kids to put up good scores on standardized tests. Some basic life skills like balancing a checkbook and budgeting would be nice too.
    Very much this. Shop...home ec (should be required for both genders)...finance...automotive (should be required for both genders)...civics...English Lit (which has been severely eroded over the years) would all be very good things to double down on from a funding/teaching/learning aspect in primary education.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigChev View Post
    Would you want your brain surgeon to have the same level of education as the guy stocking shelves in Walmart? I don't believe that college is used to "find" a career, but can assist in developing the necessary skills you need in that particular career.
    Missing my point. I want the guy who is working on my brain to have gone to school because he is fascinated by the brain and how it works not because his mommy and daddy wanted him to be something when he grew up. Most people already enter college with the idea of "I am going to be this" and rarely if ever change the discipline track. If you have been...think back...how many of your peers changed majors? I would wager not many.

    We will always need people to stock shelves and clean and sweep and build roads and so on and all require varying levels of training and/or education. I don't see how the brain surgeon = the shelve stocker. This is not cold war Russia and as much as the haunting specter of Bernie Sanders free education may curry the fear or favor of some (depending on who you are) I am not buying the hype. We will not have nuke physicists driving taxis. Nor do I think that state run Universities paid with property taxes will somehow be better than a private university which will always be an option.

    I know several people who teach both in public and private sectors as well as primary and secondary ed. They all agree things need to change...the what needs to change and degree therein are the topics that tend to differ.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by crashXJ View Post
    Missing my point. I want the guy who is working on my brain to have gone to school because he is fascinated by the brain and how it works not because his mommy and daddy wanted him to be something when he grew up. Most people already enter college with the idea of "I am going to be this" and rarely if ever change the discipline track. If you have been...think back...how many of your peers changed majors? I would wager not many.
    I don't believe so. I think I understood your point, but I used a rather extreme example as a bit of a devils advocate. If I recall correctly, many of my peers changed their major, or didn't declare a major until they really knew what they wanted to do. I myself always knew I wanted to be an engineer, but initially wanted to work for the space program, then automotive, then structural engineering, and ended up in geotechnical engineering. If I were able to go make and talk to my 18 year old self and say that in 15 years you'll be worrying about the chemical interaction between C3S and sulfates, I'd have said you were crazy. College helped me get to the point where I am now, with only a faint idea of what I thought I wanted to do. Now, I have an extreme interest in what I do everyday.

    You say that you have friends in education and they "say things need to change...but the what they don't know". I'd like to know what they think is wrong with our current educational system. Seems like it works just fine to me, but there are likely people in college (or went) that maybe never should have and "they" think things should change?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigChev View Post
    I don't believe so. I think I understood your point, but I used a rather extreme example as a bit of a devils advocate.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigChev View Post
    You say that you have friends in education and they "say things need to change...but the what they don't know". I'd like to know what they think is wrong with our current educational system. Seems like it works just fine to me, but there are likely people in college (or went) that maybe never should have and "they" think things should change?
    Oh anything from the truly socialist views of level playing field no private ed and so on (truly cold war style education from behind the steel curtain) to far more reasonable opinions on primary ed and how it is funded in most areas by property taxes meaning inner city areas are underfunded while other areas like Grosse Pointe or Cherry Creek are overfunded. I tend to agree with them on this point. It is much like how in Boulder Cty all the taxes seem to go toward making Boulder nicer...and Longmonts bike paths just run along the train tracks...not toward neighborhoods or employment areas.

    Standardized testing is one that all of them think needs to go for multiple reasons both conservative and liberal. Another one has to do with what is taught in school...evolutionary theory is still under attack versus creationism and so on. Even recently the Texas Board of Ed was under fire for forcing McGraw - Hill to more or less whitewash (see what I did there?) how slaves came America and referred to them as 'workers.' Now how could a company cave to a state like that? Well Texas has deeeeep pockets and buys a metric butt ton of text books so to get that money McGraw - Hill gave the customer (Texas) what they wanted.

  33. #33
    Appreciate the info. I myself not being involved with any kind of school system anymore (past for myself and no kids) I am very far removed from it all.

    So how do get past the idea of "go to school and get a good education so that you don't have to work as hard as I did" mentality of the entitled generation? I think we might need to see tuition prices so high that not everyone can afford it, so trades and on-the-job training employment goes up, and then tuition prices will likely level out when enrollment rates drop. I think the market will settle this one out for us. But it may be tough for the kids that are about to go into college and the choices they face. Definitely a young age to be making such life altering decisions.

  34. #34
    crashXJ's Avatar
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    No problemo!

    Another frequent complaint and on the "needs to change" list is how much bureaucratic BS exists in public versus private ed. Very similar to the argument about health care costs being so high due to the enormous amount of red tape.

  35. #35
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    Ok, big step back here.

    1. The government is already heavily involved in funding higher education. Don't believe me? If not, who do you owe your student loans to? This government guarantee of student loans is already a heavy subsidy.

    2. Governmental backing and guarantee of loans is a contributory driver of costs of higher education almost 4 fold, and college text books something like 800%, in the past 20 years. If you haven't graduated school in, say, the past 5 years, you have no idea what this pain feels like. Ok, I googled - 12fold rise in total costs since 1978 *no idea if that is adjusted for inflation. CDP in that same time period rose about 3x. So, you have a cost that outpaced inflation somewhere between 4 and 12 times.

    3. As I feel, the proposal of "tuition free college" changes the subsidy from subsidizing colleges to subsidizing students. If you are going to spend that money anywhere, why not rein in the costs of college and then subsidize the students themselves? If moral hazard is a concern, do you really think that's a divergence from what happens today?

    4. Sanders is promising to pay this (as I recall, I am not certain on all the details) via a fractional tax on financial instrument trading. Is this designed to be a 1-2 punch to pull in money from big banks and redistribute it to the families who can't afford Ivy League educations? Is the genius of this one in the details? I honestly don't know, but that's one of my thoughts.

    5. Much of the world already has free or heavily-subsidized education. I googled - of the G8 (if we are counting that high), here is the breakdown:
    France = Free
    Germany = Free
    Italy = 1500Euro / year
    United Kingdom = Currently the maximum 3145 per year, although there is pressure to raise the cap as high as 7,000 or even remove it completely. (as of 2002)
    Japan = average 30% of GDP per capita
    the United States = on par with Japan, maybe a bit less
    Canada = 12%ish of GDP per capita
    Russia = free

    6. Who on earth who cares about their country would be against a more skilled, trained, and globally-competitive workforce?

    7. I thought of one more thing: Sallie Mae is the quasi-govt corp that guarantees student loans. You can, as a speculator, buy shares of SLM to make money on. That means that, as an element of the US Economy, those who have the most amount of money (that is, folks who can invest) can make money off the youngest and least wealthy adults (that is, students). Does it strike anyone else as weird that the Department of Education provides an opportunity to profiteer off students?

    Just some food for thought. You can get back to your regularly-scheduled moralizing, armchair sociology, and self-validation about your own personal life choices.
    Making progress on the big build.

  36. #36
    Dave McDonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trango View Post
    O
    4. Sanders is promising to pay this (as I recall, I am not certain on all the details) via a fractional tax on financial instrument trading. Is this designed to be a 1-2 punch to pull in money from big banks and redistribute it to the families who can't afford Ivy League educations? Is the genius of this one in the details? I honestly don't know, but that's one of my thoughts.
    Shit. That means that me, a solid middle class working Dad is gonna have to finance everyone's education at the expense of my retirement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trango View Post
    7. I thought of one more thing: Sallie Mae is the quasi-govt corp that guarantees student loans. You can, as a speculator, buy shares of SLM to make money on. That means that, as an element of the US Economy, those who have the most amount of money (that is, folks who can invest) can make money off the youngest and least wealthy adults (that is, students). Does it strike anyone else as weird that the Department of Education provides an opportunity to profiteer off students?
    Who the hell else is going to loan that kind of money to teenagers with generally poor financial education, limited personal responsibility and no collateral?

    Intended as a .gov program to spur increased numbers attending college and improve the overall level of education in our society. The only plus side... as a fed loan, it cannot be jettisoned through bankruptcy. Otherwise, bankruptcy immediately upon graduation would be pretty much what everyone did.

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    Trango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave McDonald View Post
    Shit. That means that me, a solid middle class working Dad is gonna have to finance everyone's education at the expense of my retirement?
    I can't speak to the impact on your fortunes, but potentially, your (personally-owned firm's) days of endless computer-aided microarbitrage trading may be .05% less profitable. Since you have self-identified as aggrieved from such proposed legislation, where is your server farm? I like the new options in Suffern, right next to NYSE in Mahwah. Less regs in NY, and the NJ Rail line drops off right in Suffern (better for the carless hipsters taking the train in from Penn via Secaucus - those guys in the skinny jeans have the best acceleration technology).

    Wait, you don't do any high frequency trading? And, you don't really let other people manage your money, do you?

    Portfolio under 10 mil? I wouldn't worry. After all, at least quarter of your gains are going to fees anyway.

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    Trango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clod Hopper View Post
    Who the hell else is going to loan that kind of money to teenagers with generally poor financial education, limited personal responsibility and no collateral?

    Intended as a .gov program to spur increased numbers attending college and improve the overall level of education in our society. The only plus side... as a fed loan, it cannot be jettisoned through bankruptcy. Otherwise, bankruptcy immediately upon graduation would be pretty much what everyone did.
    Good points, and this will potentially be old thinking if the tertiary education funding model is changed. Disrupt the model and these old constraints no longer apply.

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    Dave McDonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trango View Post
    I can't speak to the impact on your fortunes, but potentially, your (personally-owned firm's) days of endless computer-aided microarbitrage trading may be .05% less profitable. Since you have self-identified as aggrieved from such proposed legislation, where is your server farm? I like the new options in Suffern, right next to NYSE in Mahwah. Less regs in NY, and the NJ Rail line drops off right in Suffern (better for the carless hipsters taking the train in from Penn via Secaucus - those guys in the skinny jeans have the best acceleration technology).

    Wait, you don't do any high frequency trading? And, you don't really let other people manage your money, do you?

    Portfolio under 10 mil? I wouldn't worry. After all, at least quarter of your gains are going to fees anyway.
    Well ain't you just little fawkin bundle of sunshine.

    Yeah, I do quite a few funds. I'm not that good at the market so I take lower returns to pay someone that is good at it.I should probably read more about his plans before I say I don't like them, but history has shown that in general, anyone that calls themself a socialist runs counter to most of my lines of thinking.

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