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Thread: Front Wheel Hop

  1. #1

    Front Wheel Hop

    A few times a year I am in situations which have me on the throttle for longer periods of times than most. Most times are in the snow, but other times have been sand, and muddy climbs. For the most part it hardly shows its ugly face but for the rare moments, the following occurs:

    Under moderate to heavy Acceleration, in 4 wheel drive, locked f&r, the front tires will begin to hop and jump rapidly. Coils rattle and seems to be headed towards some sorta violent destruction. This usually prompts me to let off the throttle to get them back into control, usually losing any ground gained. It occurs mostly on inclines. It doesn't seem to occur on long 4 wheel throttled drifts fully locked or open in straight aways or flat areas.

    Front Suspension is comprised of 5100 Bilstien Shocks, 4.5" Rubicon Express Coils, Tera joints on lower axle arms, rubber RE joints on Upper Control arms, and I don't know my front pinon angle for sure but would guess 6 degrees.

    My Question would be: Why does Wheel Hop occur and How do you correct or build to prevent it???

    Thanks

  2. #2
    cajun tj's Avatar
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    Same thing happens in deep snow with my sh*^! Starts to hop and shake everywhere! When ya let off the throttle a little...it stops! Goes with the territory! Best be careful...cause it's only a matter of time before ya start breakin that frontend apart!
    Last edited by cajun tj; February 8th, 2010 at 09:47 AM. Reason: correct spelling
    Jeeps...

  3. #3
    cajun tj's Avatar
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    Always happens in deep snow on an incline!

  4. #4

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    Could be several things:

    Control arm bushings shot.
    Shocks incorrectly valved (need stiffer) or worn out.
    Steering damper worn out or other loosness in any steering component or wheel bearing.

    Just some guesses.
    '98 TJ, 2xOX, Sanden OBA, D44, 4.56, 35's, M8000 etc..

  5. #5
    Austin007's Avatar
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    Didn't the guys over at TNT run into the same problem with the Hyline Hemi build? Same spring and everything. I think they decided to change springs. Might want to call Bob and see what they came up with.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by cajun tj View Post
    Always happens in deep snow on an incline!
    That was the culprit Saturday. We are not the only ones experiencing this. I was really hoping that someone would chime in saying, yeah I used to have a problem with that and did this to correct and now it's gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmaelcallme View Post
    Could be several things:

    Control arm bushings shot. All brand new and only have bushings on upper axle end but the jeep did the same thing in the same situation with bushing on both upper and lower axle ends. But will check those uppers
    Shocks incorrectly valved (need stiffer) or worn out. I'll have to pull one and see. They were working pretty good on the whoops later in the day so I would say they are probably alright off the top of my head
    Steering damper worn out or other loosness in any steering component or wheel bearing.Running Hydro Assist, I'll check the Bearings and components, but as of a month or so ago they were all in good shape

    Just some guesses.
    Thanks

    Do any people with Coilovers or air shocks on the front experience this?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Austin007 View Post
    Didn't the guys over at TNT run into the same problem with the Hyline Hemi build? Same spring and everything. I think they decided to change springs. Might want to call Bob and see what they came up with.
    Search didn't bring anything up so I may have to.

  8. #8
    I remember seeing a similar thing on when editing a bunch of footage from a Moab trip. This XJ, IIRC, has TNT setup in the front. Is a similar thing happening to you? I thought is was an odd thing when I first saw it.

    http://erock.rockfrogs.org/Video/Front_hopping.wmv

    I really donít have an idea of the fix, but just have a general interest.
    1993 YJ, 4.0, 103' WB, D44s, ARBs, SOA, SR, 37" Pitbulls, rear disk brakes, Hi-Steer and hydro-assist, sanden OBA, custom cage, tube fenders, boatside rockers, PS comp cuts.
    www.rockfrogs.org

  9. #9
    Yes, that's it but a little more dramatic and violent since more throttle is involved in snowy hill climbs. Inside the jeep feels like it wants to rip things apart. It can't be good for it.

    A good example of it from a year ago....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF-4xVhj2r0
    Last edited by Impaired; February 8th, 2010 at 03:28 PM.

  10. #10
    Austin007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockYacht View Post
    3) We ended up running a Rubicon Express 5.5" coil and matching RE shock in the front. We decided that the Jeep need a little more lift than the original 3.5" spring we had planned - to give it more uptravel and chassis height. This was and is a mistake! The RE coils do not have enough spring rate (for this Jeep), nor do their shocks have enough valving to control the 42's. It's not bad on the street and actually gives a really plush ride; however, when you put the Jeep through some faster paced driving on gravel & 2-track the front plows and wallows about. When you put some pedal (and you have lots of pedal with the HEMI ) to it in the snow, front wheel hop ensues. We have a plan and will cure this small problem in the next week or so, again we'll document and post results...Bob

    I really liked the Hemi build and remember reading it.

  11. #11
    GrandWheeler's Avatar
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    If all the joints are tight, looks like a simple damper issue.

    If you have control of your bound/rebound valve with the coil-over, I would try to stiffen up the rebound valve which would dissipate the energy of the spring, not allowing it to oscillate.
    I need a new hobby

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Austin007 View Post
    Didn't the guys over at TNT run into the same problem with the Hyline Hemi build? Same spring and everything. I think they decided to change springs. Might want to call Bob and see what they came up with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Austin007 View Post
    I really liked the Hemi build and remember reading it.
    They haven't updated since 1-16-10 as to a fix, so I guess I'll have to wait and watch to see what they come up with that may be a quick and hopefully cheap fix for the interim.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandWheeler View Post
    If all the joints are tight, looks like a simple damper issue.

    If you have control of your bound/rebound valve with the coil-over, I would try to stiffen up the rebound valve which would dissipate the energy of the spring, not allowing it to oscillate.
    I don't currently have CO's on the front of this jeep but it is in the future, which would give me greater adjustability and hopefully correct it. Maybe next winter for those.

  13. #13
    Oscar's Avatar
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    axel wrap?
    Wandering in the wilderness.

  14. #14
    To much power?

    My old Sami never did this.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    axel wrap?
    I got to thinking that this last weekend and will have to look at videos closer to see if the lowers arms are flexing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    To much power?

    My old Sami never did this.
    Cajun said he was experiencing the same thing with a 6cyl, so probably not, and I think I have a video somewhere of my Sami doing it on the big hot tub out in moab on Hells revenge on slick rock.


    I'm sorta leaning towards the Coil rate and Shocks as mentioned above. Will most likely wait until I redo the front suspension entirely but thought I would throw it out there and see just how common of a problem this was.

  16. #16
    tmorgan4's Avatar
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    Changing the shocks and coils could help the issue but it's only going to be a bandaid to help mask the real problem.

    I've dealt a lot more with rear wheel hop than front but it's all a similar issue. I bet he real problem lies in the link geometry. Post up a picture of the front links and it will be easier to tell.

    EDIT: Just watched the video.....trail looks fun! Where is that?
    Last edited by tmorgan4; February 9th, 2010 at 10:41 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by tmorgan4 View Post
    Changing the shocks and coils could help the issue but it's only going to be a bandaid to help mask the real problem.

    I've dealt a lot more with rear wheel hop than front but it's all a similar issue. I bet he real problem lies in the link geometry. Post up a picture of the front links and it will be easier to tell.

    EDIT: Just watched the video.....trail looks fun! Where is that?
    Front Suspension is pretty much all Rubicon Express Long Arm kit pushed forward about 1.5-2" utilizing the long threads on the lower arms on each end. 4.5" Coils are probably 4 years old though. Shocks maybe 2 years old with 3k miles on them and wheeling. Being a pre-packaged RE Long arm set up on the front, we would be hearing people complaining about the same issue if it was geometry I would think. There is a quite a few of these systems out there....unless the 1.5" stretch is making the difference

    My Coils are sorta Curved slightly from not moving the Spring buckets forward when I stretched it forward. Could be part of it ....


    Video is Wheeler Lake Trail on July 3rd 2009. Bottom of "Bowling Ball Hill" (I think that is what it is called). Snow is ususally wet, melting, or hard packed. You either push through the slush or have to get up on top it through the soft stuff.

  18. #18
    Bob will have that wheel hop fix for the hyline hemi posted soon. I saw the fix but can't say anything.
    V-8 TJ-Buggy 105"WB, RockJock 60s, 17" TrailReady Double Beadlocks, 40" Creepy Crawler Stickies, Atlas II 4.3 etc...
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrant4 View Post
    Bob will have that wheel hop fix for the hyline hemi posted soon. I saw the fix but can't say anything.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence... We'll see what happens, parts are going together today. We haven't updated anything as there is nothing to update - yet.

    From past experience, it's shock valving first and coil rate second. The larger the tire diameter, the larger the "lever" acting against the suspension compounded by the unsprung weight of said larger tire - the "problem" with the HyLine HEMI. 42's and Prorocks make for some serious unsprung weight to control and the RE stuff just can't cope. Nothing against REcoils or shocks, great parts; however they (RE) never intended to have them controlling 42's and D60s...

    Jeeps on 35's or even "light" 37s (MTRs) don't have the wheel hop for the most part. This is the norm out there, we around here tend to be outside of the norm and run larger heavier tires, bigger axles, AND play in the snow - this is a great recipie for wheel hop.
    Let's face it a HP44 or worse a D60 dwarf a D30 front end on the scales, coupled with larger & heavier tires making for unsprung weight that can't be controled with a standard off the shelf suspension. I've been able to "solve" it with much heavier valved shocks. The down side to that is the street ride goes away. Luckily in the past couple of years the externally adjustable shocks have really come around and have a "have your cake and eat it too" appeal - soft on the street and OMG it's a dump truck firm when the skinny pedal is mashed in the snow - all with a simple turn of a dial.
    We're somewhat partial to the Walker Evans shocks as the adjuster is on the remote res vs the shock body. On Da Lo Rider we're working with Rancho and using a set of their RS9000XL shocks to see how they work out.

    Bob
    T&T Customs, Inc. "Go Equipped!"
    contact sales@tntcustoms.com or 307-775-9565 or Facebook

    We offer a 10% discount for all active duty military personnel!

  20. #20
    You can only kind of see it happening to my rig in this video from a few years ago....deep snow/incline:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdqp0...layer_embedded

    I had a similar setup with long arms, bilstein shocks, RE 5.5" coils, and 35s.

    I later found out that my own poorly built truss was cracked, but I'm not sure if it cracked because of the hopping or if it was hopping because it was cracked.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by RockYacht View Post
    From past experience, it's shock valving first and coil rate second. The larger the tire diameter, the larger the "lever" acting against the suspension compounded by the unsprung weight of said larger tire - the "problem" with the HyLine HEMI. 42's and Prorocks make for some serious unsprung weight to control and the RE stuff just can't cope. Nothing against REcoils or shocks, great parts; however they (RE) never intended to have them controlling 42's and D60s... 100% Aggreed, so probably no real solution using the existing coils and shocks. I believe a nice set of ORI's or Coil Overs tuned properly would be the appropriate fix when I rebuild.....

    I've been able to "solve" it with much heavier valved shocks. The down side to that is the street ride goes away. Luckily in the past couple of years the externally adjustable shocks have really come around and have a "have your cake and eat it too" appeal - soft on the street and OMG it's a dump truck firm when the skinny pedal is mashed in the snow - all with a simple turn of a dial.
    We're somewhat partial to the Walker Evans shocks as the adjuster is on the remote res vs the shock body. On Da Lo Rider we're working with Rancho and using a set of their RS9000XL shocks to see how they work out.

    I used to have a set of the MX6 shocks all the way around that did this and yes they were nice to adjust and did give you both worlds. After my rear stretch build and tinkering I can once again appreciate the adjustability as my rear shocks and valving are a tad stiff for every day driving but convince you they are dialed in when you are crawling or jumping it. I will most like sacrifice street ride as this jeep's home is offroad. Although if it works well for you all on that project, it would be a easy fix until I get to my front suspension redo.....Thanks for the imput and I will watch your other thread for your results.

    Bob
    Quote Originally Posted by fatwreck View Post
    You can only kind of see it happening to my rig in this video from a few years ago....deep snow/incline:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdqp0...layer_embedded

    I had a similar setup with long arms, bilstein shocks, RE 5.5" coils, and 35s.

    I later found out that my own poorly built truss was cracked, but I'm not sure if it cracked because of the hopping or if it was hopping because it was cracked.
    Nice Fun looking Video, i'm sure it brought the smiles out.....I do see it a bit of wheel hop in the beginning of the video. I will check things out under my jeep but as of a month ago most things were straight, solid, and tight. I would assume your hop is related to Shocks and Spring rates as I keep hearing above. It's easy to ignore this problem as people are rarely in it for that long and it is easy to let off the throttle to correct. I just thought it would be nice to prevent during my future modifications. Thanks for posting up

  22. #22
    tmorgan4's Avatar
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    I think you've gotten some good responses but I'm still sticking with the fact that it's link geometry.

    Replacing the shocks may help control the axle movement, but the shocks are not the CAUSE of the wheel hop. If you want to get rid of it, you need to fix what's causing the wheel hop and not just try to cover it up with different shocks.

    With that said, different shocks may help to where it's good enough. It's definitely going to be the cheaper option and probably worth trying...especially if you don't want to hack up all your suspension mounts and links.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tmorgan4 View Post
    I think you've gotten some good responses but I'm still sticking with the fact that it's link geometry.
    I would have to go with this.

    I know on Isuzu Rodeos the rear hops really bad. I found out that Isuzu over did it with the "anti-squat" geometry of the links. Its something like 125%. Moving the upper links higher (new brackets have to be made and welded on of course) completely gets rid of the wheel hop. Wish I had a welder and some fabing skills to fix mine

    I have also heard of people adding an extra set of shocks to control it. More of an old school method I guess.
    --Dave
    1999 Rodeo LS 3.2 4x4 5 Speed 33x12.50-15 Goodyear Wranger Duratrac 4" Lift - Rancho 9000x - No-Slip Locker rear

  24. #24

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    The shocks are there to control the ossilation but the source can be link angles, tire wrap, slip/stick from the tires, ect. It might even be from wheel imbalance, either from snow caught inside the wheel, or the tires are simply out of balance.
    1994 Toyota FZJ80 - elocked, 3in OME lift, 315/75-16 KM2s, Warn 8274.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo42 View Post
    Moving the upper links higher (new brackets have to be made and welded on of course) completely gets rid of the wheel hop.
    not an issue to move them up and yes that would change the calcs a bit. Moving them up was part of the front redo next year anyways. I will see if I can get some measurements on the front and input them into the calculator.

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