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  1. #1

    P-3 Incident BUNO 161331 Class A Mishap!

    Got this forwarded to me from some of my Navy buddies. Nobody I knew was on the crew...Boy I miss the flying days

    -- snip --
    Take a look at this. Unbelievable that the crew survived. This is out of Whidbey I believe yesterday or the day before.

    Here is some of what has been passed from this event coming fromreliable sources:

    There's a lot more to this mishap. 45 consecutive rivets were pulled out on the stbd wing during the 7 g pull out (rolling pull), after peaking at negative 2.4g's as well. They did five spin rotations from 5500 ft- - they bottomed out "between 50 and 200 ft"!! They could see the inside of the fuel tanks when they landed. I'll forward the pictures this evening.



    They were at 160 KIAS, appr flaps during a prop fails to feather drill on #1 when #2 started surging. They bagged #2, but while doing so got to 122 KIAS. When they added power, they were way below Vmcair, and departed. About a minute later, just before impact, they recovered.


    Source is from DC. talking with investigators in Whidbey.

    Subject: P-3 Incident BUNO 161331

    I knew there was a reason I hated doing FCF's.


    Check this out...

    For your SA we had an P-3 Class A today (not a mishap but by the
    material condition of the aircraft they are calling it a class A).
    Here's the preliminary info I have:

    At Whidbey, BN 161331 was doing a FCF and shut down #1 engine, with #1
    off, #2 engine exhibited vibrations and was shutdown. With two engines
    off on the same side the aircraft stalled and was recovered at 100 feet.
    7 G's were reported to pull it out of the stall. The aircraft landed
    safely.

    -- snip --


    Broken Wing Panel Seperation


    Mad Boom Buckle


    Wing Spar Broken
    Last edited by SMiTTY; July 24th, 2008 at 04:43 PM.
    I'm just saying....
    [URL="http://www.calcreepers.com"]CalCreepers[/URL]
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  2. #2
    Captain Radon Steve's Avatar
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    I can't imagine the stress you have to put on a wing spar to rip it apart like that.

  3. #3
    The Original Opie-Gone-Bad!!! Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMiTTY View Post
    7 G's were reported to pull it out of the stall. The aircraft landed
    safely.

    Holy crap. That's insane!

  4. #4
    And now #BN 161331 becomes a ground trainer, eh?...
    The benefits from MILSPEC requirements are priceless!

  5. #5

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    whoa thats a lot of plane jargon... anyone care to translate?

    KIAS?
    SA?
    bagged? (shut off??)
    vmcair?
    Etc.

    óZach

    94 Toyota Pickup, 4" Marlin, duals, e-lockers...
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  6. #6
    7 G's??? IN A P-3???? Just so we're on the same page - this is a P-3 Orion?

    2000 Silverstone WJ / Quadra-TracII / 4.0L

  7. #7
    Jefe's Avatar
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    any more pic's? Like to know what SQ it was. I was up at NAS Whibey for a couple of months before heading over to Rota Spain to join up with VQ-2. Mind you this was 13 years ago, so not many people I knew would be there. But, being a EP-3E guy (recon P-3), I am curious to know what all happend.

  8. #8
    I hope to get more pics tomorrow...Yes P-3 Orion.

    I have a ton of hours in this plane....Loved flying in that "Sky Pig"

    I imagine they'll be examining every inch of that plan to see what else got stressed out....7G and -2.4G can't be good for any plane

    Give them pilots and FE a medal....I'd fly with em any day!

    Just for those of you that may not know the P-3. It's sorta like a C-130, the both use the same motors.

  9. #9
    Jefe's Avatar
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    except the c-130's are on upside down

  10. #10
    Oscar's Avatar
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    pfft props belong in the water heck of a crew
    Wandering in the wilderness.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jefe View Post
    except the c-130's are on upside down
    How did I know that comment was coming....It was either gonna be that or the P-3's are upside down

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jefe View Post
    any more pic's? Like to know what SQ it was. I was up at NAS Whibey for a couple of months before heading over to Rota Spain to join up with VQ-2. Mind you this was 13 years ago, so not many people I knew would be there. But, being a EP-3E guy (recon P-3), I am curious to know what all happend.
    I'll find out which squadron it was. I was an EP3J guy outta Willow Grove. VP-66 . I think VP-69 is up at Whidbey...Though I haven't stayed up with it too much.

    More to follow I hope.

  13. #13
    TwoDogs's Avatar
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    Smitty, I was in VP-1 outta NAS Barbers Point, Hawaii. 84-87.

    Alls I gotta say is DAYUUUUUUUMMMM!!! A little overspeed I'm guessin'

    Jefe, VQ sailors are SISSIES!!!!
    Pelosi is bat-shit crazy. I guarantee you she sleeps upside down. - Dennis Miller.

  14. #14
    Camp Cook Geek cheftyler's Avatar
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    Holy chit!
    "Blow and Hookers can change the World. - Gags
    Quote Originally Posted by scottycards View Post
    MJ has no lethal dose. You might crawl under your couch and eat M&M's all day if you get too high, but it ain't gonna kill you.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoDogs View Post
    Smitty, I was in VP-1 outta NAS Barbers Point, Hawaii. 84-87.

    Alls I gotta say is DAYUUUUUUUMMMM!!! A little overspeed I'm guessin'

    Jefe, VQ sailors are SISSIES!!!!
    Cool...Was in Barbers a bunch with VP-91 outta Moffett Field before I got out. Loved it over there. VP-66 was cool. Transitioned from P3B's to EP3J's. Got me a whack load more school after that, then off to learn the P3C before heading to VP-91. I miss the days in the Navy.

  16. #16
    FCF- Functional check flight
    KIAS- Knots indicated air speed

    I didn't think P-3's were still in service? And holy shit, stall recovery in something that big at 50ft at 7g's
    "The Jalapeno" '93 ZJ that occasionally gets some of my attention http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum//showthread.php?t=5024
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  17. #17
    0x0 Yota's Avatar
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    Wow I always wondered what that would look like. Amazing.

  18. #18
    BumperMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefe View Post
    except the c-130's are on upside down
    No, the P-3 has them on backward.

    I have seen a little over 4 Gs in a 130, and something like -1.5, I can't imagine 7.

  19. #19
    Pilot's Avatar
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    You know they're just old Lockheed Electra passenger planes. I'm surprised they hold up and the fleet is getting oooooolllllddddd. Using them a lot for fire bombers now. Tough old plane.

    I'm surprised they didn't do the FCF at higher altitude. Damn they recovered low. Very fortunate. I don't know what the engine out flight characteristics are on a P-3, but it sounds challenging. I might have been tempted to pull all the engines back, go to best glide and level until I got things sorted out. Sounds like the got too slow and it snapped on them due to the asymetrical thrust. The dreaded Vmc rollover which gets those MU-2 pilots, if you remember the discussion a few years ago. Ouch.
    Last edited by Pilot; July 25th, 2008 at 09:07 AM.
    Pilot

    "Have a little faith baby. Have a little faith."
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    You know there just old Lockheed Electra passenger planes. I'm surprised they hold up and the fleet is getting oooooolllllddddd. Using them a lot for fire bombers now. Tough old plane.
    Yep....Old plane, but still a pretty reliable bird.

    True they are being used as fire bombers now. A good pilot friend of ours was killed a couple years ago in a P3 crash fighting fires in California.

    RIP Brian Bruns

  21. #21
    jrvyota's Avatar
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    Good God 7 Gs and they didn't pass out, Amazing.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." Douglas Adams,
    "I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." Frank Sinatra

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomD AKA Zach View Post
    whoa thats a lot of plane jargon... anyone care to translate?

    KIAS?
    SA?
    bagged? (shut off??)
    vmcair?
    Etc.

    óZach
    Vmc is the airspeed at which you can no longer maintain directional control of a multi-engine airplane with the critical engine out. The critical engine is the engine that, if it were to be lost, would cause the most detrimental effects to the airplane's control.

    When you lose an engine the airplane wants to turn into the direction of the failed engine for various reasons, and you need a certain amount of air flowing over the control surfaces in order to have enough control authority to counteract that turn. When you're below Vmc, you don't have it.

    Lots of aircraft acronyms start with a capital V and relate to velocity, like Vne (Velocity never to exceed) or Vc (designed cruise velocity).

    -E
    The criminally insane and the brainwashed fundamentalists will always find ways to attack and kill groups of people, regardless of the method. Guns are not the problem, guns are what allow the rest of us to resist them.

  23. #23
    Pilot's Avatar
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    All true and I would add this which I pulled from a discussion on training in multiengine aircraft. Altitude is your friend if your going to due engine out training, do it at HIGH altitude.

    VMCair demos are just that--demos. When you actually experience VMCair, it
    is scary. Basically the plane is turning into the dead engine(s) and you
    cannot stop it. Usual cases for entering VMCair are when you are low to the
    ground, and cannot trade altitude for airspeed. You can stop the effects of
    VMCair by pulling power on your good engine (effectively decreasing your
    VMCair speed), setting 5 degrees bank angle away from dead engine(s) and
    reapplying power. You may need to descend to regain directional control.
    It is more important to maintain directional control than altitude at this
    point - it is much better to hit the ground wheels first at a reasonable
    rate of descent than inverted.

    Basically, VMCair is very difficult to recover from, so the best way to
    combat it it to know what VMCair speed is for your aircraft during all
    regimes of flight, and be aware when you are actually operating at airspeeds
    that would put you below VMCair if you suddenly lost your critical
    engine(s).
    Last edited by Pilot; July 25th, 2008 at 09:52 AM.

  24. #24
    Jefe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    You know they're just old Lockheed Electra passenger planes. I'm surprised they hold up and the fleet is getting oooooolllllddddd. Using them a lot for fire bombers now. Tough old plane.
    They are old. I know we had a few in our fleet that were 1967-69 flavors.

    The good thing about it though, is that after so many hours/years, the Navy sends them through Depot Level Maint/Inspection. What that means is they go through the airframe/structure and inspect for cracks, wear, etc.. and any AD (airworthiness directives) put out by the Navy are addressed and it comes out not new, but less aged. Also, they go through and upgrade avionics and mission critical systems.

    Unlike GA (general aviation) and Commercial, inspections are much more frequent and more detailed. We would go through on a deep clean during an inspection, and pull floors, walls, instrument panels, and vaccuum, hit corners with an acid brush to get ANY dirt/FOD, and wipe down with Iso. Alchohol. In the civillian world, I dont think people would feel as comfortable flying if they were able to see what was under the floors: tools, zip ties, fuzz, saftey wire, food, etc..... pretty scary.

  25. #25
    Oscar's Avatar
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    Pfft that aint old I worked 1955 model KC-135 in Okinawa

  26. #26
    Pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefe View Post
    The good thing about it though, is that after so many hours/years, the Navy sends them through Depot Level Maint/Inspection. What that means is they go through the airframe/structure and inspect for cracks, wear, etc.. and any AD (airworthiness directives) put out by the Navy are addressed and it comes out not new, but less aged. Also, they go through and upgrade avionics and mission critical systems.

    Unlike GA (general aviation) and Commercial, inspections are much more frequent and more detailed.
    Just to clarify, when I said they are old Lockheed Electras, the design is from the Electra, not the actual P-3's flying which IIRC were all built as dedicated P-3's. I've mixed it up with P-3's at the old Willow Grove NAS in PA. Don't know if they're flying out of there anymore.

    Yeah airfames can have very long operational lives. Look at the B-52. There are still a lot of DC-3's flying doing cargo and passenger work. They're even dropping turboprops in them now. Amazing.
    Last edited by Pilot; July 25th, 2008 at 01:15 PM.

  27. #27
    TwoDogs's Avatar
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    I know a couple of guys who are workin at Pax River, Maryland, on the replacement for the P-3. It's the P-8.
    Essentially a 737-800 with bigger engines n all the electronic goodies

  28. #28
    Jefe's Avatar
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    Is it going to be a replacement for the P-3 or the EP-3E? I know at one time they were thinking about replacing it with a Gulfstream G-V.

  29. #29
    TwoDogs's Avatar
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    Jeff, the P-8 is the replacement for the P-3. The Gulstream proved too expensive. I worked with an AO Senior Chief who transfered to that program. It was called LARACA.
    That program started up in about 1988.

  30. #30
    TwoDogs's Avatar
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    UPDATE: I got an e-mail from my buddy, Mike. Mike was my roommate in VP-1. The squadron that had the mishap was VP-1. The AC is going to be scrapped and surveyed from the inventory. Talk about some bad luck. VP-1 had a bird fly into the side of a mountain on Kuai, (1983) and had a bird do a wheel-up land at NAS Barbers Point, (1984). I know those are a while ago, but VP-1 has a history of wierd ass mishaps.

  31. #31
    For those who were impressed that the crew got out of this remember, Vmc Air is something that you get yourself into and is not intuitive to get out. We practise this evolution over and over just so that something like this does not happen.

    This crew almost killed themselves. The fact that this 1960's aircraft was designed and built so well is the only reason they are still alive!

    VP - 4000+ hours.

  32. #32

    Stupid

    No matter how well we design an airplane some idiot, or idiots in this case, will figure out a new way to break it.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by num1tailhooker View Post
    No matter how well we design an airplane some idiot, or idiots in this case, will figure out a new way to break it.
    Gravity will always win.

    There are more airplanes under the water than there are submarines in the sky. You tell me which one is safer...
    ☻/ This is Muhammad.
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    / \ Copy and paste him
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  34. #34
    TwoDogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by num1tailhooker View Post
    No matter how well we design an airplane some idiot, or idiots in this case, will figure out a new way to break it.
    What type AC, Squadron, were you in??

  35. #35

    VP-1 Mishaps 1983

    both the VP-1 mishaps referred to were in 1983. The wheels up landing of YB-7 occurred in May 1983, one month prior to the crash on Kauai. As I recall, the wheels-up landing was a night DFW. The crash on Kauai was (obviously) nighttime, too. Here's a web page about those two mishaps:

    http://www.vpnavy.org/vp1_mishap_1980.html

  36. #36
    TwoDogs's Avatar
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    RedRat, were you in VP-1?

  37. #37

    Vp-1 tours

    Yes, Dec 1971 - Feb 1975, and Jun 1983 - Feb 1986.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SMiTTY View Post
    I'll find out which squadron it was. I was an EP3J guy outta Willow Grove.
    I lived under a Willow Grove flight path, near 5 points intersection, from ~1984-2000.
    Last edited by Mcstiff; August 27th, 2008 at 12:14 AM.
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  39. #39
    Pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcstiff View Post
    I lived under a Willow Grove flight path, near 5 points intersection, from ~1984-2000.
    Next to the golf course?

  40. #40
    Jefe's Avatar
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    Ep-3j?

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