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Mule
March 16th, 2003, 04:05 PM
Hey all.
The Colorado Association of 4wd Clubs, Central district (say that fast 10 times) has adopted the Lefthand Canyon OHV area. Myself and another guy (Kevin) have stepped up and are co-chairig the adoption.

We will be meeting with Brian Rasmussin (new ranger) and the Association to start a new partnership in taking care of this area. This is going to be a major event for all of us, but we are really excited about it.
A special thanks goes out to Len Marks of the Association for making this all possible. He is truly a visionary and hard worker. graemlins/beer.gif

Please look for future happenings. We will need all of the help we can get...... :D

Greg Mackey AKA the Mule

Xenodank
March 17th, 2003, 06:02 AM
Glad to hear the trail is finally adopted! I was afraid that it was going to get closed. Myself and all the other members of the CU wheeling club will be glad to help out anyway possible (ex trail clean ups) we are all at CU which is only 15 minutes away from the trail head so we have fast and easy trail access. Keep us posted if you guys have any plans for the trail or need any help.

MountainJeep
March 17th, 2003, 06:46 AM
Nice!

Keep us posted as to what help you may need

BoulderBronco
March 24th, 2003, 03:59 PM
Sweet. I would love to do something as I used to wheel there all the time when I lived in Boulder. I always got so pissed at those people who just trashed the place. I am surprised it never got closed completly. Take care of it guys.

rockcrusher4x4
March 26th, 2003, 06:57 AM
hay what time and day is the trail clean up a couple of members of my club rockcrusher4x4 would like to come lend a hand any one have info please let us know thanx graemlins/old_glory.gif

TJeeper
March 26th, 2003, 08:29 AM
May 4, 8am.

http://www.trr4wd.com/lefthand_cln03.htm

The TVGUY
March 26th, 2003, 11:45 PM
graemlins/old_glory.gif Hey all, OHV Productions will be up that day filming the clean up to highlight the efforts of the OHV community to keep trails open. If anyone has any other trail clean ups or work going on this summer please let us know we would love to highlight your efforts on our program. We are filming at this time to air a series on local Boulder 54 if you do not get that channel a copy may be avaliable in the near future on DVD or VHS. If you want more information on our program keep watching the board or pm me. Henry(TV Guy) graemlins/old_glory.gif

jx94148
March 27th, 2003, 05:57 AM
Good deal!!! The website says pickups are always needed. I'll do what I can to get mine there.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Haire Ball
April 5th, 2003, 03:25 PM
The Auraria Rock Crawlers Club is planning on helping out! We include the Metropolitain State College of Denver, CU Denver, and the Community College of Denver. If you need anything special that a large group could bring, Let Me Know!

Steven Haire, VP
Haire@MSCD.EDU
graemlins/old_glory.gif

CharkTaco
April 14th, 2003, 08:54 AM
Great deal Greg! The area needs all the love it can get IMO

We frequent the area on pretty much a weekly basis so, please done hesitate to give me a shout if there is any help needed... CoTTORA will be there!
We also plan on having several trucks there for the clean-up on the 4th if any haul vehicles are needed!?!

Butt Head
April 14th, 2003, 04:09 PM
I sure want to make sure this place stays open. It's one of the closest places to my house. When is this cleanup day?

vb
April 14th, 2003, 05:28 PM
may 4th
830/9 ish will be done by noon

Mule
April 14th, 2003, 06:49 PM
The big thing the Forest service is stressing right now is re-learning the rules.
Brian has been putting up new signs for the numbered trails and has been stressing the point that the area is not a free for all place. It's like any other trail system, you have to stay on the numbered trails. Just because someone has made tracks across a hill dosen't mean it's an open trail. Anyway, he is looking at a lot of options for getting the area cleaned up and used properly. He has posted one shortcut at the top of Upper Carnage closed, otherwise that's it so far.
The forest service is really trying hard to make Lefthand a place we can enjoy. They hired a new Recreation MGT person that is very qualified for this situation. Bye the way, Lefthand is considered one of the biggest trouble spots in the US. It appears that they are going to be getting more funding now because of the scope of the problem.
Another FYI, Boulder County has declined to help
them.

Anyhow, If we all chip in and do our part, we can keep this area open to us all.

I have a meeting with them coming up, I'll post more after that.
Greg

Butt Head
April 15th, 2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by vb:
may 4th
830/9 ish will be done by noon Dang! I promised my old lady I'd take her to Denver that day.

Hairy
April 15th, 2003, 05:22 PM
Count me in , after bein stuck in florida the last few months it'll feel real good just to get up there and to help out a little to boot.

Comfortably Numb
April 15th, 2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Mule:
the area is not a free for all place. It's like any other trail system, you have to stay on the numbered trails. Just because someone has made tracks across a hill dosen't mean it's an open trail.Right on!!! That is how it should be EVERYWHERE. If is isn't signed open then it is CLOSED. This is far and away the number one reason that areas get closed to vehicular traffic. No one is exempt from this rule. When you travel off the approved route you are getting it closed for everyone and guaranteeing that no new routes are opened.

I also suspect that once this rule is strictly enforced the issue with people shooting in the Lefthand area will go away.

vb
April 16th, 2003, 12:06 PM
i just wanted to say that you might rethink the sign question. if it is not signed closed then it is an open trail and can be used !!!!
when you concider that the fs has a small amount of people and resourses then you will see that it is and would continue to be impossable for them to sign all the open trails. think about all the trails that you use now and have for the last 30 years . how many have you seen an open sign on? NOT A SINGLE ONE!!!!. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL THOSE SHOULD NOW BE CONCIDERED CLOSED?

the way it has been is the way it should be. OPEN if not signed as closed.

Butt Head
April 17th, 2003, 05:38 PM
I have mixed feelings on this subject. Theres alot of trespassing going on these days on private property, and it doesn't seem right that owners should have to keep replacing signs. On the other hand, I spoze the anti-motorized people would be tearing down the open signs on our public lands. I just wish people would leave signs alone!!! graemlins/pissed.gif

Hairy
April 18th, 2003, 10:34 AM
There's a lot of squatters on private and public property in and around Ward too. Signs are not always right, some times one needs to investigate where they came from. :confused:

Butt Head
April 18th, 2003, 03:21 PM
Some of those squatters are my buds. But I've never seen one put up a no tresspassing sign! :rolleyes:

Comfortably Numb
April 19th, 2003, 02:40 AM
The rule has always been and probably always will be that if the road number and or the little arrow sign or other official sinage, are not there then the route is not open. There are far too many areas that have former logging and mining roads that have been reclaimed to sign them closed.

vb
April 19th, 2003, 03:01 AM
moab tammer you are wrong. the rule has always been that if the road is not signed closed then it is open. study up my friend. there are many of us that are fighting to make sure that it stays this way also. in fact at least once a year this issue comes up and we do our best to make sure that it stays that way.

Butt Head
April 19th, 2003, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by vb:
if the road is not signed closed then it is open My driveway is not signed as closed, but I sure don't want a bunch of people using it for their wheeling trips!

Hairy
April 19th, 2003, 06:49 AM
Well is your driveway REALLY your land? My Uncle owned some buildings and old mine site near Ward and had a hell of a time with the hippies who would just move in and start living there. But then can anybody just put up a sign? I used to ride motorcycles years ago on roads that's now a golf course and there are signs there now. :confused:

vb
April 19th, 2003, 10:59 AM
is your drive way a private road? can folks tell that it is a driveway?
im talking of roads on public land, whether blm or fs. also roads tha access the lands.
the barking dog road is a good case study in this as well
the road crosses private property but it is a public road. the private property owner has no right to post signs closeing the road. the road is not his. in fact in that case the signs say private property. not private road. there is a huge differance. the law clearly states that as a property owner if the road is yours and is indeed private it is your responsability to post a sign. the law even dictates the words that you must use.
it is a large problem here in the west. blm and fs have folks that work full time to prevent private individuals from closeing and or signing public roads. just becuase a road runs thru private property does not make the road private.
there are many folks moveing into the hills that want to rewrite history and prevent the public from enjoying public lands. they want all that public land as their personal playground /buffer etc..
if your driveway goes elsewhere besides your home and if it was established as a mineing road then it is not yours and the public has the right to use it
how long have you been wheelin butt head? and what type rig do you have?

Butt Head
April 19th, 2003, 05:42 PM
Did I say something wrong? Of course my driveway is a private road. Is yours? I get a little worried when somebody tells me that I have to have a government approved sign marking the road to my trailer. Are you serious? Big Brother has a law that dictates the exact words I'm supposed to use to keep trespassers off my own land? And you are willing to accept that? You gotta be joking! :rolleyes:

Butt Head
April 19th, 2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Hairy:
Well is your driveway REALLY your land? My Uncle owned some buildings and old mine site near Ward and had a hell of a time with the hippies who would just move in and start living there. But then can anybody just put up a sign? I used to ride motorcycles years ago on roads that's now a golf course and there are signs there now. :confused: Hairy, I might have been one of those hippies on you uncles land! But my squattin days are over. I bought my own piece, and I got the paper to prove it.

vb
April 20th, 2003, 02:58 AM
i know whatcher sayin about big brother. but, the dictated words for the private road sign actually help get the correct message across. and futher if i do not see the correct words i question the validity of the claim to the road. i will consult maps and the state and county and feds and then i will know for sure whether it is aa public road or not. if its a public road i and you have the right to use the road.
i would not say that you said anything "wrong". this is an important issue and my hope is that we can all learn what the facts are.
always in the back of my mind i know that knobby (rich land owner from new mexico blocking a public road and forceing a senior citizen into court etc) is always whatching this site. my first question for you is are you mark boslough? then after that i want to make sure that when he copies this thread that he and others get the full picture. so there is more to what we talk about then just those of us here on the board.
also i want to try to help other users out there to be informed and to think and learn for themselves what the laws are for our continued use of public lands
not all home access in the montains is a private road btw

Butt Head
April 20th, 2003, 09:39 AM
I don't pay attention to court cases in New Mexico. Nobody ever mistook me for a guy who hangs out with rich land owners. Poor land owners (and squatters) in Ward, yes. Rich land owners in places like Texas and New Mexico, I only see on TV. I don't get too many people thinking my driveway is a road, because it goes right to my trailer. People use it to turn around in alot, but I don't get to out of shape about that. My neigbors have had problems with motorcycles and ATVs, but not four wheelers. Some people in Ward hate the flatlanders who come up in their 4x4's on weekends, though. Doesn't bother me though.

vb
April 20th, 2003, 12:28 PM
actually the road being blocked illegaly by this guy from nm is just a stones throw from your neck of the woods

Butt Head
April 20th, 2003, 04:17 PM
You must be talking about County Road 102J between here and Jamestown. There's some people here that are really torqued off about that closure but the Jamestown people say we are making there water dirty or somethinhg. I don't know if it's a legal closure or not but I guess if it is a county road the county can do what they want with it. I use to cut wood down there and now I am blocked out.

Mule
April 22nd, 2003, 06:31 AM
Holy cow batman, you leave for a few days and the page goes haywire.

Here is the next installment befor I meet with the Forest service guys tomorrow. Most of the lower trails are numbered these days. In this case, if it is not numbered it is not on the inventory of roads. At this point, stay on the numbered trails. The shortcuts and offshoots to trails are the problems they are dealing with. Real roads are open. Brian has closed some areas that are not a part of the actual numbered trails. I will know more after tomorrow.
Greg

Mule
April 28th, 2003, 07:34 AM
Post meeting info.

1) The playground area will be closed later this summer for repair. The road to the top will remain open.

2) Roads that are not signed are not to be traveled. They are not legal roads.

3) There is a good possibility that Carnage Canyon trail will become a one way up.

4) We are looking at making Lefthand a loop trail area and having a trail map system like Rampart Range has. Basically, trails will be labeled as to their difficulty and shown on the maps that way. Motorcycles and ATVs will have their own trail markings.

5) Brian is working his butt off to get things organized and signed. He is also working with private landowners at the top to secure rights of ways for us to travel across their lands to the upper trails. Please be respectfull to these people, they seem to be willing to work with him at this point.

PLEASE BE AT THE CLEANUP SUNDAY MAY 4TH. We need to show the FS how comitted we are to this area!!!!

Please feel free to contact me or post here with your questions and comments. I'll do what I can to answer or help.

Greg Mackey :D

Red_Chili
April 28th, 2003, 10:19 AM
Thought I would post additional info sent to me by Corey Corbett. Of par-tikler interest would be one of the sponsors... :cool:
________________________________
On Sunday, May 4, 2003, 4WD/ATV/dirt bike organizations in the front range area will be hosting the annual Lefthand Canyon cleanup.

Meet at 8:00 am where County Rd 94 enters the Roosevelt National
Forest near Lyons. Complete details and directions are available on the
NCTR website at:

http://cohvco.org/nctr/rides/lefthand/

New Belgium Brewing Company has graciously donated beverages again this year for the post cleanup picnic.

Corey J. Corbett
Vice Chairman, Colorado Off Highway Vehicle Coalition
Treasurer, Rampart Range Motorcycle Management Committee
Vice Chairman & Congress Delegate, AMA District 25
Member in good standing: AMA, ATVA, MIC, COHVCO, BRC, USA-All, RMEC, RMXA, SRAC

redrover
April 28th, 2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Mule:
Post meeting info.

1) The playground area will be closed later this summer for repair. The road to the top will remain open.

2) Roads that are not signed are not to be traveled. They are not legal roads.

3) There is a good possibility that Carnage Canyon trail will become a one way up.

4) We are looking at making Lefthand a loop trail area and having a trail map system like Rampart Range has. Basically, trails will be labeled as to their difficulty and shown on the maps that way. Motorcycles and ATVs will have their own trail markings.

5) Brian is working his butt off to get things organized and signed. He is also working with private landowners at the top to secure rights of ways for us to travel across their lands to the upper trails. Please be respectfull to these people, they seem to be willing to work with him at this point.

PLEASE BE AT THE CLEANUP SUNDAY MAY 4TH. We need to show the FS how comitted we are to this area!!!!

Please feel free to contact me or post here with your questions and comments. I'll do what I can to answer or help.

Greg Mackey :D This sounds like a wonderful way to go. The playground is a mess. Carnage one way would be good.

j

Comfortably Numb
April 28th, 2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by vb:
moab tammer you are wrong. the rule has always been that if the road is not signed closed then it is open. study up my friend. there are many of us that are fighting to make sure that it stays this way also. in fact at least once a year this issue comes up and we do our best to make sure that it stays that way. "2) Roads that are not signed are not to be traveled. They are not legal roads."


Sounds like others read the travel rules from USFS & BLM the same way I do. If the route designation signage isn't there or the little arrow signs it is not an open travel route, so it's either closed or illegaly made (in other words closed). It is clearly stated in the official travel maps that everyone should be using when traveling on public lands. This has been the policy for the 26 years I've had a driver's license. I'm not the one who needs to study up...

Butt Head
April 28th, 2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by MoabTamer:
"2) Roads that are not signed are not to be traveled. They are not legal roads."
It depends on if they are private or public. Like I said, I don't have a sign (with federally-approved words or not) on my driveway. If somebody decides my driveway is their playground they will have to answer to old Betsy, signs or no signs. Public land, on the other hand, is public whether there is a sign or not. I as a taxpayer have the right to wheel on any road I want, whenever I want, as long as I stay off private property. So this rule number 2 is a bunch of hogwash and the forrest ranger can stick it up his axx. Old Betsy, by the way, is my wife---but she packs heat.

vb
April 28th, 2003, 03:35 PM
mule is talking about this one area in particular and none of the blm or fs maps that i have ever seen have what you describe on them and i will say it again. there are folks out there that would like to have it the way that you describe -HOWEVER the law as it is now and always has been to this point is that the road is OPEN unless signed closed. i also have used fs and blm roads and lands for the sport since 76. do not let any one fool you the road is open unless posted close. with respect to lefthand
we have heard from mule and he is stateing the wishes of brian. right now brian has his hands full and is not able to post all the places that he needs to. (this by the way is why the law is the way it is) without the funds and time the fs is unable to post all the places that they need to so out of respect for brain and those working in that area stay on the roads we know to be open.
you still need to study up.it is a large issue and i dont hold it against you that you are confused.

Butt Head
April 28th, 2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by vb:
so out of respect for brain and those working in that area stay on the roads we know to be open.
you still need to study up.it is a large issue and i dont hold it against you that you are confused. But if its public land then its a public road by definition. There is nothing they can do to you if you drive on it if its not posted. you said yourself that the government has a requirement for the words that have to be on a sign to close a road. if they can't even follow there own rules then screw em.

vb
April 28th, 2003, 04:44 PM
but in the interest of good relations it seems like the idea might be to help the fs by spreding the word and helping with the signage etc . lots of the places that folks travel up there are not roads that were there just a couple years ago. what makes a road a road? folks have driven all over the place up there . not all the places in that area that no longer have vegitation are roads. and im sure that for awhile there will be some gray areas too. this feller brain is a good egg and hes workin hard spending time and energy so that the users up there get to keep useing. i say thats worth supporting.
butthead you never did answer my questions
what do you drive?
how long have you been wheeli?
and are you mark boslough or are you in some way related to him?

Butt Head
April 28th, 2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by vb:

butthead you never did answer my questions
what do you drive?
how long have you been wheeli?
Your a curious guy. Usually people give some personal information about themselves before asking questions about other people. Who are YOU?

Butt Head
April 28th, 2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by vb:
out of respect for brain and those working in that area stay on the roads we know to be open.
Our of respect for whose brain? How do we know which ones are open if they don't have goverment approved verbige?

Butt Head
April 28th, 2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by vb:
this feller brain is a good egg What feller's brain are you talking about?

Mule
April 29th, 2003, 05:11 AM
Butthead,
The issue here is the roads that aren't signed in the lower area are not legal roads. They were made by people heading across the hillside. Just because a set of tracks heads off in a direction dosen't mean it's a legal road, right?

Just because it's public land, dosen't give us the right to go out and do anything we want.

I would be willing to talk with you Sunday, I might be able to grab Brian and we can discuss it.
It's important for people to understand what we are trying to do in Lefthand and what the rules are. The more we play by the rules, the more we get in return. Brian has tossed out the idea of designating some new trails. I for one am interested in that idea!
Greg

[ryan]
April 29th, 2003, 11:06 AM
Both Glen and myself will be there sunday...bright and early.

see you soon

Butt Head
April 29th, 2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Mule:

Just because it's public land, dosen't give us the right to go out and do anything we want.

Greg Wish I could be there Sunday but I got to be outa town. I think if its a public road it oughta be open to the public, sign or not. I am sick of these national forrest closures and I think thats why people are making new roads but once they are made they are roads and they are public. Why is it up the this BRAIN guy to designate trails. Its our land not his.

vb
April 29th, 2003, 12:43 PM
did i indeed type brain and not brian?

RidgeRunner
April 29th, 2003, 05:04 PM
I'll be there sunday w/ pick-up, This is a great opportuinity to show the FS we care!
RidgeRunner

Mule
April 29th, 2003, 05:09 PM
Butthead,
What the heck. You aren't paying attention.
The roads were made illegally, what part of that do you not understand?
There are rules to follow when making a road. There has been nothing but people driving wherever they wanted to for years, and he has to figure it all out. Brian has to start somewhere, he is even giving us the benefit of doubt on some trails. He is pushing for parts of trails that were made illegally to be added to the trail list. He is basing this on his best judgement. If we start crap with him, we are going to loose a very strong ally. It can't be a free for all area any more, they will just close it. We don't have the moey to fight it. Ask Vernon (VB). It's hard to raise money for a fight, he has been trying for months.

Greg

Hairy
April 30th, 2003, 04:19 AM
Was just browsing this thread and am a little concerned. It seems like their is always some knucklehead who wants to blaze new trails anywhere you go and I'm not sure what you do about that, and it's good to see the forest service working with us. However there are lots of places I've been going to the last 30 years that are on public lands and do not have any kind of fs trail markings. I'd hate to see us get painted into the posistion that unless it's signed open it's closed. I know it's easy to set precedent. :confused:

Mule
April 30th, 2003, 05:46 AM
I agree,
That is a hairy problem.
Where is the line between what is a legal road that may not have a sign anymore and what is an illegal one. There is also the problem of was the road built as a right of way and falls under RS2477 status.
In the case of Lefthand, it's pretty cut and dry. The maps af the area are pretty detailed, they show all of the minning claims and private property. What Brian has done is go out w/ a GPS and basically re-mapped all the roads and trails. In most cases, walking them all, some he was able to drive.
I've been going to Lefthand since the early 80s (82), there was signs up in some places back then. Over the years I have seen more illegal trails opened than legal ones. I hope (and suspect) that some may be made part of the legal trail system some day.
Tough situation, but worth the time and effort.
Greg

Bill
April 30th, 2003, 08:23 AM
I'm no expert on forest road legalities but as I understand it the general law is open unless posted closed but the Forest Service can, for specific management purposes, declare specific areas to be closed unless posted open. I'm guessing this is what's happening in the Left Hand area.

Hairy
April 30th, 2003, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mule:
[QB] I agree,
That is a hairy problem.
Good one!
In the case of Lefthand, it's pretty cut and dry. The maps af the area are pretty detailed, they show all of the minning claims and private property.

I agree with that too, and of course Lefthand gets more use than areas that are further from the front range and maybe more designation is good. I just hope it is a way to keep the maximum part of the area open and not to start closeing it little by little. Maybe I worry to much but would hate to see some offical designation become the standard everywhere. Nothing replaces good common sense.

Comfortably Numb
May 3rd, 2003, 04:13 AM
Quoting directly from Pike National Forest travel map, this happened to be the one I pulled out of my console but every one says the exact same thing.

"The Pike National Forest has established travel management regulations to enable safe motorized travel, protect natural resources and minimize conflicts with non-motorized uses. Please familiarize yourself with these regulations....

All Forest Service roads and trails that are open to motorized vehicles are signed on the ground with white arrows. This signing should be used to confirm the motorized travel status of all Forest routes...

...National Forest is closed to cross-country motorized use in order to prevent resource damage, such as that caused by the unplanned development of new roads, and to reduce the disturbance of wildlife."

This exact verbiage is printed in every Forest Service travel map, the only difference is the name of the forest. The same goes for BLM lands & their associated travel maps. It has been the policy for as far back as I can remember.

I am incredibly disappointed at the number of supposedly avid public land users on this board that do not know this simple rule. It is clearly printed in every travel map. But apparantly too many people think they are above obtaining and knowing the contents of the travel maps for the public lands they are using. Apparantly it's easier to bitch about the rules they don't know and only think of themselves.

Butt Head
May 3rd, 2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by MoabTamer:
"Only a fool is astonished by the foolishness of mankind." Ed Abbey Moab Tamer, Already you got off on the wrong foot with me by quoting that ecoterrorist wacko abbey. The federal goverment has NO RIGHT to keep us off of OUR PUBLIC LAND. The writing on your map was writtnen by some bureaoucrat in Washington D.C., (not anybody who is familear with Colorado or the West) and it is in direct conflict with the law. If the feds want to shut down acess to the forrest then Congress needs to pass law repealing R.S. 4277 which is the law which gives us the right to use any road that crosses public land whether there is a sign or no sign. I think we should all engage in civil disobedience and ignore the rules of the little bureaucrats when they to make rules to limit our rights.

vb
May 3rd, 2003, 02:17 PM
posted May 03, 2003 09:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting directly from Pike National Forest travel map, this happened to be the one I pulled out of my console but every one says the exact same thing.

"The Pike National Forest has established travel management regulations to enable safe motorized travel, protect natural resources and minimize conflicts with non-motorized uses. Please familiarize yourself with these regulations....

All Forest Service roads and trails that are open to motorized vehicles are signed on the ground with white arrows. This signing should be used to confirm the motorized travel status of all Forest routes...

...National Forest is closed to cross-country motorized use in order to prevent resource damage, such as that caused by the unplanned development of new roads, and to reduce the disturbance of wildlife."


and i am disapointed by your inability to comprehend what you read.
it does not say that if the road is not signed that it is closed. (that has been your contention)
it says that " they" want "you" (btw if you beleve that the fs has signed all their roads then again you just dont get it)to stay on the signed roads. thats fine if you want to limit yourself to what they have been able to keep up with and what they want to sign. it DOES NOT MEAN that the un signed roads are closed (and it CERTAINLY does NOT say that the roads not signed are closed). the fs and blm know the laws very well and the law is that if the road is closed it must be signed other wise it is open.
as with all national forest they do not want you driveing across country. your quote does not justify your point one bit. it just shows further that you have no clear understanding of what we are discussing.

THE ROAD IS OPEN UNLESS POSTED CLOSED. END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!
contact blue ribbon or any other access group. learn the facts and come on back

[ May 03, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: vb ]

vb
May 3rd, 2003, 02:29 PM
did you also know that this same fs has a nack for closeing roads that should be and are still "officially" open? what they do if they want a road closed and can not get the approval to do so. they doze tank traps etc and walk away. no sign no nothing , then they figure that most folks will no longer use the road and in the end abandon the road. another one is to run along and fell lots of trees directly over the road. too much work for the average joe and again the public just stops useing the road. the fs for the most part can not be trusted. there are individuals within it that can be but fewer and fewer as time goes by.
if the road is fs access and is not signed i will drive the road and it is up the the fs to sign it as closed.because

IF THE ROAD IS NOT SINGED AS CLOSED IT IS AN OPEN ROAD by law

bsaunder
May 4th, 2003, 01:25 PM
VB - while I commend you on your taking up a fight most people only talk about doing - you are starting to come off a little strong at times.

To everyone else in this thread-
In high use areas where a lot of people go off the legal trails and blaze their own - it is a precarious situation to assume that it is open unless it is posted closed. As you said your self - the FS or BLM does not have enough people to keep up with it.
In the lefthand area, Brian is doing a great job, and with help I believe he will be able to sign all open areas, so in that area we should respect the signs and assume that it is closed unless open. If we say screw Brian he has no right to tell us where to go - then you may as well fence it off now as the entire area will be closed.
Another area that the closed unless signed policy would be a good one to adhere to is in the greater Hackett area. All the established roads are signed, to my knowledge. Every single spur I have seen around that area, that was not signed closed - was an illegal road, and most of the time dead ends 100 yards or so off the main road. If your unsure if the road is open or not - get out and walk it, most become very apparent as to whether or not they are legal roads or not as you get off the main roads.
For most of the newbies to off-highway driving, it would be better to teach them to only drive posted roads until they get much more acquainted with the area. Now that I think of it ? I believe that about every road I have driven off-highway on in Colorado for the past ten years has been marked as a road, I can say this with more confidence on FS land than BLM, but I can not recollect a road/trail that I have been on that hasn?t been marked.
Our hobby has too many people that think they can do what ever they want, whenever they want, and everyone else be damned. We need to treat all areas with respect or face closure of the areas. We (as a general community) are having a hard enough time fighting the closure of areas that have been closed without ?just cause? ? we don?t need mass negligence to force the closure of others. Just because it is FS and BLM land and therefore ?public? does not mean it is a free-for all OHV park, we need to respect the needs and wants of everyone else in the public too. Once we start showing more that we can work with the FS and BLM and police our own ? Then we should have an easier time opening more areas and new trails.
I generally agree with you on RS247 roads, but in areas that see heavy use, and therefore heavy attention from environmental extremists, we do need to watch our back and make sure the rest of our ?community? respects the area too.

As an aside ? I can care less if someone quotes an enviro-whacko, just because of their stance on one subject or another, does not mean they are unintelligent and have no wisdom to pass on. Thoreau, amongst others, has some great philosophical quotes; yet he is one of the first widely document ?enviro-wakos?.

[ May 04, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: bsaunder ]

vb
May 4th, 2003, 02:46 PM
dont mean to be rabid and i think if you check my post that i also support what brian is up to and i am also saying that in that area that we should respect the wishes of the fs and brian knowing full well that it takes time to get a handle on the area.
please read the last post on the first page of this thread. on my computer it shows up as being a post that i made. sadly i got the a and i mixed up in brians name
my remarks to moabtammer are of the general nature. he is badly mistakin
as for the quote of the inviro wako im starting to wander if you might have me confused with the post that butthead made??

i agree with every word that you said. read my post on this again if you would (please) and see if you might be looking at what butthead posted hes the one thats been saying that the fs and brian have no business telling us where to drive etc..

bsaunder
May 4th, 2003, 03:43 PM
sorry VB - I only meant my first two lines towards you, not my whole rant. It seems at times like anyone who may oppose you, you think is Mark, granted in your shoes, I may think the same. It just came off wierd to me reading it in this thread.

I edited my post to try to clear the confusion..

[ May 04, 2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: bsaunder ]

vb
May 5th, 2003, 12:21 PM
and of course in print my tung in cheak doesnt come across as such aparently. but we like to let mark know that we are thinkin of him though.

Mule
May 6th, 2003, 05:16 AM
VB,
Your tongue in cheek is gonna get you in trouble. :D Just be careful.

Back to business.

We had an awsome turnout for the cleanup, I saw several COLO4x4.org stickers. My group went up and started at five points and worked back down. We had some people from Jersey w/ us and Jen from the board join us. The area was much cleaner than alot of years. Especially the upper areas. Keep spreading the word "pack it in/pack it out".
The new FS Recreation director Ed, was there as well as Brian and three others. I met Brian's boss (very nice person) but can't remember her name now. It was Ed's first day, so he was a bit overwhelmed with people. I think he is going to be good to work with. They were very appreciative of our efforts to re-educate people and help the FS.

No matter what your view is on access to roads, we really need to work with them on Lefthand. My main point here is that there have been many roads that were originally made illegally. Until Brian and his helpers get the area under control, lets play it safe and stay on the marked stuff.

Thanks,
Greg :D

PS, Man Lefthand looks good all clean. We halled out batteries, a CJ7 Hard top, an engine, tons of broken plastic vehicle parts, a safe door, tires, and the usual bottles, cans and shooting debris.