What would it take...

[Willie G]

As mentioned elsewhere, the Forest Service will be having travel management meetings next month to address some issues and maybe create a new travel plan for the Lefthand area.

We all know that the place is overrun with folks who do not know the meaning of "Tread Lightly" and who love to use the place for a garbage dump.

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that if things don't change, the Forest Service will want to close the whole area to OHV travel based on the abuses of the land and trails.

What are we willing to suggest as an alternative? Make no mistake, we can't just show up and say "I don't like it. Don't close the place." That won't fly. We have to have an alternative.

Would we accept a user fee of some sort? Would we accept closing the trails at night?

What would it take? Your thoughts?

[ October 28, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Willie G ]

[Snotty]

I am a proponant of the fee system. the only problem is that it will take more resources to police it.

I really think the best course of action is education and a more pro-active response by the ohv community. And I mean a far more pro-active response then is currently in place.

I would like to see more clubs take an active role. I know of several clubs that only deal with their adoptive trail. This is not good enough.

I think more clubs should lose the elite attitude they have an embrace people that show up to meetings.

I think BRC, COVCHO, MHJC etc should take a more active role on these sites and help to encourage more education.

I think that we should work on the Auto-Makers and eliminate the commercials that do not display the Tread Lightly rules.

I think we should take a more active role in working with land owners to help preserve their rights and property and help us maintain historical routes and trails for future generations.

I think Left Hand is a lost cause but will reserve my opinions on that matter.

[pittsburgh]

I do not want to lose left hand tell me what to do and I will try to help. I am open to any suggestions that will keep the place open. But I lack enough information to do anything. Who do we contact? what are our options? and who are our opponents with the power and who are our allies with power?

Keith

[Willie G]

Keith -I think there is a certain element that is making the rest of us look bad. Their behavior may well cost us Lefthand/Carnage.

We need a plan to deal with them. And then we need to sell the Forest Service on our plan.

[vb]

i dont think mhjc is the group to get involved up there. in fact if i remember correctly there was talk from a mhjc member of the central clubs of the state association adopting that area.
aint seen much from em?? :( they have made it more then clear that their interest have changed toward charity work etc and away from land use and roads. dont get me wrong, they do have members that would ,have , and will be the worker bees toward keeping the roads availabe for use. just as a club they seem to be unable to make any decissions that involve something tough, or difficult
i know that there was a joint effert by cohvco and the jamestown group and sierra club and the northern co. trail riders and on and on for this grant and its use. there was a study and a plan etc to keep the area open and to do just the education and reclaimation and policeing etc that have just been described. in other words this was just covered over the last few years.
why would this need to be re covered?

[93PowerRam]

You can count me in...

But just like most Wheelers I dont have the knowledge of what can and can't be do...as well I dont know who to ask for help...

Is it possible to setup a spot on this web site for Reference material as well as contact info for people or groups willing to help?

Just an Idea...

Knowledge is Power and those who are Heard WIN...

Let Me Know

[vb]

nice idea!

[pittsburgh]

Well what are the things that may cost us carnage?

The litter wich is a contibuted to by alot of shooters seems to be one thing and the people who do not tread lightly seems to be the other. But what else is there?

I was just wondering why people even go there to shoot don't they get annoyed by us driving by them all the time? and isn't there a real shooting range somewhere in either loveland or longmont? Also why is it so hard for people to stick to the trail? I know some are looking for harder obstacles and some take vehicles on the trail that would have never made it back in the late 90's. Oh and those morons with winches that don't know what a tree saver is are hurting us too huh?

Well could we come up with a proposal shutting down all shooting in the canyon? And maybe designate a trail through lower and upper carnage? Like they did down through the play ground or kind of like independence is routed? People seeem to respect the tread lightly thing on holly cross too? And install winch anchor points along the trail? I know this takes money but it definitely seems like alot of people want to use the trail???

There has got to be something we can do!!!

[sprout]

Closing it at night is a good idea. That would eliminate alot of the people that go up to drink rather than wheel.

I'd post a sign at the entrance and other points along the trail with rules/guidlelines like:
no fires
no littering
stay on designated trails
use winch points/tree savers
clean up your oil spills
yield to uphill traffic

I'd mark the trail at regular intervals with wooden posts. Putting up barriers like they do at Independece to keep vehicles from going around obstacles or creating news ones might not be attractive but if it keeps the trail open it's the lesser of two evils.

As far as the shooters that's a tough one. They have a right to be there, too. I'm not that jazzed about the place anymore for that reason. Guns don't bother me. I've hunted. But the last time I was there they were going off all day long from what seemed like evey direction. Too noisy.

[Red_Chili]

As far as the shooters that's a tough one. They have a right to be there, too. As a matter of fact, they don't, not if it presents a danger or is not sustainable. Any more than we do! :(
Keep in mind, I am an NRA member and avid shooter/hunter myself. But in places like Rampart in Pike, or in Lefthand, I concur with limiting shooting in certain areas. Some folks have no sense, it seems.

[pittsburgh]

Putting up barriers like they do at Independece to keep vehicles from going around obstacles or creating news ones might not be attractive but if it keeps the trail open it's the lesser of two evils.

[/QB]Well it might not be as attractive but if you saw the canyon back in the 90's and compare it to now you will see a big difference in what the canyon used to look like. And the barriers would serve as a constant reminder to people.

[comtech]

I dont think blaming the shooters or trying to ban them is the right idea!
In my opinion we would be better off trying the same ideas we want to use in our peer group with them, there are local shooting club's that are open to adopting areas.
I also think that forming a co4x4.org club would be a good idea.
I am not new to the sight or 4x4 in general I just use my rig for other things [ hunting,camping] but as it get's more capable and I am running harder trails I feel I need to be more involved.

Jim

[cleanbike]

You can't just close a NF area down at night. People go camping (overnight), and generally have a right to be there 24/7. Education, better signage, and more patrols, with people actually getting stiff tickets for littering or going off-trail is the way to go. JD

[74BuckinBronc]

I too would be interested in helping out. I don't have the resources financially, but I can offer a little man-power. And now we have another opportunity to help our reputation with the fire cleanup. I too am an avid hunter and luckily have access to private land to practice, but even then I make sure I get every spent cartridge. It's sad to see these people who don't care and leave trash behind. That allows for people on the outside to stereotype a whole group. It just seems that there is a concentration of irresponsible people who use Lefthand Canyon. Maybe that's due to the huge amounts of traffic it sees being so close. I don't think charging a toll would be the answer. There are enough God made things already that we have to pay to see and use. I don't know what the solution is, but I do think a sign would be good with maybe a phone number to call and report people who are not obeying the law. It would certianly have to be a fairly indestructible sign because those same people who don't care, would likely destroy the sign.

[93PowerRam]

Since it was brought up how or what do we have to do to Report people either off-roading off the trails or on closed ones, or people who are seen littering?


Do I need pictures?
License plate number?
Is my word alone good enough????????

[sprout]

I'm not a fan of fees either. Just another form of tax for land that belongs to the people. The signs at Independance are heavy gauge steel or iron. Pretty indestructable. That's what we need at left hand. A phone number to call to report violations would be a deterant.

I think we/I should draft something and submit it with names/signatures. Need to start somewhere.

PM me if you know who to contact at the Forest Service/BLM.

[pittsburgh]

I am not totally opposed to fees aslong as they go towards keeping the trail open but how would you even go about enforcing that? But a good sign and designated trail and a hotline to call sounds good to me.

[ChiliPepper / Kenny]

I like the hotline and user fee idea. I'm not to opposed to the night closing, but would prefer one or the other, not both night closing and fees. The fees would be a little difficult to police. Maybe you could have a box that you would have to fill out your vehicle plate number on, put in your money, and put it in a box. That way when the FS shows up they can tell who is supposed to be on the trail and who isn't.

[93PowerRam]

I'm not sure about the use fee.....

But lets talk about simpler things.....

Like the following:

Clean the Trail on a Regular Basis(once a month)

Replant trees where the home owner destroyed them

build obstructions that prevent offroad off the trail

Posting Signs(to make it more obvious to the stupid people of the world)

Build a good working relationship with FS and try with homeowners...

These are things I think as a group we could do..

[vb]

spoze any of the owners up there needs anything right now????

[93PowerRam]

Maybe you could talk to FS or the Red Cross and see if they are aware of home owners who are in need of help......

Having them as friends could make this process of preventing Trails from closing easier....

Its pretty easy to sit down with friends and work out problems....

Its almost impossible to get enemys to even listen to what you have to say(right or wrong)

[Willie G]

When I originally thought of the user fee, I was thinking in the direction of an annual permit with a decal you could display on your windshield or someplace. Not married to the idea, that's just what I was thinking.

I also think that the trail(s) will have to be cabled off the way the playground is now. To make sure that everyone stays where they are supposed to.

We need to address the problem that came about when the playground got closed - everyone (or at least at lot of folks) simply went further up the hill, past Five Points, and continued to drive off trails, etc. I wonder if the FS would consider designating a certain area as a playground - where anything goes, you can climb any hill in any direction, move rocks, do whatever, just keep it inside that area.

Keep the ideas coming. The more we discuss this the better our chances of coming up with a good plan.

[Willie G]

Originally posted by vb:
spoze any of the owners up there needs anything right now???? The folks who lost their homes or cabins need a lot. Remember, they still own that proerty. They may or may not have had enough insurance.

Perhaps just showing that we care would be a good start - ask them what they need, even if we can't get it all for them.

[Mule]

Vernon,

WE haven't dissapeared!

We were working on the adoption, but are not going to be allowed to do it. I was told they wanted to do the travel mgt plan and go through their evaluations before anyone could adopt it. There may be road closures and didn't want things to get any messier. The overall plan is to finish the work started, get another grant and continue repairing the damage. Allthough I thought you knew that???
You can't expect everything to be done that fast, so give us a break. WE (the Association Central dist.) are working with other user groups (shooting, ATV, Motorcycle) to get everyone on the same page. IE each group has a specific area of interest that needs to be taken care of.
The general public needs to be involved too, so everything needs to be organized. There is a lot of people on this board that want to help, there has to be a good plan before we ask people to do something.


Your getting as bad as M.B. about slammin me & M.H.
WHY? I supported the BD issue, just not a blank check.
Greg

[ November 01, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Mule ]

[vb]

thanks for the update. we had not seen any memos are even a word at the association meeting and nothing when things need done up there agreement or not . it seems odd that the fs is putin you off some, hummm . like everything else up there i guess we'll haveta wait to see what they do.
im not exactly sure what you mean by supported??
or slammin??
if you are refering to the post that spoke of the club not being able to make tough desissions? thats common knowledge. as to whether they are trying to keep roads open: its very clear that if it involves risk or money that the club as a whole has absolutly no interest in it.i did also mention and it should be well known that there are groups and individuals within the club that do outstanding work .
as for a blank check : you all were told exacly what it would be used for.
blank checks are handed out more readily to the louder folks in the club. two members got a thousand from the state with no strings just the last state meeting.
you as the pr guy posted up here and learned how the masses view the club as a whole. might take a poll again and see how the pr is working?? it might be ?
as for you--- well im not sure what slamimn your refering to either but- i think we have an understanding reguardless

[vb]

here is the deal as related to me by the folks in town
money: they have a fund set up (no admin cost whatsoever) po box298
town clerk
jamestown co 80455
be sure to note on the check that it is for the victim relief fund
also i will be in touch with the clerk monday to find out if they need bodies and or equipment
they are still in the shock phase. some may not even rebuild

they say that they have plentu of clothes and coats etc
so it looks like money
the question is do we do it as individuals or a group and clubs
stay tuned

[Phazertwo A.K.A Brenden]

I think it would be a great idea to see if they need help, tho i am not sure what they would need?? what could we do to help them rebuild?

[Brian @ Terraliner Off-Road]

Our shop (and PhatJeeps/same area) is the closest 4x4 shop(s) to the Lefthand area. We are 10 minutes away, and would be willing to offer our support. I mention our proximity to the trail, because we can be at the trailhead in minutes, and always have time to help out in person as to what might be going on. That aside, what else can we do? We would be supportive of an entrance fee to help fund gates, clean-ups, etc. The last thing we want to see as a business, and as four wheel enthusiasts, is for Left Hand OHV area closed down. HOW CAN WE HELP?

[Gunter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Willie G:
[QB] As mentioned elsewhere, the Forest Service will be having travel management meetings next month to address some issues and maybe create a new travel plan for the Lefthand area.

We all know that the place is overrun with folks who do not know the meaning of "Tread Lightly" and who love to use the place for a garbage dump.[QUOTE]

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that if things don't change, the Forest Service will want to close the whole area to OHV travel based on the abuses of the land and trails.

for a place under constant use,i think closing 1 hour after dark and open at dawn would give some relief.fs prolly should stop all shooting in the immidiate area( i shoot a lot too,and i think what i have seen up there,there are better places to shoot,and safer places too.)volunteer to clean up,maybe some jail trustees or work release ppl too.and,when you see some dumbass blazing his own trail,take pics and tell him to stop wrecking our recreational places.call the fs/sheriff/cops/etc.dont just watch him go by and shake your head. step up,and save the access where you play.
i also think the fs needs to help us identify fs land,and where the boundaries are for private property.those land owners need to bring the proof of what they own and we all need a lot more gps units to help both sides stay honest.we need to defend the private property like it was our own--if you see some idiot on it,and you know better,tell him what he is doing wrong and to get his ass off of it.even if he is lost,even if he is just plain stupid.
you know the deal,if you dont come up with a plan,some body will,but more than likely,it will be way worse than any nightmare you can dream of.
scott

[ November 01, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Gunter ]

[cleanbike]

Originally posted by Gunter:
i think closing 1 hour after dark and open at dawn would give some relief.fs prolly should stop all shooting in the immidiate areaNot going to happen. (and shouldn't). You're not going to keep people out of the National Forest, and you're not going to stop them from doing what's their legal right to do, be that camping out overnight, target practice, or hunting. It's called PUBLIC lands. JD

[93PowerRam]

It's going to be hard to do those things if they close the roads for good....

Attitudes like that is what gets US in trouble and gives offroaders a bad name.....

We either find a way to work with these home owners...or we can just find another place to go when they close it down.......

Oh and if you think they will be happy just closing this one trail down you are in for a big surprise.......

Just something to think about.

[Gunter]

sadly,it is the gun control mentality.1/8th mile of trails at a time.or 50,000 acres.seriously,for an area with such high traffic,does any one really need to go up it at 3 am?does any one ever go up at 3 am to drink and do stuff they normally wouldnt,because no body is there to see it?the fs has no manpower to patrol it,but they do have the power to close it off.if the users wont take care of it,the few abusers will make sure we have to go elsewhere to recreate.would you like a carnage for hikers and mountain bikers only?self enforcement and pack out more trash than you brought in is a small step to begin with.

[Gunter]

jd,i was meaning restricing access,in the context of a seriously over used area,not all public lands in general.i bet you can watch carnage all day and all week,and you wont go an hour or so with out seeing somebody going up or down it.i know the off roading is far less challenging,but go to rampart range,and explore it.you will see many roads closed to motor vehicles.abuse,trail blazers,trash,and over use are why.go explore some of those areas on foot,and most are really cool places to go,but for some morons (and ppl who think they can trash it and it will be ok,high school kids,morons,ppl shooting trees,we have all seen the crap ppl do)we all lose out.

[Mule]

I think one of the ideas that has gained the most momentum is the user fee. I really am not sure what the answer is. There have been a lot of good ideas though. It will give us something to talk about at the meeting.

On a side note, I think it would speak loudly if the wheelers stepped up and offered to help out after the fire. I was told that no homes burned, just a bouple out buildings. If so, then there may be some work to be done helping the animal owners. I know some of the fencing must have been nuked.
Just diggin for ideas. Everyone up there was very blessed.

VB, I knew what the check was for you wanted. I was referring to the open ended suit (not being filed yet and MB and the other land owner trying to settle) and us having the access to more funding. Yes, there are several that don't want to spend $, I'm not one of them. I just want to make sure we pick our battles wisely. Spend it to maintain trails and we won't have to fight a closure on it. Nuff said. Let's leave this topic behind us and look forward.
Greg

[vb]

done then_____


whatever we are going to do to offer that helping hand needs to be NOW
what do we want to do? big potomoney? trucks and bodies???
if it waits its lost.

[93PowerRam]

Money is tight for me.....


So myself and my 3/4 ton are willing to help out.

James

[Mule]

VB & everyone else,
Until we have the travel meeting, we're stuck. We've tried to get them to let us do something, but Ed will not let us commit to anything. I've offered to head up work groups to fix things like the washout on Carnage (where people are driving down into the creek instead of staying on the road and potentially rolling).

This really is a bummer situation. We have all these people waiting to help them out and they haven't figured out what they want or will let us do. Other than the work that has been done on the old playground and the fences and stuff you put in (VB), there isn't much going on. I dare say you have more access to info through our friend up there than I do. I only get to talk to him on the phone these days.
I was told the downed timber/destruction also hindered their fire fighting abilities.
Greg

[vb]

the helping hand that im refering to is to the land owners up there that lost their homes!!! do we as a group want to offer help

[93PowerRam]

If you know who to contact....

You can count me in to help any home owner that needs help.

[al24]

Heard on the radio this morn that the Jamestown volunteer F.D. could use some donations. They said they were looking for shovels, picks, chain saws etc. I guess the lost some stuff in the fire. I'll bet they would accept cash also. I think this would also help out the residents knowing their FD was able to replace their eqpt.
Just a thought.
Al

[vb]

town clerk
po box 298
jamestown 80455
earmark the check for relief fund
i am wondering if we'd like to do this as a group . donate as a board ??

[Willie G]

If I can summarize the preceding posts, what I'm hearing is that a combination of user fees [annual permit or otherwise] and trail closures/restrictions [night closures and/or cabling off areas, similar to the playground] are acceptable. Right?

[vb]

im not for the night closures but fee is fine if the funds stay with the property

[Hairy]

Originally posted by vb:
earmark the check for relief fund
i am wondering if we'd like to do this as a group . donate as a board ?? I guess it might be good PR, but why be helpin the ones who closed the road.

[vb]

besides the thought that they are our neighbors??
if it makes you feel better punch the guy in the nose and then help out. not even sure how to explain this.
i spoze if you dont get it then. you wont. thats fine.

[Snotty]

I would think that a cash donation to the Jamestown Victim reflief fund would be the way to go. I would also do it on behalf of this site, maybe Eric can facilitate something.

I like the yearly use fee w/sticker idea. Not just a LHC use fee. Something along the same lines as the park fees. $42 per year gains access. The National Parks are public property, but we have to pay to use them. I fail to see a difference here. Set the OHV fee to cover these types of areas or trails specifically. That would help cover the costs attributed to these areas and hopfully help with patrols. It would also allow the FS to ticket people without the need of a larger infraction. An $80 ticket might just slow people down. More patrols would also help keep people on the trails.

The fees could go towards maintainance, fencing and signage.

[Crush]

Originally posted by cleanbike:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gunter:
i think closing 1 hour after dark and open at dawn would give some relief.fs prolly
should stop all shooting in the immidiate areaNot going to happen. (and
shouldn't). You're not going to keep people out of the National Forest, and you're not
going to stop them from doing what's their legal right to do, be that camping out
overnight, target practice, or hunting. It's called PUBLIC lands. JD </font>[/QUOTE]It could happen. Look at Deckers. We used to be able to camp/play there. Now you can hardly even stop there. redface.gif I believe They posted the restrictions at Deckers before the fires. I also heard it was closed off due to abuse to he area. graemlins/bounce3.gif graemlins/pissed.gif graemlins/bounce3.gif
Originally posted by Hairy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vb:
earmark the check for relief fund
i am wondering if we'd like to do this as a group . donate as a board ?? I
guess it might be good PR, but why be helpin the ones who closed the road.
</font>[/QUOTE]It seems to me that some "land owners" have a predefined stereotype ?all 4 wheelers are horrible people who want to destroy their Land. ?Every one makes bad decisions. four wheelers are defined by the bad decisions many ignorant people have made on the trails. Lets not define all the land owners by the actions of a few. There are many people out there including myself who care the people lucky enough to live on the land we all love. Helping these people would put a crack in the ?four wheelers are... stereotype?. I believe land owners in the Hayman burn area have already begun to look at 4Wheelers in a different light. graemlins/innocent.gif we are not all bad.

While I am on the subject of stereotypes. Discovering MHJC through my own eyes. (http://www.colorado4x4.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=006610#000000)

[ November 06, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Crush ]

[Gunter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vb:
[QB] im not for the night closures but fee is fine if the funds stay with the property ----


i am leery of giving any goverment entity any more money.it tends to go where it doesnt belong very quietly.

[al24]

There is going to be a fund raiser of some kind Sat to raise money for the Jamestown Volunteer Fire Department. The news story said they broke the drive shaft on their fire truck and it'll cost $1500 to fix it. Thats out of a budget of $4,000.
Al

[93PowerRam]

This would be a good thing for people from this website to go and donate money to show we care about the areas we offroad in....

Plus you never know when you might need help and if they have no Fire Engine they wont be able to,....

[Snotty]

Eric? Do you want to help set something up for a CO4x4 group donation?

[Lounge Lizard]

I think the act of showing up at the James Town fund raiser event would be a "TITS" idea!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: They need help, and we could use the PR after what "some dooshbags" said about us when the fire first started. :cool: :cool:
Does anyone know what the fund raiser is goig to be??? Food is always a good one for me! Ha HA. graemlins/beer.gif graemlins/beer.gif graemlins/beer.gif
God knows the fire dept does'nt ask if your an assole before they help! graemlins/old_glory.gif graemlins/old_glory.gif graemlins/old_glory.gif graemlins/old_glory.gif graemlins/old_glory.gif

I'll put Colo4X4.org on my check, anyone else?

[vb]

i am going to the fund raiser. who else??

[Willie G]

I'll go, Vernon. It's not like I have a life, or anything.

:D

[Snotty]

Tomorrow is my birthday and I was "told" I have plans. Imagine my surprise. I wonder if this is on the list, but somehow I doubt it.

Cash donation is being sent though...

[cleanbike]

I'm going cleanbiking (uh, DBing) tomorrow. I think
I'll stop by in full body armor, helmet and boots,
with cash donation in hand. (no kidding!) JD

[vb]

what time should we meet up

[Lounge Lizard]

As you can see by my watch, I was out carousing pretty late friday night so I was planning on being up there around noonish........ graemlins/beer.gif graemlins/beer.gif graemlins/beer.gif graemlins/beer.gif

[MissMyJeeps]

Question - With State Parks, you can buy the yearly pass, but also buy a daily pass at the entrance.... would it be the same way here?

Or do those w/o a yearly pass get turned away?

:confused:

[Willie G]

See new topic about the future of Left Hand.