Barking Dog Trail Issue....

[Hobo Willy]

This guy from Alb is amazing.

After closing a public road, he justifies his actions with alot of BS. These are the people who are against public land use. His aticle in an Alb, NM paper says it all. MHJC is not at all pleased with this rep bashing.

Here is his article:
http://www.darkendeavors.com/GuestWriters.asp

[TTBlows]

Wow, that guy's article hurts if the uneducated general public reads it.

What really happened w/this trail?

[TJeeper]

It is funny how he twists the issues and complains how people are tresspassing on his private land. Nevermind the road is a county road that has been there for 100 years before he owned it. He takes the law into his own hands, and guess what? He wins after destroying the road and making it impassable.

If we make all the forests roadless areas like he proposes, won't this cause more forest overgrowth and more massive forest fires than what we had this summer?

[Shepper]

People like that suck about as much as the people who abuse the land and disrespect private proerty in the first place.

It looks like the Boulder Lout is just a place for whiners to sit and b!tch, so I'm not sure, but they may allow us to whine back.

[Hobo Willy]

Please reply to the Chit Chat Forum for the Barking Dog discussions....I can't delete this topic.

[vb]

actually he does not mind if hikers and bikers use the road that his property boarders, he just does not want motorized rigs on the road. the road was built as access from jamestown to the town of balarat. in 1875. the statement that it was ever a foot path is also a mistatement. i talked with the sherrifs department yesterday. ( i gave my word that we would not bother them (sherifs) and that i would not use the names of these folks since they have better work to do then this) so DO NOT bother them. at a point that we do need the testimony they will be happy to tell what they know. but the short story is that nothing has changed since the last time i talked with them (with respect to their stand on what we did) the were no laws broken and we still have the right to use the road. the request still stands that in the interest of keeping the peace that noone goes up there to asserts that right. they believe that this will only be solved thru civil court and there is more and its very incorageing so.- to all those that would like to help set tight and we will continue with the plan. let boslough misrepresent all he'd like and lets just bite our tounges. some times bieng right also involves self control.

[vb]

ps someone change my title. i've earned lots more than an armchair rateing

[Snotty]

Keep in mind, RS2477 legislation states that a "Hiway" and "ROW" can be as simple as foot path up to a maintained road. Maintained can be as simple as foot traffic, vehicle traffic or a man with a shovel. My guess is this ROW was used for Heavy horse and wagon.

[vb]

you are correct in fact if i remember they wanted to do a narrow gage there. the money for some reason was tight there. the town flerished and died quick. and the investers that made the road pulled off and then it was pick up by others

[Mule]

vb,
Is there a specific land mark around the trailhead? I grew up living at the base of Left Hand and spent a bunch of time riding the whole area (3-wheeler). I never did learn names though. I rode Carnage when it was a nasty singletrack. We just called it the stream bed trail.
graemlins/bounce.gif

[vb]

bridge at mile mark 24 turn left off 7

[Lars915]

So is there actually a possibility this road will get opened again? I was with one of the last groups to go through before this guy tore things up. We had to winch boulders out of the road to get through, someone the night before had drug a bunch down from the cliffs all along the road. I also recall slight stream bank damage at that time, too (about two or three years ago). I've been away from the subject for quite a while and didn't know some progress was being made.

Larry

[jeepinaround]

You missed alot on here then. A person posting under the name Knobby Bobby got on here and started posting how bad Mile High Jeep Club was and it all was about this trail. There was some speculation that it was the owner of the land Mark Boslough and his wife that was posting it. It turned out to be a really heated disscussion. You can read the thread here Mile High Jeep Club & CR 87 (http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000030) I will warn you it is a long thread. Somewhere around 5 pages.

[ October 24, 2002, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: jeepinaround ]

[Hobo Willy]

Originally posted by Lars:
So is there actually a possibility this road will get opened again? I was with one of the last groups to go through before this guy tore things up. We had to winch boulders out of the road to get through, someone the night before had drug a bunch down from the cliffs all along the road. I also recall slight stream bank damage at that time, too (about two or three years ago). I've been away from the subject for quite a while and didn't know some progress was being made.

LarryLarry,

Snotty is looking for anyone who has ever run Barking Dog, please email him from this topic:
http://www.colorado4x4.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000905

[vb]

hey all
i have set up an acount for the legal battle. mhjc needs to take awhile to work thru their funding rules but the lawyer needs to jump on the case right away. so thru aboutpubliclands.com im am raising money to get this ball rolling (i hope the club and others that have indicated support will come thru)i need to raise 2500 in the next couple of weeks.please make checks out to
barking dog
and send to
po box 97 windsor co 80550
every cent will go straight to the lawyer and no admin fees.
btw i just had a great day with the blm folks and they helped me with case prep and they believe that this will be won in the favor of the public.
thanks for your support

[jeepinaround]

Great to hear Vernon I will send some money in the next few days.

[vb]

i have heard that some folks that have driven the road in the past are alittle skerd to say so for whatever reasons. what snotty is gathering (trying to) is folks that have used that road 20 and 30 and 40 and 50 years ago. we are astablishing use and it is vital. thank you for you help and if you have pictures specialy if you by chance have your rig on that road it would be cool

[ October 26, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: vb ]

[Philip Greer]

Is this quote on their site true:

"... In July, only a few miles to the north, two men in a Jeep CJ7 drove off a road onto toasty dry grass. It was quickly ignited by their hot catalytic converter. Before it was contained, the resulting Big Elk fire consumed 4,413 acres of forest, forced the evacuation of 250 homes, cost $2 million, and tragically claimed two lives in the crash of a slurry bomber used to fight the blaze. "I keep wondering why it is that we can't close off more of the backcountry roads and the places where people are coming in and being careless with fires," observed Paul McDaniel, who had to flee when the fire threatened his neighborhood. ..."

Wait a minute... D'oh! It is correct. according to this (http://cfapp.rockymountainnews.com/wildfires/moredata.cfm?fire=2096). That's an added misfortune. Did any organized wheeling groups assist with the clean up of the Big Elk fire (as some did with the Hayman fire cleanup effort)?

"The mass pays for the mistakes of the few" - anonymous

[vb]

yup its A misfortune for sure. i think it could have easily been a honda that sparked it. all the did was pull off to the shoulder they were not driving off road. from what i read.

[Philip Greer]

Ah. I didn't catch that (that they were not driving off road). So that little tidbit of information in that article (slamming wheelers) drives the reader to assume that the 'Jeep' was off road (or back in the 'forest' land) when the fire started - where in no sense was that the case. What spin! :mad:

[vb]

the fire started right next to the road. it just happed to be a jeep. there were no charges filled , the two men tried to put the fire out and sent 3 folks to call 911. the sherrif was always in cantact with the men ,they never hid and it was just the same accident that could happen to any rig. yup spin is what knobby bobby is good at . spin =desception=lie

[Snotty]

As many of you know, I was doing some research on this issue of my own. Many people, including Knobby thought I was helping VB in this matter. While I would like to say for the record, I am helping no one in particular, I am doing some research for me in this case.

I am finding quite a bit of information on the topic, good and bad for both sides of the fence.

Just some tid-bits.

It would seem that Boulder County did show County RD 87 going all the way across from Jamestown to Hwy 7. It was even surveyed at one time, and used on a map for federal tax dollars. Sucks to be the Boslough's on that one...

However, Boulder County has gone to the extreme on land use issues. Even so far as to supercede RS2477 legislation. They have even spent the money to close areas that they want left in pristine condition. Sucks to be Wheeler...

But I did learn some new things today as far as roads and private property go.

Boulder County has on more then one occasion, landlocked private property. So this could bode very bad for Knobby. Boulder County could in essence, shut down all access to any and all of the property in this area. Something that Knobby needs to consider. There are plenty of documented cases from the Land Use Coalition on this very topic.

Sucks to be all us.

If a road the crosses a piece of property for access, it can be closed if there is alternative access, even if it is very expensive to make use of the alternative access. And we all know that there is alternative route. Sucks to be a land owner that is in a fight with the Bosloughs over this.

But? And I find this very interesting. Knobby cannot just close the road because he wants to. He can?t even deny access to it. Why? Because if the road was private, Knobby would have to prove for that for the last 18 years, no one has used it for access. At anytime, if the road was public, he has to prove that has not been used in the last 20 years. They also have to have been the owners of the land for said time frame. Note: I said he has to prove it. Not us or any one else.

But now there is a map that shows that Boulder County used the road to collect federal funding. I do not have this map, but I have seen it. Guess that makes it public.

The road is still there. Boulder County recognized it as a road when they closed it. But when they closed it, they cannot grant access to one person or persons without granting access to everyone. So in essence, when they closed the road, they are technically denying access to everyone, that would include Knobby.
If I was pissed at Knobby for what he has done, I would deny him access to his property though mine. Knobby cannot make a new access route to his property without petitioning Boulder County. Have you seen the cost of getting a building permit for a driveway in Boulder County? On average, $130,000.00 Yep, that?s right, I checked.

So in essence, Knobby?s mouth may bite off more then he can chew. It may actually be in Knobby?s best interest to drop this case, but it might be in ours as well. It would not be beyond Boulder County to close the entire area and landlock them all.

I believe the phrase might be, ?Be careful of what you wish for, you might just get it.?

[Snotty]

On last thing. Knobby tried to toss the Ripiarn Wetland issue on the table. I checked with Boulder County and the area is not listed nor even considered to be wetland area of anytype. They have the latest maps on file and on the internet.

It isn't even considered critical wildlife habitat...

[ November 19, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Snotty ]

[Murfman]

just a though after reading this thread, if boulder county is violating the law, cant they be sued in state or federal court? i beleive the right of way laws are federal.

[Murfman]

after i posted the last, i found this

http://www.rs2477roads.com/

[vb]

the county has unlimited founds . i cant raise enough money to go the direction that im headed now. my intire lifes work is going on the block for this. if the county were the subject of the suit it would be in the 350k range more then likely. thats what the last families paid.the comisioners answer to no one but the voters thru the ballot box. by county maps i can document public use for more then the 20 years neccessary. this is a public road. at that point i dont care if the county claims it or not. its public and thats that. we will be driving this road soon.
the offer is still out there for the bosloughs. if they would like help with signage etc, to help ensure that the public understands not to bother the property while they pass on the road. call on us.
fyi folks knobby is hurtin and he is looking for any way he can find to divert focus on this. i have no doubt that the play will become dirty soon. do not give this guy any amunition to go after any of us (behave please) also any time he stops by it is to learn . i dont think hes got much on his side so hes coming here and other places to see what we have. in talkin around the circles in the county and elsewhere this is a mess. from now on i haveta be very careful about the info i share.
i will say this tho. if i find one thing that indicates that my position is wrong . i will share that. other wise know that the pile is growing to the size of overwhelming to support the facts that ive laid out previously.
if some of you would id ask that you call the numbers that knobby has provided. so far ive not talked to a single person that does not say the road is and has always been public. i think he gets confused where they say it is onor passes thru private property. the road is public and he has no right to determain who uses what on it

[Steve]

vb,

I put a check in the mail today to you. Probably will never run that trail as I live in Grand Junction, but it's a good cause.

Steve

[Murfman]

what about contacting blue ribbon coalition and see if they will help? they do this kind of thing pretty regularly and have $ in a legal fund, just a thought.