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Mystikal
October 1st, 2003, 03:13 AM
I noticed the rock area like that too. made me wonder.

karstman
October 1st, 2003, 03:32 AM
It was like that 2 weeks ago when Malamute and I ran the trail.

Mcstiff
October 1st, 2003, 07:59 AM
Has anybody noticed that somebody has filled in the middle rout of the second or third obstacle were you used to have to drive between two large rocks? Now you basically drive over a big speed bump. I have not been up there all Summer and Saturday I was sup prised to see many more bypasses that I had remembered. Has the closing of the playground at Lefthand caused people to try and run Carnage who should not be? Does the forest service have a policy about knocking down stacked rocks? I will try and take a picture of what I am talking about after I get back into town next week.

I also noticed way too many scared trees from winching. If you see somebody who needs a tree strap please lend them one. I really like the ability to go wheeling in the afternoon when I get the notion and do not want the trail to close because of irresponsible people.
Does the forest service have a policy about knocking down stacked rocks?
I will try and take a picture of what I am talking about after I get back into town next week.

Navajo1
October 2nd, 2003, 03:23 AM
Note to any morons linking here from the Balarat page of LIES:

This post is about wheelers stacking rocks on obstacles you would never drive or care to, give it a rest, this does not mean anything in the big picture of things.

Worry about yourselves as this road is all OUR roads and no one person has any right to dictate who uses it.

BTW, the Balarat page that linked you here is full of lies, think for yourselves, don't be a tool!

-FULLSIZE
October 2nd, 2003, 08:36 AM
Are you taking about that huge ass boulder that somebody put on the right side of the sqeeze? That looked like it would've taken some real effort to move. It looks like there is gonna be a new line there anyway, the far right side :( , since that boulder will high center a lot of rigs and most people don't have the balls to do the left side.

Comfortably Numb
October 2nd, 2003, 08:15 PM
Well, I know I'll catch hell for this, but it needs to be said.

Stacking rocks is not a crime. All roads on public land are open to ANYONE who choses to drive them. If you have a problem with someone doing what is necessary to get through the trail get over your eliteist self. If someone gets in over their head enough the towing bill will correct their misconception of their vehicle's and their individual abilities.

This kind of eliteist attitude will do nothing except get roads closed to everyone.

Camp
October 3rd, 2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by MoabTamer:
Well, I know I'll catch hell for this, but it needs to be said.

Stacking rocks is not a crime. All roads on public land are open to ANYONE who choses to drive them. If you have a problem with someone doing what is necessary to get through the trail get over your eliteist self. If someone gets in over their head enough the towing bill will correct their misconception of their vehicle's and their individual abilities.

This kind of eliteist attitude will do nothing except get roads closed to everyone. I'm not sure about everyone but, I know most of the guys I wheel with, when I have something that runs :rolleyes: , will agree with me. There is not a problem with stacking rocks, as long as you unstack them when you are done. It is kind of like being a little kid getting all your toys out and not putting them away when you are done. Your parents did not want to walk across the house and step on them, I do not want to waste MY time unstacking rocks to get the trail back to the way it was originally. I do not consider myself to be an elitist but, I do like to run hard trails. I do not care to go run what used to be a hard trail, only to find that the Paving Crew has been there and left it that way. UNSTACK, that is all we ask. ;)

The other point to this is, if I am not allowed to make the trail harder to suit my interests, why should someone be allowed to make it easier to suit theirs?

[ October 03, 2003, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Camp ]

Butt Head
October 3rd, 2003, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by MoabTamer:
Well, I know I'll catch hell for this, but it needs to be said.

Stacking rocks is not a crime. All roads on public land are open to ANYONE who choses to drive them. If you have a problem with someone doing what is necessary to get through the trail get over your eliteist self. If someone gets in over their head enough the towing bill will correct their misconception of their vehicle's and their individual abilities.

This kind of eliteist attitude will do nothing except get roads closed to everyone. for once I agree wtih moab tamer. there are alot of roads in our area that are in alot worse shape than they were 20 or 30 years ago. I have personally fixed bad places only to come back a month later to have to fix them again because some kid in a fancy rig tore out my fix. remember these roads were made to get from a to b and belong to everybody. I can't afford to modify my jeep but I think I still have a right to drive on public roads. I hate agreeing with a guy that quotes edward abby though. graemlins/thefinger.gif

Eric
October 3rd, 2003, 06:11 AM
I agree with Camp, stacking rocks isn't about elitism, it's about leaving the trail as you found it. If you have to stack rocks to get thru a trail, then simply unstack them when you're past the obstical. Then consider upgrading your rig so that the next time you can run the trail without moving rocks.

Upgrade your rig, don't downgrade the trail, and leave the trail as you found it! Leaving a pile of rocks in the trail is, IMO, vandalism.

pittsburgh
October 3rd, 2003, 07:54 AM
Yes I would have to say when the play area was closed there were plenty of vehicles on carnage that probably shouldn't of been there I watched a few semi stock vehicles banging thier way up and down, The trail needs a really challenging gate keeper obstacle graemlins/flipoff.gif , to act as a selective force and select for the well equipped and skilled types :D and to send home the others graemlins/crybaby.gif .

pittsburgh
October 3rd, 2003, 07:56 AM
I suppose butthead has a good point I guess if you stack rock put them away when you are done, kind of like the weights at the gym and then no harm done

Scott@Rockstomper
October 3rd, 2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Butt Head:
remember these roads were made to get from a to b and belong to everybody. I can't afford to modify my jeep but I think I still have a right to drive on public roads. Most of the trails at-issue for rock stacking, do not go from point A to point B. They exist solely for the challenge of driving a particular route.

Carnage is an excellent example of this. There is a passable-by-Subaru road that goes every bit as far as Carnage Canyon does (and then some); don't try to claim that you *have* to take the Carnage route to get to a particular vista point. You don't; there are routes that go the same place, that are easy drives. Carnage itself, exists solely to be a challenging route; if it didn't even connect to the rest of the trail system at the top, there would be no loss of access.

Independence is another example. The road doesn't go anywhere at all, it just goes in a loop. There are no scenic-vista points on it. It's a trench, in the desert, full of rocks. It exists to be a playground for extreme rigs.

What seems to be lacking is that it's OK to winch over an obstacle that is otherwise impassable to you. Or to take a strap. In fact, it's preferable to do that, than to stack rocks to make the obstacle driveable. Stacking rocks is not treading lightly; it's modifying the environment to suit your vehicle.

Colorado has chain control laws; is it your right to drive a 2WD vehicle past chain control, without proper equipment, in poor conditions, because it's a public road?

We have a huge number of public roads that are not passable to all vehicles. If I have a plated rock buggy (check the state laws on what I can drive on the street, legally) that can only go 25mph, is it reasonable for me to drive it on I-70 in Denver, during rush hour traffic? It's my right, by the same logic.

There are roads in many places with length, weight, height, width, and other restrictions on what can and cannot drive there. If I drive a 13k pound street legal vehicle, on a road with a 7k weight limit, and damage it, I'm liable for the damage done to the road... despite my "right" to drive on that road. It's a public road, after all, and I *am* the public.

If I stack rocks into a trail to make it harder, you'd scream bloody murder about the vandalism; if I cut trees to reroute a trail onto an easier (or harder) route, that would similarly be vandalism.

Just to throw a counterexample to my own argument, Holy Cross goes from point A to point B. The weather (heavy snow) in the area, counters the effects of rock stacking, as the heavy snows will move the stacked rocks back out of the obstacles. Rerouting the trail, and/or winching rocks in/out of obstacles, is still vandalism, and environmentally destructive. Hence why there are winch anchors on the trail, and signs warning of the difficulty of the trail, and the recommended vehicle specifications. Is it your right, as a member of the roadgoing public, to take a 'dozer up to Holy Cross City, to smooth the road for easier travel? Or would that also be vandalism? Maybe it's a fact of life that the trail is difficult; it is known for being difficult, and it is not for individual road users to change the difficulty of a road, but rather for individual road users to determine where they should or should not take their vehicle(s).

Another example: Is it my right to install a retainer/barrier wall on Oh My God Road, because I'm scared of heights? I'm not even changing the road in so doing, just adding some extra safety-improvements to the side of it. But it's still vandalism (in this case, more likely to be considered littering on a grotesque scale) despite that it makes that public road, more suitable for common traffic.

Chuck Henry - GollyGwagen
October 3rd, 2003, 09:51 AM
Isn't that kind of assuming the trail actually takes you somewhere? Like Independance... you drive to the middle of no where and drop into a gulch for 6 hours and then end up about 100' from where you started!

Obviously each trail is different, but isn't that why there are trail ratings. If you like your trails about a 5, don't go on a 9! There is almost always somthing similar you can run that won't be as hard.

I'm not against rock stacking, but this is trail modification. If you roll a huge rock into a trail that can't be removed easily... well you've made the decision about how hard that trail should be for everyone else.

Rule of thumb, if you can't move it by hand... don't move it!

Aaron
October 3rd, 2003, 10:27 AM
Guys, this is an easy one... TREAD LIGHTLY!

Travel and recreate with minimum impact

Respect the environment and the rights of others

Educate yourself--plan and prepare before you go

Allow for future use of the outdoors--leave it better than you found it

Discover the rewards of responsible recreation


No where in this explaination does it say that it is ok to modify a road. When they say "leave it better than you found it", it doesn't mean that you should hire a paving crew... It means pick up your trash, and any other trash floating around.

I have to agree with Chad, Eric, Scott, pittsburgh, and Henry. If you have to modify the trail to use it, you shouldn't be there! Think about it, yes you COULD ride a motorcycle up Pikes Peak during winter, but why the hell would you even try?

Sorry for the rant, but I am sick and tired of watching the few harder trails that we have in this state get "paved" or shut down because some idiots decided they had to make a bypass...

Yes, some rock stacking is needed sometimes, but how hard is it to unstack them when you are done?

The Yetti
October 3rd, 2003, 02:20 PM
If you make a gatekeeper obstacle at carnage, It would plug the trail for the entire weekend. reason being that there would be highschool kids, drunk rednecks, and generally stupid people stuck on it all weekend trying to drive their stock suburban over it because they have the right to try and have no realistic picture of what their ride will or will not do. just my opinion, but I still think it would be cool to put something along those lines in there, just for the challenge factor.

J Kimmel
October 5th, 2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by The Yetti:
If you make a gatekeeper obstacle at carnage, It would plug the trail for the entire weekend. reason being that there would be highschool kids, drunk rednecks, and generally stupid people stuck on it all weekend trying to drive their stock suburban over it because they have the right to try and have no realistic picture of what their ride will or will not do. just my opinion, but I still think it would be cool to put something along those lines in there, just for the challenge factor. I don't think there's as many drunk rednecks, kids or other up there, its probably 75% of the people on this board. There are most that don't have lockers front and rear, low gears or other. I saw it every single time I went up there last winter. Most had maybe one locker, 33's and couldn't make much in the way of progress.
There's too many who couldn't make it over a gatekeeper obstacle and many are on this board. I'd love to have one put up to keep most out, but that wouldn't really work, I don't think it would be fair. I agree with what Scott said, but the argument is what point does your vehicle have to be to challenge it? I dunno, I just go around them.

Mcstiff
October 6th, 2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by The Yetti:
If you make a gatekeeper obstacle at carnage, It would plug the trail for the entire weekend. reason being that there would be highschool kids, drunk rednecks, and generally stupid people stuck on it all weekend trying to drive their stock suburban over it because they have the right to try and have no realistic picture of what their ride will or will not do. just my opinion, but I still think it would be cool to put something along those lines in there, just for the challenge factor.
Where would you rathe have them stuck? the begining or the middle so that you get half way un a trail then have to sit and wait or turn around and go aganst the flow?

When I said rock stacking I didnt mean five rocks. Picture two 2-3' high boulder with a ~85" gap between them which you had to drive through. Now the gap is mostly filled in and there is a chance of high centering but I still think that more people can get passed it and this has caused the formation of more bypasses up stream.