Beer becoming elitist?

[_CJ]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but it seems to me like the micro-brew and home-brew world is becoming too elitist and snobby.

When I started getting into beer and going to the GABF fifteen years ago, it seemed like more fun. Now people are just WAY too serious. The last few beer events I've gone to made me feel like I was at a wine tasting or something. All the talk of food pairings and only drinking beer served at it's optimum temperature, etc, etc, etc.

Variety is what has always been the most fun for me, but now everyone seems to be following the trends like sheep to the slaughter. Belgians, mega-hopped, oak aged, and most recently....BIG beers.

There was a time when New Belgium Brewing had some of the most boring offerings out there, but now it seems like they are the only ones willing to try something off the wall. They're not all great, but at least they're different. I really wish more breweries would step outside the box and get back to what made micro-brews take off in the early 90's. Brewing something different because it's fun.

[denverd0n]

It has caught on with enough people to have become big business. That always takes the fun out of anything!

[D67]

All the talk of food pairings and only drinking beer served at it's optimum temperature, etc, etc, etc.:eek: :eek: :eek: Away with their Man Cards! Beer is for drinkin'. Now it's off to the commercial beers thread :D...

[1BGDOG]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but it seems to me like the micro-brew and home-brew world is becoming too elitist and snobby. Not as bad as Cork Dorks.

[/quote] When I started getting into beer and going to the GABF fifteen years ago, it seemed like more fun. Now people are just WAY too serious. The last few beer events I've gone to made me feel like I was at a wine tasting or something. All the talk of food pairings and only drinking beer served at it's optimum temperature, etc, etc, etc.[/quote]

Beer is very similar to wine so the higher alcohol beers with more yeast and sugars will taste different at different temps and aging does bring out different characteristics that might not be there in the early stages.

[/quote] Variety is what has always been the most fun for me, but now everyone seems to be following the trends like sheep to the slaughter. Belgians, mega-hopped, oak aged, and most recently....BIG beers.[/quote]

Seems to me like a lot of variety there!!!!

[/quote] There was a time when New Belgium Brewing had some of the most boring offerings out there, but now it seems like they are the only ones willing to try something off the wall. They're not all great, but at least they're different.[/quote]

They truly make some good beers that are "training wheels" beers. If you want off the wall get some Dogfish Head, they make very interesting and tasty beers. Think spirulina, think high octane Pils.

[/quote] I really wish more breweries would step outside the box and get back to what made micro-brews take off in the early 90's. Brewing something different because it's fun.[/quote]
Again numerous breweries have stepped outside the box Boston Brewery, Avery, Dogfish Head, Great Divide, Bristol just to name a few and even AB; this past Christmas they had big beer gift sets.

[Snotty]

Make it what you want. I just like to drink it, and I also dig researching the classic styles and were it came from. There is a lot of history with beer, more so then wine... And people are finally catching on that there is more to it then just drinking it. If you thought, you never would have gotten into Homebrewing in the first place.

[_CJ]

Not as bad as Cork Dorks.

Speaking of Bristol...it was at the Firkin Rendezvous that I really started to notice the herd mentality of the industry. This was an event where brewers were supposed to bring a Firkin of something different and creative, but for some reason most were very similar. I found New Belgium's offering to be very interesting as well as the not-so blueberry, but most people just brushed them off because they didn't fit the current trend.

On the temperature thing, I'm well aware of how the complexity of a beer can change as it warms, and I can appreciate it, but when I start to hear people talk about how it tasted like this at 45 degrees and like that at 55 degrees it makes me sick. What are they doing? Sitting there with a ****ing thermometer checking the temp before each sip? Writing down their impressions in a tasting journal? It's beer for Christ's sake!

They truly make some good beers that are "training wheels" beers.
This is exactly the mentality I'm talking about. You speak as though you have a higher appreciation for beer or a better sense of taste. As if I haven't had beer from Avery, Great Divide, Dogfish Head, etc., or as if beer from these breweries is somehow better because they come from smaller brewies or because some of them are more expensive. I can't decide if Dogfish Head is really that full of themselves to charge so much for their beer, or if they're laughing all the way to the bank. It really seems to me as if they're selling status, and people are taking it hook, line and sinker.....and that's the problem!

[BradyTrailRats]

Whats the big deal just drink Bud and enjoy :)

[Jeepindog]

If you cannot appreciate that many people truly enjoy craft- and microbrewed beer, for various reasons, then don't subject yourself to those people. Enjoy the beer you like for the reasons you like. If you're worried that too many people like the same thing you already liked, and now it's not special, then suck it up. Literally. Having *MORE* people getting deeply into craft beers will only help the industry. If you had a legitimate bitch about people going ape-shit for Bud Select, then I might agree with you a little more. There are some amazing beers being brewed in this country, and the rest of the brewing WORLD has taken notice. Most of the prominent brewers in Belgium have stated that the most interesting beers in the world are being brewed in the United States. Many styles, such as porter, were all but dead before being revived by the likes of Anchor Brewing. To say that there isn't any variety tells me that you're not looking. At a glance it appears that everyone is brewing a lot of similar stuff, but you need to dig a little deeper into the mash tun and find the gems. A lot of beers being brewed in the last couple of years have indeed been intentionally crafted to develop very intense complexity. Not just hoppiness, but real complexity. Many of these styles do taste different at different temperatures, and it's due to several factors, such as overall protein content, residual lipids, esterification, alcohol content, phenolics, etc. A colder beer will hide alcohol warmth, obviously. There are a whole bunch of factors which determine how a brew will taste at different temps. The more knowledge of beer that more people have will only make brewers make a better product. Life is too short to drink shitty beer. If you want to drink it cold, and without food, do it. If you want to make your head implode, buy Garret Oliver's book, "The Brewmaster's Table." Try some of the pairings in there and I guarantee it will widen your perspectives on food and beer. Sure, some beer styles were brewed to be rejuvinative and restorative, some to slake a thirst. The beers that match up with certain foods, though, will blow your mind. Go buy a wedge of Stilton cheese and eat it while you sip on a barleywine. Try an earthy dish of roast duck with a saison. If you don't like it, get your soapbox back out and tell the world that food and beer don't mix. Maybe someone without a tongue will agree with you. Some people take notes about the beers they drink. Reasons can include: never had it before; had it many years before and want to compare; really rare brew; studying to become BJCP certified, and educating/refining their palate. While I have never seen anyone stick a thermometer into their beer, I can appreciate the subtle differences of flavor and temperature. As for New Belgium having previously had boring offerings, I ask you to consider the first year that La Folie was offered, or the Biere de Mars. Hardly boring. :)

[Trango]

By the way, I agree with you about the elitism in beer these days. When I approached Charlie Papazian at the GABF in 2002 with the intent of expressing perhaps a shared sentiment about the prevalence of Cascade hops in contemporary brewing, it's like he didn't even want to hear what I had to say.

It was a cold shoulder at any serving temperature.

[1BGDOG]

.....

It was a cold shoulder at any serving temperature.

Or a small man scared of a very tall,excited beer geek. I mean come on the abuse of the Cascades!!!! :beer::flipoff2:

[ColoradoXJ13]

I don't know about all this, maybe you all just hang out with the wrong people. I have spent huge amounts of time bullsh!tting with the two main guys at Avery, spent a late night at New Belgium with Peter drinking well past closing time, and have generally found most of the people in the beer world to be very outgoing, interesting, and willing to talk to people of all knowledge/taste levels.

I have found the complexity of beers I am drinking now to be much more varied than even 5 or so years ago when I started taking good beer seriously. Had a fabulous time at the Strong Ale Fest a couple months ago, been to Avery a few times and they surprise me with something new every time (anyone try the Oaked Salvation yet....oh my god!), and I am pleasantly surprised every time I try a new beer I haven't had before, whether I like it or not, I can still appreciate it.

Get what you want out of beer, enjoy it, drink it, live, learn, and don't put others down for how they want to enjoy it.

[Trango]

Look, I think I have a very valid point with this cascade hops thing. I mean, who wants their beer to taste like a Greyhound? Wayyy too much grapefruit flavor.

Hope this helps,
Bob

[_CJ]

A lot of beers being brewed in the last couple of years have indeed been intentionally crafted to develop very intense complexity. Not just hoppiness, but real complexity. Many of these styles do taste different at different temperatures, and it's due to several factors, such as overall protein content, residual lipids, esterification, alcohol content, phenolics, etc. A colder beer will hide alcohol warmth, obviously. If you want to make your head implode, buy Garret Oliver's book, "The Brewmaster's Table." Try some of the pairings in there and I guarantee it will widen your perspectives on food and beer. Sure, some beer styles were brewed to be rejuvinative and restorative, some to slake a thirst. The beers that match up with certain foods, though, will blow your mind. Go buy a wedge of Stilton cheese and eat it while you sip on a barleywine. Try an earthy dish of roast duck with a saison. Some people take notes about the beers they drink. Reasons can include: never had it before; had it many years before and want to compare; really rare brew; studying to become BJCP certified, and educating/refining their palate. While I have never seen anyone stick a thermometer into their beer, I can appreciate the subtle differences of flavor and temperature. :)



:rolleyes: Just curious...do you drive a Landrover? :flipoff2::D

[_CJ]

Look, I think I have a very valid point with this cascade hops thing. I mean, who wants their beer to taste like a Greyhound? Wayyy too much grapefruit flavor.

Hope this helps,
Bob

I don't know Bob, I LOVE Cascade hops! As well as the other citrus-y varieties, with Simcoe being near the top of the list.

As for least favorite....has to be Amarillo. Blahhhhh, smells like old sweatsocks.

[Snotty]

:rolleyes: Just curious...do you drive a Landrover? :flipoff2::D

:troll:

[_CJ]

:troll:

Oh, don't be a :crybaby: . It was just a little trash talking. Have a :beer: and lighten up already.

[Hammer]

I have been drinking craft and micros for only ~9 years or so, but I have been cooking for seemingly forever. Having an affinity for food and cooking, as well as exotic flavors and textures worked into my apreciation for beer.

Beer is a very complex, so is kung-pao beef . . . The more you identify different flavors and textures, the more you appreciate it, even if you don't like it.

As a beginner home brewer, I am fascinated by the different impacts of yeast strains, malts, water pH and yes, hops. What's worse, it is a rabbit hole - the more you grow to and learn to appreciate beer styles, the more you respect the creativity and deviance from the norm, and the more you crave to experience more beers. At the end of the day, you'll find your palate becomming much more discriminating in everything that enters it; or at least that is how it continues to work for me . . .

As far as the snobness goes, I agree, but there are always people that suck. I am curious about their experience though - what is a beer tasting really like for them??

[Snotty]

Oh, don't be a :crybaby: . It was just a little trash talking. Have a :beer: and lighten up already.

Save the trash for Chit Chat. And which beer should I have? My big Belgian Ale that is perfect at about 60 degrees and left to breathe for about 10 minutes so the aroma has a chance to build?

Or my Blonde that is perfect at about 32-34 degrees and put down immedialty, which goes very well spicy foods?

Or my Stout which is low carbed, great with steak and best when served at just about room temp?

I also have a weisenbock that goes great with desert. So many choices and so many ways to drink them. Sorry you think that is being a snob, guess that means more beer for me and Jeepndog and anyone else that likes to enjoy drinking beer...

[_CJ]

And which beer should I have?...

Somehow, an Arrogant Bastard seems fitting. :spit:

[Jeepindog]

Somehow, an Arrogant Bastard seems fitting. :spit:

Are you trying to represent everything that homebrewing does NOT? You're probably trying to be conversational, maybe funny, pensive or witty. Instead you're not coming across too well; this kind of stuff doesn't make you look very cool, friendly, or fun to hang with... :shrug:

Lachlan

[ColoradoXJ13]

boys, be nice or I am actually going to have to use my mod status for the first time...

[_CJ]

Are you trying to represent everything that homebrewing does NOT?

The word you're looking for is contrarian, and yes I freely admit to bucking the latest trends invading the microbrew and homebrew worlds.

I think Denverd0n had it right. The industry has decided that there's more money to be made by repositioning the market. In an effort to gain more marketshare and greater profits, they've pulled terminology and marketing strategies straight from wine and cheese crowd hoping that the Beemer's will beat a path to thier door. I started seeing the writing on the wall about the time I started hearing the term "craft brewed beer". It's a shame that so many people are so willing to buy into what's being sold to them. Nothing but a bunch of sheep.

You're probably trying to be conversational, maybe funny, pensive or witty. Instead you're not coming across too well; this kind of stuff doesn't make you look very cool, friendly, or fun to hang with...

I have plenty of friends the hang out with. Friends that enjoy quality beer for what it is. I'm not at all concerned that some people consider me uncool, unfriendly, or no fun to hang out with. I just wish they'd go back to the country club, where they belong.

I'm happy to enjoy the beer I have brewed, and drive the vehicles I have built.

[Jeepindog]

I really wasn't looking for a word to describe you. You already told us what the word was in your first post. (Snobbiness goes in more than one direction.) It's ok to just let people enjoy beer for their own reasons, whether it's to get toasted, to host a beer/foor pairing, a vertical tasting complete with notes, or a brewfest. If you want to rail against the industry, that's fine. If you want to attack beer drinkers for exploring the depths of beer, that's fine, too. Just make sure that you keep enjoying beer for whatever reason(s) you believe in. It is consumers who demand originality that will drive the creation of new beers.

[Trango]

I hereby christen thee entire thread as Sir Gay of Gayville.

[jwjeep1]

I'm with Lachlan as usual (although I didn't realize you were on here as well). How can someone sit there and bitch about big beers, and wood aging, and alternative styles, and then claim that everyone is making the same thing? You can still go buy the regular pale ale that you could get 15 years ago, it's just that now you can also get yourself a double rye oak aged IPA as well. the brewers are trying to elevate themselves and their products because they deserve it. The fact is that a well crafted beer is not only more complex than the most expensive wine, but also goes better with food than wine does. You have to carefully pick foods and wines that will work together, while you can easily get a beer that will work with a food no wine will ever agree with. Take some sausage paired with an Oktoberfest and try finding any wine in the world that comes even close to stacking up.:beer:

[1BGDOG]

I hereby christen thee entire thread as Sir Gay of Gayville.


HAZAA!!!!!!!:beer:

[Snotty]

I have plenty of friends the hang out with. Friends that enjoy quality beer for what it is. I'm not at all concerned that some people consider me uncool, unfriendly, or no fun to hang out with. I just wish they'd go back to the country club, where they belong.

I'm happy to enjoy the beer I have brewed, and drive the vehicles I have built.

And this makes you any different then an "elitist" how? Sounds like a pretty "elitist" attitude to me. You know people that are cool, let people do and act how they please in regards to activities like this. "Elitists" like you think you are better then someone else because you are somehow "enlightened" on how something, in this case beer, should be enjoyed.

I knight thee _CJ, Sir Hypocrite of Gaysville.

[_CJ]

[COLOR=black]
I knight thee _CJ, Sir Hypocrite of Gaysville.



Soooooo, you're the king of Gaysville?

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Trango]

I honestly think I get what the original poster was trying to get at. I think the issue is with expectation management. You have to realize that any sufficiently advanced schema or organization will have its rarefied extrema that will alienate you, regardless of enthusiasm.

You have to remember what you personally wanted to get out of brewing, and look for that how you can, **** the rest of the world.

HTH
Bob

[Snotty]

I honestly think I get what the original poster was trying to get at. I think the issue is with expectation management. You have to realize that any sufficiently advanced schema or organization will have its rarefied extrema that will alienate you, regardless of enthusiasm.

You have to remember what you personally wanted to get out of brewing, and look for that how you can, **** the rest of the world.

HTH
Bob

He lost me here:

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but it seems to me like the micro-brew and home-brew world is becoming too elitist and snobby.

At this point, _CJ became no better then the people he is banging on.

Beer is beer, meant to enjoyed at a tailgater or savored over a fine meal.

The history of beer supercedes any current "redneck bubba" attitude that some people seem to think that beer drinkers should represent.

Imperial Stouts, made by only by high end crafstmen for Russian Czars and their families. Kolsch style beer which can only be called a Kolsch if made within a 20 mile radius of the founding german city. Porter so named by the class of people that it was made for.

Beer has solid history of catering to every class of person. And yet to make a statement such as this:

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but it seems to me like the micro-brew and home-brew world is becoming too elitist and snobby.

shows either extreme ignorance or extreme elitism in how something such as beer can and should be enjoyed.

Maybe if _CJ had left that first part out of it instead of posting as a Troll...

[Jeepindog]

I honestly think I get what the original poster was trying to get at... **** the rest of the world.

That seems to be his point... I'd still be quite willing to share a beer with him or anyone, anywhere. I have drank beer with world famous brewers, local brewers, my dog, alone, with friends, at weddings, at funerals, dinners, lunches, sometimes breakfast; at beer festivals, at beer tastings, at beer dinners; bars, restaurants, and camping trips. What's the point? There really is a beer for each of those instances, if you so choose to look deeper into the glass than the next buzz. If you are not drinking beer for the flavor, taste, and aroma, then why not just buckle to mass marketing and quaff some Coors Light? The whole reason for drinking quality beer, or homebrewing it, is to find, seek out, and discover enhanced flavor, taste, and aroma. The original post is entirely too contradictary to not make this obvious. The "micro-brew and home-brew world is becoming too elitist and snobby," yet it's not intersting enough, and no one is willing to "try something off the wall?" Sounds more like you're saying that it's stagnant. I don't get it, _CJ. You're saying that the drinkers of a beer that was designed to be different are enjoying it for that reason, intended by the brewer, yet you make fun of them. Come to the National Homebrewer's Conference, and see if you still think that homebrewers are snobby. There won't be a larger gathering of homebrewers anywhere else on the planet. Stand in the middle of the crowd and tell them they're all snobby, and I would bet that you would get chuckles, free beer, lots of conversation, and some happy enlightenment.

Lachlan

[Trango]

So much for trying to circle everyone's wagons around a thematic truism we could all agree on.

[1BGDOG]

I love beer. It is good.

EXCEPT for that PBR. Le swill.

[Snotty]

I like cascade hops too.

[Jeepindog]

So much for trying to circle everyone's wagons around a thematic truism we could all agree on.

I hereby christen thee entire thread as Sir Gay of Gayville.

We want nothing to do with the kind of wagon you ride in. :flipoff2: and a :beer: while you think about it. :D

[_CJ]

Let me back up a bit and try to clarify my position.

What I'm seeing in the market is that breweries are following trends far more often, and using personal creativity far less. I can only guess that it's "the power of the internet". All the brewers are talking to each other and looking at what the others are doing on a far bigger scale than ever before. There used to be regional differences in what was hot, but now trends seem to spread across the country like wildfire. Take a look at AB's list of specialty brews for an example of the latest trends....Belgian Wit beer, Pumpkin spice beer, and Oak aged beer. I don't expect more from AB, but it's clear they're following the trends too. I just wish there was more creativity instead of everyone trying to out-do everyone else on whatever is hot at the moment.

As for snobbyness of drinkers. I'll try to clarify my position a little on this too. If somebody is a true and complete beer geek that truely enjoys beer in every minutia, that's fine as long as it comes from a position of honesty and not in an attempt to impress others.

It just seems as if there are a bunch of people basing thier enjoyment of beer on it's price or place of origin. For example, just because a beer is from Belgium, doesn't mean it's great. Same goes for being aged in an oak barrel. I've had plenty of beer from Belgium that I didn't care for, but one of my all time favorites is from Belgium...Brasserie Dupont Foret.

Clear as mud? Maybe I should said phoney instead of snobby. I have a pretty good BS meter, and it seems as though I'm running into more and more people pontificating about the qualities of this or that only because they've heard it from somebody else.

People reading Michael Jackson's beer guide and reciting it verse for verse as if it's thier own opinion do not impress me. Niether do people who tell me a beer from such and such brewery is amazing, but the only thing amazing about it is that people will pay that much for it.

People being honest with themselves about what they like and why they do - do impress me. Weather it's Pacifico, Iron City, PBR, New Belgium, Deshutes, Brasserie Dupont, or Chimay.

Call me a hypocrite or a troll if you want, but that's my opinion on the matter. A warning to Snotty though. If you insist on setting them up, I'm going to have to keep hitting them out of the park...:D

[Snotty]

Let me back up a bit and try to clarify my position.

What I'm seeing in the market is that breweries are following trends far more often, and using personal creativity far less. I can only guess that it's "the power of the internet". All the brewers are talking to each other and looking at what the others are doing on a far bigger scale than ever before. There used to be regional differences in what was hot, but now trends seem to spread across the country like wildfire. Take a look at AB's list of specialty brews for an example of the latest trends....Belgian Wit beer, Pumpkin spice beer, and Oak aged beer. I don't expect more from AB, but it's clear they're following the trends too. I just wish there was more creativity instead of everyone trying to out-do everyone else on whatever is hot at the moment.

As for snobbyness of drinkers. I'll try to clarify my position a little on this too. If somebody is a true and complete beer geek that truely enjoys beer in every minutia, that's fine as long as it comes from a position of honesty and not in an attempt to impress others.

It just seems as if there are a bunch of people basing thier enjoyment of beer on it's price or place of origin. For example, just because a beer is from Belgium, doesn't mean it's great. Same goes for being aged in an oak barrel. I've had plenty of beer from Belgium that I didn't care for, but one of my all time favorites is from Belgium...Brasserie Dupont Foret.

Clear as mud? Maybe I should said phoney instead of snobby. I have a pretty good BS meter, and it seems as though I'm running into more and more people pontificating about the qualities of this or that only because they've heard it from somebody else.

People reading Michael Jackson's beer guide and reciting it verse for verse as if it's thier own opinion do not impress me. Niether do people who tell me a beer from such and such brewery is amazing, but the only thing amazing about it is that people will pay that much for it.

People being honest with themselves about what they like and why they do - do impress me. Weather it's Pacifico, Iron City, PBR, New Belgium, Deshutes, Brasserie Dupont, or Chimay.

Call me a hypocrite or a troll if you want, but that's my opinion on the matter. A warning to Snotty though. If you insist on setting them up, I'm going to have to keep hitting them out of the park...:D

Hey man, if I can get people to write post like this with my proding, then I win! :flipoff2:

I can agree with everything that you have written in this one. :D

And I still like Cascade Hops too.

On the flip side though, I have run into people on the otherside of the fence. You can't call a beer a style unless it fits neatly into that style, or their perception of it as well. Lachlan and I have run into this on another board. I posted up part of recipe to see if it meshed together. One guy got all aggitated because I wouldn't tell him what style of beer I was brewing so he couldn't comment on it. Lachlan came in and said it looked like I was brewing beer. So I have seen pretty hard core home brewers have the same issues you are discussing.

As for the beer style I was brewing, maybe Lachln will have tried it and can give us an opinion on it.

:beer: on!

[Jeepindog]

Great post, _CJ. I can agree with every word you wrote. That post made your point in a much easier to understand way, without bashing fellow beer lovers. Some are a little out there, but that's just the population exploding and bringing the percentages of whackos to the forefront. Great example of location NOT equalling great beer. I am not a fan of lagers, and people who are seem to be in general agreement that Germany makes some pretty good ones. They also make some bad ones. Ayinger is quite good, Hacker-Pschorr and Weihenstephan are, too. Not my first choice for a beer, but I can appreciate how they came about, and how they taste. Italy makes some fine sports cars, but I'll bet they have some real crappy cars, too. That's how it goes... :beer: is the same way. Sure, there will be trends. Look at Stella Artois. Not the best beer around, but it's in a lot of twenty-somethings' hands as of late.

Here's an honest question: what do *YOU* think brewers should be brewing these days?

Lachlan

[_CJ]

Great post, _CJ. I can agree with every word you wrote. That post made your point in a much easier to understand way, without bashing fellow beer lovers. Some are a little out there, but that's just the population exploding and bringing the percentages of whackos to the forefront. Great example of location NOT equalling great beer. I am not a fan of lagers, and people who are seem to be in general agreement that Germany makes some pretty good ones. They also make some bad ones. Ayinger is quite good, Hacker-Pschorr and Weihenstephan are, too. Not my first choice for a beer, but I can appreciate how they came about, and how they taste. Italy makes some fine sports cars, but I'll bet they have some real crappy cars, too. That's how it goes... :beer: is the same way. Sure, there will be trends. Look at Stella Artois. Not the best beer around, but it's in a lot of twenty-somethings' hands as of late.

Here's an honest question: what do *YOU* think brewers should be brewing these days?

Lachlan

Hey man, I like Stella. I try to have some on hand whenever I make Sushi at home. Yeah, I know....big fat hypocrite. :shrug:

What do I think brewer's should make? That's like trying to tell a painter what to paint, or a musician what songs to write. Hmmmm, come to think of it, I guess I'm having the same problem with the beer industry as I am with the music industry!

More than anything, I just want to see some individual creativity. I like seeing beers that can't be defined by classis styles. New Belgium has been doing a good job in that respect with the seasonal offerings in recent years.

Speaking of lagers....Judge Baldwin's has a really strange one on tap. I have no idea who's brewing over there these days, but it's pretty creative. When was the last time you saw a dry-hopped amber lager? You can get growlers of it to go on Fridays and Saturdays for $3.50.

[jwjeep1]

I had two dry hopped lagers this weekend at the Snowmass Beer and Chili Festival, only they called them a double pilsner and an inperial pils. Only the imperial pils was amber, but you get my point. It seems to me like these would fall into the same category you were ranting about originally, and that is the big beer trend. I had the good fortune to be a judge for the "Best Summer Ale" competition at the festival. It was fun, but I can't even remember how many doubles, triples, barleywines, IPA's, etc were entered in the summer ale category. Of course, maybe I can't remember all of them because there were so many...:D Anyway, there were lots of people that were actually enjoying trying the beers to experience them. There were the people who just walked up to the Bristol table and chugged an entire glass of their 12% Double IPA (not really a double in my book) as well though, just because they would get drunk quicker.