never shot a handgun... but I want one, suggestions?

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

I have never shot a handgun but I want to get one, I already own a shotgun and two .22 rifles, I just want something to shoot for fun and to take camping.

Is there a place close to the boulder area that will allow me to shoot a couple different guns (glock 9mm and 40cal, maybe others?)

I dont have a huge budget (like $350 and less would be comfortable)

should I just go out and buy a glock 9mm? or shoot some others and see what I like?

Zach

[Jake_Blues]

I have never shot a handgun but I want to get one, I already own a shotgun and two .22 rifles, I just want something to shoot for fun and to take camping.

Is there a place close to the boulder area that will allow me to shoot a couple different guns (glock 9mm and 40cal, maybe others?)

I dont have a huge budget (like $350 and less would be comfortable)

should I just go out and buy a glock 9mm? or shoot some others and see what I like?

Zach

I'd definitely shoot as many different guns as you can before you buy. Glocks are one of those love/hate deals, some love them and some hate them.

Even if you just pick them up and try holding them first, that can help. Find one that fits your hand well, etc. With all the guys on here, we ought to be able to take you shooting sometime and let you try out a variety of styles and calibers. I personally have a Kimber 1911 clone in 45ACP that you're more than welcome to come and shoot.

-E

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

it would be cool to have a meet and greet and shoot at lefthand or something (the upper shooting range not the one accross the creek)

I have a co worker that wants to go shooting with me, he has two 40 cal glocks one short one regular...

where should I go to check out some guns? sportsmans warehouse, gun sport (boulder) or trek up to jensens...

I just turned 21, and I dont drink so I figure I should take advantage of the other things I can do :D

Zach

[quivvy]

I've got a Glock 19 (compact 9mm) your welcome to shoot. Also have a Sig P228 (another 9mm compact), but the Sig would be outside your budget.

I go atleast once a week up to the canyon and shoot. pop me an email or PM if youd like. Ross (the guy who manages Gun Sport) is very fair, super friendly, and gives good advice. Hes got a good selection for such a small shop and will let you feel quite a different variety of guns.

If your on a budget, Id stick with a 9mm so you can shoot it more often (they are far cheaper to feed than a .40cal or .45ACP. I also wouldnt overlook a revolver. You could get into a Ruger or a good used S&W for the $350 range for a .38 or .357. Nice thing is, you can get a .357 and practice with .38s and load up .357s to keep with you camping for more knock down power.

Also consider your intentions with the firearm. If you plan to get your carry license, that will alter your options. If you are just looking to go out and plink, a .22 pistol would fit the bill nicely. For home/personal protection AND plinking, you cant go wrong with a 9mm.

Hope this helps.

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

I have been leaning towards the 9mm because it's cheaper all around and less recoil...

Zach

[kmon35]

I liked the selection at Gander Mtn. The guys there were helpful, and the prices looked good.

I agree with the guys above, try quite a few. I pesonally hate glocks, they just dont feel right to me. I like my Ruger P89 9mm. And, I have always wanted a Sig or HK. Kimber is good too, but they're expensive. Ruger is probably the best bang for the buck. You see them all the time in the paper for $350.

[Jake_Blues]

where should I go to check out some guns? sportsmans warehouse, gun sport (boulder) or trek up to jensens...


Jensens has a good selection, not sure how they compare on price though.

-E

[newracer]

Jensen actually has pretty good prices.

[Jeffro600]

Dont just go buy a glock...their not for everyone and some people despise them.

My advice, considering your budget, is to look at Rugers line of auto loaders. Most can be found brand new for 350-400 dollars, their stupid simple to use, damn near indestructable, and if for some reason you do manage to break it, its covered by the best customer service and warranty in the business. Their not the prettiest pistols in the world and their not going to win any awards for being easy to carry conceiled, but their functional, inexpensive, accurate and reliable.

http://ruger.com/Firearms/FASubType?type=Pistol&subtype=Centerfire%20Autoloading

[Yota]

It's no secret that I'm a huge fan of the Springfield Armory (http://www.springfield-armory.com/) XD pistols. They're cheaper than Glocks and I'd argue just a little better.

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

I am looking into XD's and Glocks myself...

I will check out gunsport tomorrow, I work very close to them...

Zach

[GJ87xj]

It's no secret that I'm a huge fan of the Springfield Armory (http://www.springfield-armory.com/) XD pistols. They're cheaper than Glocks and I'd argue just a little better.

X2, I have the XD subcompact in 40 cal. great little gun. and it was around 400 bucks with a nice case, holster and 3 mags. cant be beat in my opinion.

[newracer]

+1 to what everybody else is saying, you just have to at least hold (even better shoot) as many as you can before you buy. Personally I have three Glocks and really like them.

My only experience with XDs was at a training class I took two other shooters had them, they each had 9mm and 45 models. For some reason both the 45 models jammed several times. Both guys switched to the 9mm and each ran flawless for the rest of the session, about 300 rounds. They are a great value.

[sweater]

You know, and here I thought a thread like this wouldn't get many responses.

:D

In the $350 range, there are (for me) only a few new or high-quality used guns that you're going to be looking at:

S&W Sigma series (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&categoryId=15713&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15708&top_category=15708)
Ruger P-series (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Pistol&subtype=Centerfire%20Autoloading&famlst=3&variation=P345%C2%AE)
Taurus (almost anything) (http://www.taurususa.com/products/products-pistols.cfm)

The thing is, I've never heard anything good about S&W, especially their polymer-framed guns, I've personally experienced frame failures with a Taurus and wouldn't touch one with a 10ft pole ever again, and while Ruger makes bombproof pistols that are inexpensive, William B. Ruger (http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html) is a bastard.

So, spend more. :D

And, if anyone's up for it, I'm down for a meet-n-greet-n-shoot in LH...

- mike

[Trango]

I dig on the Sig line, even though mine is currently experiencing feed issues. Grrrr!

The Springfield and glock lines for me are a real turn off because of their hammer mechanism - the hidden hammer is, well, just a downer.

[Barf Bag]

like other have said, it depends entirely upon the desired use of the gun. My favorite pistol to shoot is my old S&W model 28 .357, super smooth, low recoil if i use the .38s, fits my hand great (fit is important). even though the S&W is my favorite, I take my XD40 with me and keep it ready for action at all times "just in case." For plinking when my funds are low I use a S&W 10shot K22 or my ruger Mark IV .22.

best of luck finding the best pistol for your desired use, but I dont think I know anyone that was content with just one (they are like lays potato chips)

[Jake_Blues]

best of luck finding the best pistol for your desired use, but I dont think I know anyone that was content with just one (they are like lays potato chips)

Yep, don't look at this as getting the only pistol you'll have... just consider it the first one of your collection :D

-E

[ccondrey]

Is there a place close to the boulder area that will allow me to shoot a couple different guns (glock 9mm and 40cal, maybe others?)

I dont have a huge budget (like $350 and less would be comfortable)

should I just go out and buy a glock 9mm? or shoot some others and see what I like?

Zach

Silver Bullet shooting range in wheatridge has a handful of pistols you can rent and shoot. http://www.silverbulletshootingrange.com/ It takes me about 30-40 mins to get there from Boulder depending on traffic. It's the closest place I know of to rent guns.

X2 on Ross at Gunsport. Outstanding guy.

As others have said, if you go auto I'd stay 9mm on your budget. You should be able to find a decent used glock or xd under $400 if you're patient.

CDNN Investments has some police trades in stock now on page 12 of their catalog: Glock 19 w/ night sights for 399, G22 for $339 (.40 cal), G23 for $359. You can do an FFL transfer to silver bullet for like $20.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ (you have to download the PDF catalog)
I've heard good things about CDNN but never bought anything from them.

Dave's gun's in Arvada has a lot of police trade ins as well, so you may try them out (or at least call). Oh, and I heard that Gander mtn had the sig p225 (single stack 9mm) police trade ins for something like $350 - that would be a nice choice. I had a p225 once upon a time and it's a very nice shooting 9mm that would be outstanding as a 'first pistol'.

You may also consider a revolver. I'm a big fan of the hamerless s&w snubbies, and they should be right around your price range as well.

Anyway, good luck! Let us know what you decide!

Edit: I found where I heard about the P225 deal - it's in the p220 thread:


If you're looking for a cheap used SIG gander mountain has the ex-police import P225s for 399, not a screaming deal but not a bad price either, they have a lot of holster wear but the one I fondled looked to be pretty good overall.
For 100 bucks sig will replace the springs and install night sights, for another 100 they'll refinish it.
They're in the tall case just opposite of the 1911 case, kind of hidden.

[Trango]

You mean 226, fullsize case... they take a double stack 9mm mag, 15's are the high caps....

Unless you live in Denver, where hicaps are illegal. Buncha Denver libbys. :flipoff:

[ccondrey]

You mean 226, fullsize case... they take a double stack 9mm mag, 15's are the high caps....

Unless you live in Denver, where hicaps are illegal. Buncha Denver libbys. :flipoff:

I heard (but can't remember for the life of me where I heard this) that Gander had P225s police trade-ins from europe ("the most widely issued sidearm to the police in Europe, with over half a million having been made" *) Considerable holster wear, but otherwise good guns. I paid about that for my p225 from Dave's several years ago (again, lots of holser wear but great gun).

* http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/sig-sauer_p225.htm

[Trango]

Just joking about the denver libbys. :)

So I was thinking P226 - I didn't know they did P225 too - because that's the exact one that I got from Gander. Shot great for a couple of years, stored it for like one 6 month stretch, and suddenly feed issues.

[kmon35]

I would highly recomend a second job.

If you find one you like, you will soon find another. Pretty soon you will be spending all your money on guns, ammo, accesories, etc.

Good luck, it is a passion.

[DanaT]

I dig on the Sig line, even though mine is currently experiencing feed issues. Grrrr!

The Springfield and glock lines for me are a real turn off because of their hammer mechanism - the hidden hammer is, well, just a downer.

Umm, Bob, you do realize that Glock and XDs don't have hammers don't you? They have strikers which are very similar in operation to a bolt action rifle.

-Dana

[kdl_golden]

If you haven't figured out what you want yet PM me and I am off all of next week and would meet you at The Silver Bullet (38th & Harlan) and you can try out some of my toys. The range fee is $15 and you could either bring some ammo (9mm or 45ACP) or they sell it there as well. I have a good variety (no Glocks) but I have 1911's (Para P12, full size LDA and a mil spec) all 45's, XD 45 and XD 9mm, S&W 6906 9mm, Ruger P345, and a Taurus .357 titanium revolver and you could see what works best for you. PM me if you are interested.

Thanks,
Kurt

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

If you haven't figured out what you want yet PM me and I am off all of next week and would meet you at The Silver Bullet (38th & Harlan) and you can try out some of my toys.

I might take you up on that, I have thursday off, I imagine I could rent a glock at the range...

Zach

[quivvy]

Glock, XD, Ruger, S&W autos I've heard good things about. You can get police trade ins CHEAP. Sig police trade ins, S&W and Ruger revolvers.

also heard the CZs are good. I only owned one, a CZ - 52 from 1952... it was a C&R and it was fun to shoot but was outdated and my particular one had some FTE issues. I've heard thats RARE and the new ones are great.

Here's one local http://coloradoshooting.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=6097

handle a few, see what you like. then decide.

[kdl_golden]

I also forgot to tell you that the Tanner Gun Show is this weekend at the Merchandise Mart-for $6 you can hold hundreds of guns at one place and see what you can get for your money.

For directions http://www.tannergunshow.com/index3.html

[DanaT]

Zach,

If you are wanting in the $350 range a glock will be hard to come by, even used. A nice condition glock that is used will run in the $400-500 range (depending upon model, sights, etc).

If you have never really become accustom to any handgun, you will not have any problem with a Glock grip angle. It has a different grip angle than a 1911. The shooters who typically don't like the glock angle are the ones who are used to 1911 angles. The Xd has an angle very similar to a 1911. That is why many American shooters day they like the XD better.

Also the XD in 45 has a smaller grip circumfrence. That is good and bad. A smaller grip puts more force over a smaller area making recoil feel more pronounced.

I have read some recomendations about the Ruger pistols. I have a P89. It is a great functioning pistol. No it is not a match grade pistol. That said, I have used it in IDPA and shot better than other shooters with match pistols. It is all the accuracy that is needed for a defensive pistol. They are a good value for the money.

-Dana

[Trango]

Umm, Bob, you do realize that Glock and XDs don't have hammers don't you? They have strikers which are very similar in operation to a bolt action rifle.

-Dana

Poe Tay to - Poh tah toh. Bottom line is I am accustomed to a different interface on the back of the slide and therefore can't get used to that piece.

[trojanman]

get a .357 revolver :D
you'll love it

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

I went to gunsport today and got to handle a couple different guns...

Ruger 9mm (dont remember which kind)

baby glock 9mm

glock 40cal

XD 40cal

I really really liked the way the XD felt in my hand, he said it had the same grip as the 9mm... so I just need to track down a XD 9mm, he did not have any...

where are used guns purchased?

Zach

[kdl_golden]

Zach,

Check out his guy, I have bought from him before and am sure I will buy more from him http://www.paulsfirearms.com/ . He is up your way anyways. He has a XD 9 listed here http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/none/_976535578.aspx for a good price. If you want to shoot mine first let me know.

Thanks,
Kurt

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

Zach,

Check out his guy,


thanks I will give him a call on monday if I dont find something else...

Zach

[quivvy]

remember, when buying online you pay shipping AND FFL transfer fees (roughly 20 bux). IMO its always better off giving the business to a local shop. Youll end up spending a little more, have better customer service, and build a good relationship with a shop which is always good to have. PLUS, your next purchases will be more likely to get better prices knowing they will keep your business.

ross at gunsport can order you a new XD as well.

in regards to the gun shows (tanner in particular), i've seen absurdly high prices there. make sure you inspect the firearm well too.

[18to80DDC]

Another :thumbsup: for the XD's. I've had an XD 45 tactial for about a year now, put well over 1k rounds through it and not a bit of trouble with it yet. I love the way it shoots, and the tool-less break down, and the 45 ACP with 13 round clip is nice too.

I picked up a Hi Point 9 about 6 months ago for my wife and was severely unimpressed. If you loaded 10 shells into the 10 round clip or 8 shells into the 8 round clip, it would jam on the first feed, and accuracy seemed subpar.

So after my experience with the Hi point, I decided to pick up a HD 9 for her, got one from a board member this week but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. If you want to shoot the XD 45 or XD 9 this weekend pm me, I'll even bring along the Hi point so you can see the difference.

[kdl_golden]

remember, when buying online you pay shipping AND FFL transfer fees (roughly 20 bux). IMO its always better off giving the business to a local shop. Youll end up spending a little more, have better customer service, and build a good relationship with a shop which is always good to have. PLUS, your next purchases will be more likely to get better prices knowing they will keep your business.

ross at gunsport can order you a new XD as well.

in regards to the gun shows (tanner in particular), i've seen absurdly high prices there. make sure you inspect the firearm well too.

This guy is in Boulder, CO., No shipping FTF, and is a good local business as well. He does not have a shop to support and sells for $25 over his cost. Did you even look at the links before replying?

[Jonas]

get a .357 revolver :D
you'll love it

x2. Love my Taurus .357 Tracker.

[jnschwie]

Poe Tay to - Poh tah toh. Bottom line is I am accustomed to a different interface on the back of the slide and therefore can't get used to that piece.

You don't usually seem like someone who would be ruffled by such a small amount of change.

[Budman]

Meet and greet!?!?!?!?!?!?!??

[DanaT]

Poe Tay to - Poh tah toh. Bottom line is I am accustomed to a different interface on the back of the slide and therefore can't get used to that piece.


No really its not. Depending upon the weapon this could land one in trouble. Lets take two weapons as examples: the XD and the Glock. For all practical purposes the operation looks the same and fell very similar. That said, the glock is listed by the ATF as a double action pistol (and it truely is a Double Action Only pistol). The XD on the other hand is listed by the ATF a single action pistol (and again it truely is a single action only pistol).

Pistols with hammers can be DAO (double action only), DA/SA (i.e. double action on the first shot, single action thereafter), or SA.

Single action pistols generally have a lighter trigger pull. Many law enforcement agencies have went away from SA pistols (or even DA/SA) because of percieved liability of "hair triggers".

To this end a DA striker fired pistol is much more consistent and a light trigger pull. The trade-off is that a striker fired pistol does not offer second strike capabilities if a round does not go off. The slide must be racked.

Some of the newer hammer designs, such a Para's LDA and H&K LEM, have made hammer fired DA pistols feel like striker fired DA pistols. There is a reason.

My opinion only. Personally, I don't think carrying cocked and locked with a light single action pistol is advisable. I think is dangerous as the weapon can easily be discharged during unholstering activities.

Also, many self defense experts tend to advise using DA pistols as they are easier to defend in court.

But, to sum up, how the pistol works internally can have a bearing on more than just wanting or not wanting an external hammer.

-Dana

[Trango]

Interesting. I didn't know that the XD and glocks were SA/DA respectively.... I just hate not being able to toss a quick or sideward glance at a piece and know whether it's a light pull away from discharge. Yes, safe handling rules and all that, but unless the slide is open I sort of hate handling those weapons.

Thanks for the summation, for real.

[DanaT]

Bob, on a side note, since the XD is SA (and how its made), you can see if it is cocked. When cocked the striker sticks out about a 1/16 th of an inch out the back of the slide.

Also, almost every imported pistol must have a loaded chamber indicator. The XD is on the top, the glock on the side. You can look and feel for that. If you see or feel that, they are live.

-Dana

[jnschwie]

My opinion only. Personally, I don't think carrying cocked and locked with a light single action pistol is advisable. I think is dangerous as the weapon can easily be discharged during unholstering activities.


Really?
What is going to make a Series 80 (or analogous) go off while unholstering that might be prevented with an XD (or glock)?


The only real answer is (assuming the extremely liberal cocked and unlocked situation, which you didn't even allude to, but just to make it dangerous-) safeties being defeated and finger on trigger.

And if I'm not mistaken (and I'm fairly sure I'm not), this would apply to the glock as well.


Edit: Heck, I don't even worry about that possibility with the Series 70. Contrary to popular belief, it won't just "go off."

[Gunter]

I have been leaning towards the 9mm because it's cheaper all around and less recoil...

Zach

if you want a plinker go .22 target pistol.they are EVIL accurate,and cheap to shoot.

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

if you want a plinker go .22 target pistol.they are EVIL accurate,and cheap to shoot.

I have pretty much settled on the XD 9mm... just trying to find one used. I sent an e-mail to pauls firearms. I hope he has a XD in stock...

I have two .22 rifles. I might get a cheap .22 pistol if i come accross one for friends that have never shot...


Zach

[sweater]

I have pretty much settled on the XD 9mm... just trying to find one used. I sent an e-mail to pauls firearms. I hope he has a XD in stock...

I'd be willing to let mine go for $300 or so.

However, I couldn't, in good conscience, sell you a pistol that I know has (rare but still present) feeding problems. It's the only firearm in my inventory that has any sort of functioning issues at this point.

:rolleyes:

They're around. Ross at Gunsport in Boulder sometimes has these available. Other than that, you can check out Dave's guns in Aurora, which carries a lot of used weapons. But it's not too much of a financial stretch if you find yourself going new.

- mike

[sweater]

Really?
What is going to make a Series 80 (or analogous) go off while unholstering that might be prevented with an XD (or glock)?


The only real answer is (assuming the extremely liberal cocked and unlocked situation, which you didn't even allude to, but just to make it dangerous-) safeties being defeated and finger on trigger.

And if I'm not mistaken (and I'm fairly sure I'm not), this would apply to the glock as well.


Edit: Heck, I don't even worry about that possibility with the Series 70. Contrary to popular belief, it won't just "go off."
Given the most common, as I understand it, reason why weapons entering a holster are discharged: clothing being caught up between the trigger and the holster. Upsides and downsides to the holster/unholster with a 1911 vs. something like a Glock...

1911: you have to manually engage the safety prior to holstering. Anything manual, IMHO, is more prone to failure. So, you could be holstering with a proper grip (grip safety off, then) and the side safety off. Piece of clothing or something else gets caught in there, your weapon may discharge.

Glock/XD: you don't have to manually engage the safety (integral trigger) so that's already taken care of, and on the XD you've got the grip safety off. Again, you holster and your clothes get in the way, gun goes off. However, I personally believe that there is a much larger room for error on something like an XD or Glock, or Sig in DA (as it should be prior to holstering) than there is on a safety-off 1911.

Look - I love 1911's. My Kimber Pro Carry II is one of my favorite all-time guns. It's a fawkin' badass fighting weapon. And let's be honest: it looks menacing sitting in a holster, hammer back, polished steel and evil bullet-slinging ability unquestioned. However, it requires manual intervention to come into the fight and to safely leave the fight. It was also the first weapon I carried, and I was severely unnerved to find that, on a couple of occasions, moving around with it all day in a Galco holster had actually shifted the safety to the OFF position.

That's just not acceptable.

Ultimately? Personal preference, I guess. :shrug:

And FWIW, although I understand that the Glock is designated as a DA-only pistol (thanks for the clarification again, DanaT) it really doesn't feel that way. It just feels like a crappy plastic 1986 K-car interior trim piece that's breaking every time you pull the trigger.

:D

- mike

[jnschwie]

Given the most common, as I understand it, reason why weapons entering a holster are discharged: clothing being caught up between the trigger and the holster. Upsides and downsides to the holster/unholster with a 1911 vs. something like a Glock...


Putting aside the differences between the two examples (like yourself, I have and carry both) ...have you ever caught clothing on your piece while holstering or unholstering?

I'm unsure how it would even be possible (with any of my holsters) for unholstering.


I think if it were to happen while holstering, it would be as negligent as a finger in the guard. What are you doing when this happens? (Not you, Mike, in general). Cowboy action? When I carry (either open or concealed), basically, I pay VERY close attention putting the piece in, and then it stays in all day. I also tend to hold my 1911 -Jarrett style, but with the thumb on the safety coming out, and under putting in.



-Going back to the specific differences -I do see your point about the flipped off safety. While I've never experienced even a single occurence of this, it is, in fact, the reason I dislike ambi-safeties -out of the theoretical possibility. (Edit: I should point out -I've never had it in my concealed holster, which is my 95% of the time holster). :)

That said, one of my open carry holsters (A bianchi accumold) actually easily and routinely flips off any sort of extended (non mil spec) 1911 safety. I used to worry about it, but the fact that the strap sits OVER the pin sort of alleviated that. Something really radical would have to happen to cause the Series 80 (or Kimber's "II" -in my case) to go off, AND drop the hammer onto the strap. That being the case, it can be recocked and underpants cleaned out.

[Barf Bag]

It's the only firearm in my inventory that has any sort of functioning issues at this point.

have you called SA about it? I found they have great customer service for repairing troubled pistols

[Yota]

If you shoot only at the appropriate time, there won't be any court.

See my thread about the guy in Alaska who used an XD (striker fired SAO).

[Yota]

It just feels like a crappy plastic 1986 K-car interior trim piece that's breaking every time you pull the trigger.

:D

- mike

Holy crap you did NOT just throw out a K-car reference!

:lmao: :spit:

[Yota]

Yeah when I holster and unholster my XD the grip safety is on going both in and out. My thumb can't physically fit between the gun and my body in such a way as to have that safety off.

Maybe it's just me and maybe it's not entirely correct, but my thumb doesn't wrap around the grip until it's coming out of the holster. On reholstering, I take my thumb and put it basically on top of the striker indicator and push in there. My thumb can't really fit down between the gun and my fat arse very well. Plus by putting the fatty part of my thumb on the back of the slide on holstering, I make sure it's in battery. I think I read that someplace.

Anyway, for me at least, it's very unlikely to have an ND on holstering or unholstering with an XD. That grip safety is nice to have.

[sweater]

Yeah when I holster and unholster my XD the grip safety is on going both in and out. My thumb can't physically fit between the gun and my body in such a way as to have that safety off.

Maybe it's just me and maybe it's not entirely correct, but my thumb doesn't wrap around the grip until it's coming out of the holster. On reholstering, I take my thumb and put it basically on top of the striker indicator and push in there. My thumb can't really fit down between the gun and my fat arse very well. Plus by putting the fatty part of my thumb on the back of the slide on holstering, I make sure it's in battery. I think I read that someplace.

Anyway, for me at least, it's very unlikely to have an ND on holstering or unholstering with an XD. That grip safety is nice to have.
When I went to training, I had been previously used to holstering and unholstering that way - and then learned specifically not to at Frontsight.

The reason? If your hand is on your weapon you should try - holster types permitting - to have as much of a fighting grip as possible. That way you're not changing your grip, you're reducing the complexity of the motion of your draw, you're able to bring the weapon back into the fight quickly, etc etc etc. I had also learned the "finger on the back strap" and stuff from my CCW class at Safearms, but was specifically told not to do that at Frontsight.

Frontsight's methodology made more sense, so it wins.

As for reholstering with clothing in the way - yes, I've done it. I practice drawing from concealment the vast majority of the time, so there is usually a jacket or shirt in the way. Again, that complicates the reholster - and complication = things can go wrong more often. Granted, I try to reholster very slowly and deliberately, and catching clothing has almost always been muzzle pulling a shirt in (I'm not saying this happens often - but it happens) so for me, the concern is always there.

As for calling SA, I know they're legendary for customer service. I'm going to start with new mags first, though. Just need to swing by Jensen's or order 'em from Cheaper Than Dirt or something. If I continue to have problems with new factory mags (not Mec-Gar or some shit) then I'll go the "Please please please fix what used to be my favorite weapon" route.
:)

- mike

[DanaT]

Although a properly functioning SA cocked and lock is not unsafe as you have eluded to if you are careful, careful goes out the door in a high stress situation.

What makes some of the DA safer than SA for carry? It is length of trigger pull. When drawing under stress most people will put their finger on the trigger. They are drilled like LEO to keep the finger outside the trigger until ready to fire. A longer, heavier trigger pull is less likely to be accidentally discharged. If this were not the case, then why wouldn't all pistols (and rifles) come with ultra light short travel triggers? They aren't inhertently less safe, then I could see no reason not to put light triggers on weapons.

We will continue to argue and it will be like the special olympics. But, look at objective evidence. You cannot buy the 3.5lb trigger connector from Glock in the USA. Many LEO agencies require DOA or at a minimum DA/SA. Many do not allow cocked and locked carry. In fact, Glock actually sells pistols (and the parts) with a NY-1 trigger which is a HEAVIER trigger issued to the NYPD because they believed the standard trigger was to light. Likewise, Walther on teh P99 went to DOA and a heavier trigger in some models. The trend is for triggers that have less potential for discharge under stressful conditions. You may not agree, but really that is the trend.

-Dana

[jnschwie]

What makes some of the DA safer than SA for carry? It is length of trigger pull. When drawing under stress most people will put their finger on the trigger. They are drilled like LEO to keep the finger outside the trigger until ready to fire. A longer, heavier trigger pull is less likely to be accidentally discharged. If this were not the case, then why wouldn't all pistols (and rifles) come with ultra light short travel triggers? They aren't inhertently less safe, then I could see no reason not to put light triggers on weapons.


This much I do agree with. In fact, I read a good article about training cops in a simulator, and the cops "fingered" the trigger FAR more than they thought they did (or thought they would). Clearly, virtually all of us would do the same.

That said, the only 3.5 "factory" pulls I know of are competition geared guns. I'm pretty sure the pull on my XD is within a pound or so of my 1911. (Advertised difference is anywhere from 2.5 to zero, if I'm not mistaken).

That said, my preference is still a smooth and short SA. The DA style action of the XD (yeah, I know and agree it is SA) works great once I've shot a few and am used to it again, but the SA feels so much more natural. The way I see it, I'm not that worried about a stressful AD. The pistol does not come until I'm ready for a discharge of some sort.

[sweater]

You cannot buy the 3.5lb trigger connector from Glock in the USA.
Who said ya need to go to Glock? (http://glockmeister.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/14_68/products_id/199)

:D

- mike

[DanaT]

Sweater, those are funny. They want $25 for a 4 Euro part. What they did was buy them in Europe. You can get places to sell them out of Europe and they mark up the price. When I checked in Europe they were under 4 Euros. I would have bought a few, but they did not stock them. I didn't have a few weeks to wait.

Yes, the competition geared guns have a 3.5# trigger. Really, a glock with a 3.5# trigger is closer to 4.5# to 5lbs unless the lighter striker spring is used.

I also for a long time thought that I liked a short smooth SA. My H&K is so short and smooth if I switch from something with a heavy trigger pull, I actually can get off a double tap just by firing a single shot. But, once I started shooting IDPA, the glock trigger works wonders. It is just so damn consistent. I have a G34 so it has the light trigger.

I like XDs (and have one) but I have some complaints. One, they are in ESP in IDPA because they are SA. Two, the finish is upto par with the more expensive pistols, Three. There is no 10mm.

Really the last one is why I settled on Glock and (re)learned shooting Glocks. The grip angle is the only difference. I started by shooting Glocks a little low. Now I shoot other stuff a little high.

I have heard rumors of an XD in 10mm. When that day comes (and when they can show that teh XD will live with REAL 10mm loads) I may switch to the XD. Also, the newer XDs are supposed to have a more durable finish.

Oh. I also remembered why I was cussing my XD and loved the glock Sunday. The polygon rifling is 100X easier to clean than cut rifling.

Now, try an AR with a trigger a little over a pound and less than .030 creep. That re-defines a touchy trigger. :)

-Dana

[Yota]

This much I do agree with. In fact, I read a good article about training cops in a simulator, and the cops "fingered" the trigger FAR more than they thought they did (or thought they would). Clearly, virtually all of us would do the same.

Yes, I've read about this too and I've heard it mentioned countless times as an argument against carrying SA - or at least against carrying SA cocked & locked.

However, that study doesn't prove anything other than that people tend to "trigger search" when under stress. And while that alone was a significant finding, there was zero evidence to show that people actually negligently discharged SA firearms more than DA. Sure, everyone apparently fondles the trigger. But how much pressure? Are they simply touching it? Squeezing it? What? That study didn't get into that issue.

To my knowledge, no one has done the research to see if SA causes more NDs under stress. In the research I've read about, every participant used a Glock (DA) simulator regardless of whether they normally carried that type or not. And despite all the trigger-fondling, there were very few NDs. Is that because the Glock is "DA" (it's really not SA or DA - more like 1.5A :) ) or is it because the touching of the trigger is done more for reference to its location? We don't know because they never tested an SA pistol and they didn't let people shoot with their own weapon (the one they train with).

So I think the indictment of SA just based on the fingering issue is a stretch of the evidence but ,admittedly, a popular stretch.

[Yota]

When I went to training, I had been previously used to holstering and unholstering that way - and then learned specifically not to at Frontsight.

The reason? If your hand is on your weapon you should try - holster types permitting - to have as much of a fighting grip as possible. That way you're not changing your grip, you're reducing the complexity of the motion of your draw, you're able to bring the weapon back into the fight quickly, etc etc etc. I had also learned the "finger on the back strap" and stuff from my CCW class at Safearms, but was specifically told not to do that at Frontsight.

Frontsight's methodology made more sense, so it wins.

As for reholstering with clothing in the way - yes, I've done it. I practice drawing from concealment the vast majority of the time, so there is usually a jacket or shirt in the way. Again, that complicates the reholster - and complication = things can go wrong more often. Granted, I try to reholster very slowly and deliberately, and catching clothing has almost always been muzzle pulling a shirt in (I'm not saying this happens often - but it happens) so for me, the concern is always there.


I've read that too, and it makes perfect sense for certain guns. For example, upon reholstering, guns without grip safeties are no safer with the thumb on the back of the slide (in-battery argument aside) vs in the fighting grip.

I still choose to sacrifice a few nanoseconds on reholstering in the interest of safety. My gun has a grip safety and that's the only way to engage it and if I am reholstering, it's because there is no longer an imminent threat or because my gun is empty. With the grip safety disengaged, a snag on clothing or on the tang of the holster could cause it to fire (in effect, it'd be no different than the Glock at that point).

There's also the hair-splitting argument about my gun coming out of battery on reholster, which it can only do if that grip safety is deactivated. Yet another little reason to perform the reholster with grip safety engaged.

It's not a huge deal, really. I mean there are people reholstering Glocks worldwide every day who manage to get it back in the holster without blowing their feet off. :) So it's probably not that big a problem.

[jnschwie]

However, that study doesn't prove anything other than that people tend to "trigger search" when under stress. And while that alone was a significant finding, there was zero evidence to show that people actually negligently discharged SA firearms more than DA. Sure, everyone apparently fondles the trigger. But how much pressure? Are they simply touching it? Squeezing it? What? That study didn't get into that issue.


Or just tapping the side? That would be my GUESS for what I'd do with it. Since I'd rest my finger on the edge of the guard anyway.
Which is even safer with the glock/XD style trigger...

[jnschwie]

To my knowledge, no one has done the research to see if SA causes more NDs under stress. In the research I've read about, every participant used a Glock (DA) simulator regardless of whether they normally carried that type or not. And despite all the trigger-fondling, there were very few NDs.

Concur, and here's the other thing I was thinking about. (I want to leave the SA/DA thing aside again).

All that research is simulated. Obviously, you can't do real world research (unless you consider retrospective case reviews "research"). When you hear about AD/ND's, there is, in my mind, a WORLD of difference between cops and private citizens.

Cops need to draw and decide somewhat more frequently than the rest of us. They may draw and not shoot. Citizens should NOT be drawing and yelling and "deciding." Virtually every opinion on this tiny subforum of teh intarweb agrees, the gun doesn't come until you are ready to shoot, right?

So, while people can hypothesize about "trigger fondling" in a case like the Killeen Luby's massacre, you simply do NOT hear stories about that. (At leat I haven't, and I suspect if they were commonplace, they'd be ALL over the news). The "shooting" stories you hear are of two types, basically.

1) Person draws gun, fires at person (intentionally). Right or wrong doesn't matter (example, home defense vs. gang violence), neither does whether they connected with the target. Point being: its not an AD/ND, it was a conscious attempt.

2) People "playing" (cleaning it loaded, kids exploring, untrained cowboy action) with gun when AD/ND occurs. -But these aren't people standing in line at Luby's pointing a gun, fondling a trigger, and trying to decide whether or not to shoot, when "oops!" it "went off."


So to argue that just because law enforcement agencies (some) prefer DAO, therefore we all should is just silly, in my mind.

[sweater]

I mean there are people reholstering Glocks worldwide every day who manage to get it back in the holster without blowing their feet off. :) So it's probably not that big a problem.

No, we just keep our feet out of the way. ;)

- mike

[Trango]

Dude Mike my friend who competes had an AD into his foot, while reholstering in a comp in Manila...ouch.

[Barf Bag]

I have a friend who had a DAD (Dumb Ass Discharge) into his foot, first it went through the chair he was sitting in about an inch from his testes, then through the foot, then through the floor into the basement apartment through the coffee table down there. those darned .357 mags can go and go and go. amazingly he still has his entire foot and can walk, run and jump all the same, very lucky.

[quivvy]

This guy is in Boulder, CO., No shipping FTF, and is a good local business as well. He does not have a shop to support and sells for $25 over his cost. Did you even look at the links before replying?

Nope. Didnt check the links. My apologies. Glad you brought Paul to my attention though - Good guy to know it seems like. Also, in regards to internet stuff, it was mentioned before and I was simply speaking in general terms of internet sales - not directly your post.

BARF BAG - How in the fawk did he get a AD while sitting in a chair... IN A HOUSE!?

[denverd0n]

I have a friend who had a DAD (Dumb Ass Discharge) into his foot...
Yeah, a lot of people talk about having an AD (Accidental Discharge), and some people use the term ND (Negligent Discharge). I kind of like DAD, though. I'm going to use it from now on. My guess is that at least 80% of the things that people refer to as ADs are actually DADs! No accident, just dumb-assedness!

[Barf Bag]

BARF BAG - How in the fawk did he get a AD while sitting in a chair... IN A HOUSE!?

It wasnt an AD, it was a DAD. He was sitting in the chair and another guy picked it up off the table near him and was messing with it (mason crew, drunk, need i say more) anywhooo, the guy messing with it cocked it and when Rob grabbed it it went off, like I said, a DAD

[DanaT]

Yeah, a lot of people talk about having an AD (Accidental Discharge), and some people use the term ND (Negligent Discharge). I kind of like DAD, though. I'm going to use it from now on. My guess is that at least 80% of the things that people refer to as ADs are actually DADs! No accident, just dumb-assedness!

Isn't a DAD what happens after a night of really heavy drinking that you find out about 3 or 4 weeks later????

-Dana

[denverd0n]

Isn't a DAD what happens after a night of really heavy drinking that you find out about 3 or 4 weeks later????
Yeah, I think Dumb-Ass Discharge would apply in that situation, too.

[Yota]

Yeah, I think Dumb-Ass Discharge would apply in that situation, too.


:lmao:

[kdl_golden]

So Zach,

Since we've covered everything (except the 9mm vs. 45ACP dilemma) in this thread update us. Did you get anything yet?

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

no gun yet... I have not been able to find one (have not been looking too hard) I e-mailed that guy in boulder and he never replied... I am going to moab next week so I will pursue it more when I get back. plus the funds are in hold being that I will be in moab next week... when I get back I will call that guy in boulder though...


Zach

[Letum]

Well to tackle the .45 vx 9mm debate. If you just intend to practice and not use it specifically for defense the 9mm is cheaper to shoot. If you are looking for something that will stop a person with one shot go with the .45. The 9mm just dosen't ahve the stopping power. I have seen people shot with a 9mm and it took more than one shot to bring them down. That was with ball ammunition so it might be a different case with hollow points though. Just my humble opinion.

[kdl_golden]

The 9 vs. 45 thing was a joke!

Shot placement is MUCH more important than caliber, really, If you don't hit what your aiming at it doesn't matter what your shooting.

[jnschwie]

Yeah, let's not debate ammo here.

Let him get his piece. XD9 sounds perfect for his intended application.

[PhantomD AKA Zach]

Yeah, let's not debate ammo here.

Let him get his piece. XD9 sounds perfect for his intended application.

I am amazed this has gone on for two pages...

I will post up pics when I get it... I am leaving to moab in about one hour!!!

truth be told I might not get it till july as I am going to be going on a two month trip in may...

Zach

[ccondrey]

I have decided that with all the 9mm vs .45 talk that I have a sloution:

I'll apply the FMJ / hollow point logic to it and alternate 9mm, .45, 9mm, .45, 9mm, .45...

No wait - .45, 9mm, .45, 9mm, .45, 9mm. (hmmm - I wonder which one should go first...;)

No, I got it - .45FMJ, 9mm HP, 45 HP, 9mm FMJ, 45 FMJ...

:flipoff2:

BTW - Do let us know what you decide on.

[Jake_Blues]

The offer to take you out shooting is still open, if you want to try various calibers, guns, etc!

-E

[crowdedsilence]

I work at a pawn shop, if theres something cheap, theres something wrong with it

[theirishavenger]

Jake, I'm in the same boat Zach is-looking for a gun. You care if I tag along the next time you go out? I'm in Greeley. Where do you shoot at?

Chris

[Jake_Blues]

Jake, I'm in the same boat Zach is-looking for a gun. You care if I tag along the next time you go out? I'm in Greeley. Where do you shoot at?

Chris

I usually shoot at Pawnee Sportsmens Center, which is about 20 minutes from Greeley I guess, it's on WC71 just north of 382. Web site is http://www.pawneesports.com/.

If the weather is nice I might go this Saturday for a bit. I only have two pistols, a Kimber 1911 clone in .45 ACP and a .22 rimfire. I just target shoot, I don't carry for defensive purposes, and I don't hunt. So my pistols are chosen more for their accuracy than anything else.

If anyone else wants to come along and bring more guns, it would be fun to try out all sorts of new toys!

-E

[theirishavenger]

I've been wanting to check Pawnee out but haven't made it out there yet. I wonder if they rent pistols....

[trojanman]

x2. Love my Taurus .357 Tracker.

i can't believe this is only at a x2

My vote is still for a revolver :P

[18to80DDC]

How much does it cost to shoot at Pawnee? I usually just go out to the grasslands, but I would like to shoot at a range. Chris, I'm in Evans and for pistols have a XD 45, XD 9 and I can bring a Highpoint 9 if you want to see what not to buy.

[Jake_Blues]

I've been wanting to check Pawnee out but haven't made it out there yet. I wonder if they rent pistols....

Not as far as I know, and their website doesn't mention it. It's a decent enough place, but nothing fancy. The pistol range is new and pretty nice, the rifle range is starting to show its age.

How much does it cost to shoot at Pawnee? I usually just go out to the grasslands, but I would like to shoot at a range. Chris, I'm in Evans and for pistols have a XD 45, XD 9 and I can bring a Highpoint 9 if you want to see what not to buy.

It's 10 dollars for two hours. Not too bad. Much cheaper than an indoor range.

-E

[18to80DDC]

Is that a member fee or can anyone get in for $10?

[theirishavenger]

Hey, a mini M&G! Maybe I'll ask the boss for this Sat. off.

Chris

[Jake_Blues]

Is that a member fee or can anyone get in for $10?

No membership required. If you do get a membership there, you can shoot for free anytime you want (even if the range is normally closed). It's a pretty sweet deal. But 10 bucks for non-members to shoot for 2 hours during public hours.

-E

[18to80DDC]

Sweet deal jake thanks. A north end meet and shoot would be cool, but of course I'm working Saturday. I'd be up for next weekend though.

[newracer]

I am a member of the Northern Colorado Rod and Gun Club. $80 a year and I can shoot anytime from dawn to dusk. I'll also offer to take anyone shooting who wants to try some different stuff. I have 3 Glocks, a Sig Trailside, AR-15, several 10/22's, Marlin 17hmr, CZ 527 in 204 Ruger, Ruger Mark II in 300 win mag, and numerous shotguns. I want to buy the new Taurus 1911.

Not sure the next time I'll get out. Maybe next weekend. We could all go to the range I belong to, no fee. Only stipulation is that you can only go once, then you have to become a member, but I don't think they really keep track of it.

[Jeffro600]

I am a member of the Northern Colorado Rod and Gun Club. $80 a year and I can shoot anytime from dawn to dusk. I'll also offer to take anyone shooting who wants to try some different stuff. I have 3 Glocks, a Sig Trailside, AR-15, several 10/22's, Marlin 17hmr, CZ 527 in 204 Ruger, Ruger Mark II in 300 win mag, and numerous shotguns. I want to buy the new Taurus 1911.

Not sure the next time I'll get out. Maybe next weekend. We could all go to the range I belong to, no fee. Only stipulation is that you can only go once, then you have to become a member, but I don't think they really keep track of it.

Id love to get out and burn some ammo! Ive been a reloading fool the last couple months since i havent spent much time with the Jeep and the weathers been crappy, so i have quite a stockpile!!

[Jake_Blues]

Sweet deal jake thanks. A north end meet and shoot would be cool, but of course I'm working Saturday. I'd be up for next weekend though.

Well, I'll be in Moab from this Sunday till next Saturday. But y'all can go without me :D If anyone does want to go this Saturday, just say so and I'll go.

-E

[18to80DDC]

I am a member of the Northern Colorado Rod and Gun Club. $80 a year and I can shoot anytime from dawn to dusk. I'll also offer to take anyone shooting who wants to try some different stuff. I have 3 Glocks, a Sig Trailside, AR-15, several 10/22's, Marlin 17hmr, CZ 527 in 204 Ruger, Ruger Mark II in 300 win mag, and numerous shotguns. I want to buy the new Taurus 1911.

Not sure the next time I'll get out. Maybe next weekend. We could all go to the range I belong to, no fee. Only stipulation is that you can only go once, then you have to become a member, but I don't think they really keep track of it.

Where is your club located newracer? That sounds like a great price for a year. I'd be up for next weekend. I've been wanting to check out a 17hmr. Not sure what a CZ 527 is, but I'll shoot anything.:D

[theirishavenger]

Ok, count me in for that next weekend too. Can't get this Saturday off, but I will have next Sat. after noon off.

Newracer-X2 where is your club?

[newracer]

It is a little north of Fort Collins on Owl Canyon Road.

http://www.ncrgc.org/

Saturdays will be tough for me since I have two sons in soccer. Might be able to do late on a Saturday but it tends to get windy at the range inthe afternoon. I'll check the soccer schedules.

Not sure what a CZ 527 is, but I'll shoot anything.:D It's a varmint rifle, heavy with a very light trigger.

[LipCJ7]

+1 on the meet and greet I am currently planning on going to the COAR-15 north shoot in April not sure if anyone else here is in that click or not http://coloradoshooting.org/co-ar15.htm
co-ar15

[18to80DDC]

Nah, I'm too poor to be in the AR-15 club.:P

[LipCJ7]

best thing about the AR-15 club is getting to shoot everyone elses toys that I can't afford!! plus they're shoots are a run what you brung lots of handguns some m-4's and m-1's also. Thing is I just don't know many good places to go shoot recreationally on this side of the mountains. Over in Grand Junction you can shoot all over, it seems that everytime I find a decent place to get some trigger time over here it gets shut down before long.

[quivvy]

Nah, I'm too poor to be in the AR-15 club.:P

you dont need an ar-15 or money to join. www.co-ar15.com <--just a good group of fellow CO shooters.

[LipCJ7]

quivvy are you going to the north shoot in April?

[quivvy]

april 14th? i plan to. i have out of town guests coming in the near future and have to double check dates. i'll only be bringing 2 guns though since I just sold one of my pistols and dont have a large collection :( You gunna be there?

[LipCJ7]

I would like to but never been to the north shoot before, I'm kinda hoping I can follow someone up there

[quivvy]

my email is abensman@naropa.net

email me, i'll give you directions, and we can caravan up there. its super easy. i found it on my own from the directions on the site and they are far easier than they appear.

[BJL913]

i recomend going to a local range and seeing if they rent weapons. alot of them around denver do and it gives you a chance to get a feel for what you like! I would personaly recomend any 1911 style weapon, but dont go to cheap, it might not work like you want! a .45 in a weapon that size actualy has less or very comparable recoil to lighter guns like glocks in 9mm or .40. glocks are great guns! they will go bang every time you pull the trigger and digest just about any kind of ammo you can throw at them! great choice if you do go with a polymer framed weapon!

[Matt]

Based on what I've read here and elsewhere I purchased the XD40 tonight. Thanks for the advice. :thumbsup:

I can't wait to get out and put some rounds though it. :D

[LipCJ7]

my email is abensman@naropa.net

email me, i'll give you directions, and we can caravan up there. its super easy. i found it on my own from the directions on the site and they are far easier than they appear.

Man you missed out what a beautiful day, man in this state you wait for months for the kinda day we had on Saturday. decent turnout too maybe 10-12 shooters. We sent about 500 rounds down field from 4 different guns mostly the AR but the Glocks got a workout as well hope you can make it next time!!

Matt Congrats on the XD your welcome to come shoot with us next month if your interested in a little more punch to go with your new toy.