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1BADCJ8
May 21st, 2006, 07:26 PM
Went up Spring Creek today...

For sure did more waiting and standing around than driving but it was still pretty fun.

I let a buddy in his own Jeep drive mine thru the rock garden while I spoted him which was actually quite fun to see my Jeep like that from the out side. Any way the Rockgarden was a total mess and after waiting for ever for the 18 or so in front of us to get thru we went thru our selfs.

That was the good part....

The bad part...

When we got up to the first real hard lefthand switch back there was a number of vehicles there, one was a very sweet Red Scrambler on 40 inch MTRs and some fairly stock ones. I think 7 or 8 total. Any way, there was one guy in a huge CJ-7 I think, black or real dark green with a corvette engine and 42 Iroks. big axles, 60 front maybe and a 14B rear and he had a very shinny stainless cooler or something on the rear end of it inside a stinger. If any one knows the Jeep I am describing I hope you ge tall over his butt BIG TIME! Well he had to be superman and go OFF THE TRAIL :mad: .

Instead of going up the turn he decides he is going up the little cut that has been logged off and people have actually stayed off of. I stated very loudly 4 times "You Are Off The Trail" the passenger looks right at me when I said it and then turned back front. Well not one of the so called adults there said anything to him, in fact finally a little kid says to me "Yeah He Knows", in fact they were trying to help him up it with there vast spotting knowledge. He got hung up with each attempt and was TEARING IT TO HELL :mad: . Would not give up. I finally went back down to my Jeep well back down the trail so I didn't have to watch.

Again if any one knows this fellow get after him about it please. If I'm not mistaken he might have had very light bleached hair maybe???? He even told me to move because I was in his way of going up it.... This is why stuff gets closed and no one else in his group said anything to him, even after I said if he wants to do this stuff he should be in Indy or Carnage BV...

Sad, quite sad.

OffroadGirl
May 21st, 2006, 09:17 PM
Did you get any pictures of the guy or the rig? That might get him to crawl out of the woodwork. I think I know where you're talking about -- the newly torn out section of the hill to the left of the third obstacle? To the left of the three small trees in this picture? That's definitely off trail.

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/060520/third_obstacle.jpg

It looks like people have been making their own trail there. That's new this year.
:(

josh j
May 21st, 2006, 09:23 PM
Nice to meet you up there today.
The CJ was dark blue, and the driveline specs you gave were correct. Don't know him though. We were part of the hold up at the rock garden, but even though I was towing a Commanche from about 200 yds below the rock garden to the top, to Idaho Spgs, and back to the trailer in Downieville, we were waiting too. Carnage that I know of today up there included a broken rear drive shaft on a full size blazer, a rolled sammi, skid plate coming off an XJ, TJ that up and died (maybe out of fuel), and the commanche that wouldn't run.

Only took 2 pics up there. A poser of mine, and the train we had going to get the MJ out.

I'll have to get that pink tow strap from you next time...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/billyhell/sprngcrk1.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/billyhell/sprngcrk3.jpg

OffroadGirl
May 21st, 2006, 10:00 PM
Mad flex, yo!

1BADCJ8
May 22nd, 2006, 06:36 AM
Yes Monica you hit it right on the nail head, that is the spot, only now that big rock you see there is no longer there, its down almost on the trail.

Of course I didnt take my camera with me yesterday. I have no idea if they were from here or not?? But if they are they know who they are and I have a Lic Plate number that I will turn over to the Forest Service. Not that I htik they will do anything but maybe...

Josh, it was great meeting you as well, Tyler is a very fun guy to be around as well and great to meet Rick as well. You guys didnt even remotley cause any kind of back up any where. You guys made the trail much faster and easier than all the rest for sure. We are for sure going to hit some other trails and your Jeep is awesome, I really liked it... Well for a sqaure head light Jeep :eek: :rolleyes: :D .

And Tyler lets light up those "may pop's"...lol. :flipoff2:

dave m
May 22nd, 2006, 11:43 PM
The TJ that died was mine, after smacking my t-case, it blew a fuse under the hood. The breakage was a real pain just because there was so much. Thanks to the guy from centennial that gave me a track bar to get home.

blue xj - overheating
grey xy - broke t-case mount then stripped bolts in crossmember
black yj - sheared leaf spring bolt causing front axle to shift back into the wheel well then they ripped off the brake line
white tj - blown fuse then front track bar broke in half (8 years of wheeling and one too many shots at the front the front diff.)

By the way, my wife drove her green tj, which was the first time that she has driven a hard trail. She had a lot of fun even things were moving so slowly all day. She was the only one in our group that didn't have any issues with her rig.

RkyMtHigh
May 23rd, 2006, 09:30 AM
You are very welcome on the trackbar Dave and hope everyone got home ok. It was a good day weather wise but there certainly was alot carnage on the trail.

I just got to the left turn in the trail and walked up to see the guy going off trail. I am glad you said something to them and at least tried 1BadCJ8. If I would have had any pictures I would love to forward them to right people but the battery in ours was dead. That kind of behavior does not help our effort to keep trails open.

Chris

Ink man
May 23rd, 2006, 09:16 PM
I am the one you are talking about in the cj. First of all get the facts straight before you go talking about me. There was tracks there already and i asked a couple of people if it was ok if i drove up there and they said yes. second, you did not say a word to me until i was backing down off of the rock. I am not the kind of person to go driving where i am not supposed to. I dont drive over vegitation or trees or anything like that. so if I was not supposed to go up that spot than i appoligize right now and wont do it again. there was no trees or grass on that spot. you should have came right up to me and said something if i offended you that bad, not wait and say something here.

josh j
May 24th, 2006, 12:17 AM
Tyler found the reason his MJ wouldn't run. It has the 5spd manual Peuguot tranny, and one of the wires going to it was shorting to the engine block. Would those wires be for the reverse light or have something to do with the shift indicator? The only thing I can think of that would make it run so bad is that when it was shorted, voltage was dropping to other sensors? That would have been an easy trail fix had we found it on the trail...

1BADCJ8
May 24th, 2006, 06:51 AM
No I said before you got on it that you were going off the trail, then 3 more times after you were on it and there were 3 old logs going across it that you went over and thru, they are there because its off limits. So YES I did say 4 times loudly that you were going off the trail and before you went up it it was not trashed like after you went over it. ANd I did leave long before you backed off it because I didnt want to watch it, so it wasnt after you backed off it. Even your buddy in the Red Scrambler didnt like it... or so he said to me. I wasnt offended as you say, I didnt like that you were off the trail, not offended.

Can you say here now that it was in the same condition after you went up it that it was in before you went over it? Can you say you didn't move that big boulder out toward the trail? No you cant. And All of your Buddy's heard me saying "You Are Off The Trail". No way around it, you were off the trail. I'd say you are probably a good guy and if you are not someone that goes off the trail like that on a normal basis that is a very good thing but you did that day and tore it up pretty good.

Thanks for stepping up and saying who you are, but yes as you can see here that was and is OFF the trail. BTW, very nice rig.

Ink man
May 24th, 2006, 08:47 AM
It was just rocks and dirt, and i did move one rock. but i did not tear the hell out of that spot. You may have said something but i did not hear you say anything at all. maybe next time actually walk up to the driver and say something so they can actually hear you. the guy in the scrambler is a good friend of mine and if he did not like i was going up that spot he sure did not say anything to me, even last night when i told him about the post he did not say a word to me about it. Long story short i wont go up that spot again. I am a man and will stand up and say what i got to say and appoligize when i do wrong. as far as you saying 4 times i could not say, i did not hear you once.

1BADCJ8
May 24th, 2006, 10:15 AM
Right on... Fare enough to me, if you didn't hear me you didn't hear me, I cant be you hearing any more than you can be me saying. Your passenger and the guy that was talking to you/spotting from behind both looked right at me when I said it as well a woman that was taking pictures and a taller thin guy with a long thin goatee, then finally the kid said "yeah he knows" so I shut up and walked away. Your buddy in the Scrambler did say to me that he was going to say something to you I guess he changed his mind or didn't want to say anything.

None the less I appreciate your stepping up and I'm sure everyone else does as well. We all have to keep these trails open by staying on them. I think everyone has gone off a little at least from time to time from not knowing what is good and what isn't (see Carnage)... Who heard or who didn't really doesn't matter at this point, what does matter is I said something you replied and its noted again that its an off trail spot, hopefully it will have others stay off of it as well.

1BADCJ8
May 24th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Josh thats way cool you guys found what was up. I dont know anything about thos transmissions, have only heard they have prollums. Any way glad its squared away. Just sent you a PM.

YJgirl
May 25th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Remember folks - off trail is off trail. Even if you see tire marks already there and you are questioning if those should be there then it's probably a good idea to not follow suit. It doesn't matter if it's rocks and dirt vs. vegitation, it is still more power for those that want our trails closed to get them closed - pictures are worth a thousand words.

OffroadGirl
May 26th, 2006, 01:27 PM
I added the info to http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=36 -- I'm guessing a lot of people will start taking that illegal route now because it looks pretty worn. We were there the day before and it already looked like part of the trail, but we had been there before and knew it wasn't legal. If it was someone's first time there they would have no way of knowing, unfortunately.

Wally
May 26th, 2006, 02:04 PM
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/060520/third_obstacle.jpg
It looks like people have been making their own trail there. That's new this year.
:(

What did it look like before, i've never run this trial :shrug:

dave m
May 26th, 2006, 03:26 PM
for one, people are driving right next to the 3 aspens. You used to HAVE to passenger side the big rock. I think there is another spot way left that this picture doesn't show.

REDLYNER
May 26th, 2006, 03:45 PM
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/060520/third_obstacle.jpg

I have not been on this trail, but unfortunately, I do not see the "off trail" part of this picture. When I run this trail, where in this picture am I not supposed to drive? There aren't any markers as far as I can see. It just looks like a dirt road with rocks in it.

I see the three Aspens, but what is wrong with the trail beside them?

YJgirl
May 26th, 2006, 08:25 PM
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/060520/third_obstacle.jpg


Here we are stuck in a quagmire (sp). I know exactly where this "short cut" is and it is very heavily traveled. If you had not run the trail before 2003 there is no way you would have known it was not the actual route because that is when it was created. I have pictures of our jeep on that route pre-roll, so it's been there for a while although it is a user created route.
My $.02: Who ever runs the trail next take the time to build up a wall to protect the 3 Aspens and prevent further erosion. We need to mitigate the damage ourselves. There is physically no way feasable to block the path without instructions from the FS to allow buck and cable fencing (and were do we get that money from?). Furthermore the Clear Creek RD knows about the short cut and has done nothing (sound familiar?...boulder)
With the new OHV rule in place this "short cut" may be added, or removed from the trail inventory, but it may not even be in FS jursidiction given there is a mine right around the bend (some person may have the rights to the mine). But with that said, given that I know Spring Creek Trail goes across several mining claims tells me that the FS will not try to get easments with the owners of those claims.....and we know where that goes. :(

Gunter
May 27th, 2006, 09:24 AM
It was just rocks and dirt, and i did move one rock. but i did not tear the hell out of that spot. You may have said something but i did not hear you say anything at all. maybe next time actually walk up to the driver and say something so they can actually hear you. the guy in the scrambler is a good friend of mine and if he did not like i was going up that spot he sure did not say anything to me, even last night when i told him about the post he did not say a word to me about it. Long story short i wont go up that spot again. I am a man and will stand up and say what i got to say and appoligize when i do wrong. as far as you saying 4 times i could not say, i did not hear you once.
here is an idea--if you see a place in colorado,with no tire tracks,or any recent tire tracks--it is CLOSED.duh! there is NO place in colorado that is undiscovered.no one wheels over logs for fun.the main road,the main trail is where you need to stay on.damn it is not hard to figure out.
this whole deal sounds as smart as these idiots here in LV.
scott

OffroadGirl
May 27th, 2006, 11:19 AM
I thought we weren't supposed to change trails, even if we think we're improving them or putting them back the way they were? If we rebuild the wall that's what we're doing.

I took a look at some pictures from a year ago, and it looks like an entire pine tree is missing!

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/050611/third_obstacle.jpg

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/050611/robert_on_the_third_obstacle_part_2.jpg

That's why we couldn't get very close to those aspens before. Also, the illegal route to the far left of the aspens was never anywhere near the trail but now it looks like part of the trail because it's been driven so much. That used to be quite far away from the regular trail.
:(

Whitey
May 27th, 2006, 11:59 AM
Trails change over the years from the elements.

This is from Trail Damage 7-06-2003

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/030706/dave_up_the_first_hill_part_1.jpg

Now, spot the differences, this is from 5-7-2006

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid205/pd477dc975aebb3f2340782febc286edb/ef164f55.jpg

Changes because of the elements are one thing, but, changes from illegal/off trail 4x4 travel are really unnecessary. Sometimes, things need to be moved to open a trail, so, I certainly hope that is allright. (like fallen trees)

Rk Crlr
May 27th, 2006, 02:49 PM
Notice the one big change that wasn't the elements. The tree was cut down. Same as "Kiss Me Tree" on Holy Cross. That pisses me off to no end... I'll definately report someone doing something like that in a heartbeat.

YJgirl
May 27th, 2006, 04:38 PM
I thought we weren't supposed to change trails, even if we think we're improving them or putting them back the way they were? If we rebuild the wall that's what we're doing.


I think you misunderstood me. Building a wall to protect the trees from further damage is not changing the trail, it is protecting the trees. Depending upon where you get the rocks from would determine if the trail changes or not. All that would be needed is small rocks stacked around the trees like a fence. Using bigger rocks to protect the trees is a no-no because then the bigger rock becomes the obstacle, and POOF - there goes the trees.

Hardcor4x4
May 31st, 2006, 03:36 PM
I have a picture of that switchback from about.....5-6 years ago. It has changed A LOT. I'll look for it tonight and scan it in and post it up so we can all see the difference. I also have several other pictures all along that trail as far back as 6 years ago. Me and Pioneer and his dad used to run this trail years ago with ease in stock CJ's with no lockers, 30-31's and I think we may have had a 1" or so shackle lift.

nhlbill
May 31st, 2006, 04:50 PM
The changes to that corner are minor compared to the rock garden and bypass for the rock garden IMO.

I have not been up for a while, but if I took that trail right now and saw the same picture that is in #18 post, I would think nothing of going to the left of the big rock. In fact the picture shows some obvious rock stacking and compressed dirt with tire tracks on it. Trails change on a regular basis from use, thats what makes them fun to do again and again.

I would not drive over logs myself, unless they were laying on what I thought was the trail and there was no other way around.

Anyway, if you see someone doing something you think is wrong. Talk to the person doing the wrong doing, not bystanders or passengers as they are not the ones in the act of the wrong doing. Thats the only way we are going to make a difference and hault the abuse or misunderstanding. That way the driver cannot say "you never said that to me" or "I didn't know that" and the sole responsibility for their actions lays with the driver.

The flip side is there are way too many people up there trying to be "trail cop", who get all upset if you don't do things their way even if your not doing anything wrong. To those types I say :flipoff2:

Whitey
May 31st, 2006, 05:51 PM
I have not been up for a while, but if I took that trail right now and saw the same picture that is in #18 post, I would think nothing of going to the left of the big rock. In fact the picture shows some obvious rock stacking and compressed dirt with tire tracks on it.........
Because you haven't been on the trail for awhile, I'd like to mention that the part you're talking about is part of the trail.

The off-trail part is between the group of 3 aspen trees on the left and the evergreen trees behind the aspens. When you are out there on the switchback, the closed part is noticeable and to me, readily apparent.

It's not normal for a trail that has been in use for years to have a clump of aspens growing in the middle of a swithchback and a loose dirt hillside cut-off to the main part of the trail. When you go again, you'll see it. It sounds like you have some common sense so with a little reasoning, there is no question. IMO, the only question is if folks ignore the obvious.

1BADCJ8
June 1st, 2006, 05:29 PM
Wow Monica I didn't even remember that tree being there but now remember the first time I went up that having part of it in the Jeep with me (on 34's, a few moons ago). Heck there isn't even a stump there now but it did seem like there was quite bit of room in there. Before if you tried to climb that big rock on the left of the "Legal" part you would have been really close to that pine tree.

Any way I am glad that once again I am glad that this is out in the open and being discussed. However, While I stand by my feeling at the time I myself have to believe that "Ink Man" did not go on that part openly knowing that he was doing something wrong. Perhaps should have followed his suspicion, but certainly not on purpose. I think if some does that on purpose they don't stand up, but he did.

As I stated earlier what really matters is that we are talking about it in the open now and hopefully next year it wont be that the aspens are completely gone. When I first posted this I almost felt like I was being viewed as starting trouble or something, but I'm glad to see that it has come alive into and what it was intended to do... Spark everyones attention to it once again. Personally for the most part I find Spring Creek pretty darn boring, but it has very fun spots and is very popular, so it is imperative that we all try to keep it open. Plus its just up the street from me.

I do agree with with Val as well, if we simply try to protect/cover it its really not changing the trail, even if rocks are used from right around it. BUT I'm not even close to an aficionado on that part. Monica has prolly ran every trail this state has to offer with in the realm of her vehicle so she would know more than I.

I know that same day a fellow in a stock old Dodge pick-up was giving it hell on the "by-pass", poor truck. So I also agree that is a problem area, but the "by-pass" has been there for a very long time and is not easy any more either. Trails do change every year, to me that is part of the fun of running them and keeps them interesting. Living here I have ran Bill Moore, the Loop, Spring Creek and others so many times if they didn't change a little bit it wouldn't be any fun. When I have my event each year I give the "stay on the trail spiel" and tread lightly and tell everyone if your off the trail I'll ask you to not be with us. There is always an instance when you may have to go off a little to let someone pass or something, no way around that, but that is where "treat lightly" must be observed and abided by, as well this is a bunch different that going crazy and peeling out every where and going thru water sheds that will take forever to heal (Lochlomand). I know small and insignificant but if every one of us does the same would it be better?

Like Jeff (Hippy) down a Chinaman's a few weeks back... I saw him hand every person there a "Stay the Trail" sticker, even if he didn't know them (yes Jeff mine is on my Jeep...lol). Its all these small things that can at least help make a difference, or maybe I'm full of it? I dunno but I Love doing what we all do and want to keep doing it for a long time to come. Plus... I spent all this dang money on my rig :shrug: .

IntrepidXJ
June 1st, 2006, 06:05 PM
August 05.....Looks like someone tried to block it off at one time

http://www.myxj.net/trail/Colorado2005/Spring_Creek_8-24-05/photos/DSC03478.JPG

Kinda looks like the tree that is missing was half gone then:

http://www.myxj.net/trail/Colorado2005/Spring_Creek_8-24-05/photos/DSC03488.JPG

Oscar
June 2nd, 2006, 09:15 AM
OK this is the same problem we had in Washington. The locals for the most part know their trails but visitors don't. So for me if I rolled up on that section it would appear that it was part of the trail. What we ended up doing is running a cable with orange streamers on it across sections that aren't open. Fact is a stack of trees or rocks is usually mistaken for deadfall or an obstacle. I am not calling anybody here an idiot but with that said closures must be idiot proof. Just a question has anybody adopted Spring Creek and does the state associations have a fund for such things? The communication here in Colorado is so much better than the PNW so these things could be nipped in the bud before they get to the condition of this area. It sounds like this has been a known problem for awhile. OK please don't shot me for this little rant.

oleblue
June 9th, 2006, 12:44 PM
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/spring_creek/060520/third_obstacle.jpg

It looks like people have been making their own trail there. That's new this year.
:(

Found it, took me forever, but here is how it was in June 2002.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/oleblue/IMAG0015.jpg

OffroadGirl
June 9th, 2006, 02:51 PM
When that big rock fell off the side and into the trail (2004?) it really changed everything. It made it harder, and I think that's when people start making their own bypasses.

I remember a big discussion about the bypass in the Rock Garden, maybe two years ago. Some people had blocked off the bypass because they felt it wasn't a legal route, and many people here said that you should never change the trail, even if you firmly believe that your changes are right. Since then, we never change anything or block illegal routes -- we leave it as we found it and report it if it's major.

Hell, the last time I was on Carnage Canyon in Boulder (a couple of months ago) I was annoyed at some ATVs on what I thought was the illegal route, but then I got home and started asking around and it turned out I was the one on the illegal route. Even though I printed the pictures from the home page here and did my research ahead of time, sometimes it's impossible to know which routes are legal after enough people have taken them.