Another freaking pit bull attack.......

[Lil_Mule]

This time in El Paso county... oh, and the boy lost his arm

[Frank Z]

Link?!?

[Lil_Mule]

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=8a7b6c9c-0abe-421a-0168-7fb4bc999895&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

[Yota]

Time for a a pitbullocaust.

[Sound_Man]

Time for a a pitbullocaust.

Why? They are such good dogs... According to many on this board they wouldn't hurt a fly let alone a little kid :rolleyes:


Anyone that has one and has kids is just not thinking properly.

If you want to introduce me to your "friendly" pit I would be glad to, just ignore the 9mm in my hand when I meet the dog.

http://www.temastauffer.com/big/Pitbull.jpg

[Frank Z]

Saw the report on the news, biten and scratched up pretty good but no loss of limb.

[ZJbrandon]

...Anyone that has one is just not thinking properly.


there, fixed it for ya..:D

[WhtJeep]

My friend has one and it used to bite when it was younger but we taught it that biting people is wrong. Now she will not bite anyone. THat is unless you play around with her ( like most dogs )

[Yota]

I have come to believe that gentle pit bulls are the result of being trained against their nature.

Most dogs are capable of biting, but few have killing as a bred-in part of their genetic make-up. In fact, most domestic dogs have been bred for millenia for their differences from their vicious ancestors: wolves, coyotes, and fox.

The name says it all: pit bull. These dogs have been bred for many generations for the purpose of fighting in the pit. It should be no surprise when they do what they were bred to do: kill.

I have known rednecks who trained their pits to be vicious. Yes, it is possible to train other dogs to be vicious, but pit bulls have long been a favorite breed for those who want to have a competitive pit fighter or just a tough mean dog.

[Dave McDonald]

Saw the report on the news, biten and scratched up pretty good but no loss of limb.

He was talking about the boy in a previous attack. He can't speak yet due to the injuries on his face, and he's lost an arm.

[Frank Z]

Gotcha.

[jkskier]

This is sure to give my reputation rating a boost...

I don't understand why you would put yourself and others at risk. To me, having one of these animals is like having a big ass mall crawler. It just screams overcompensation to everyone but the owner.

Although I do agree, we need to find something new to bitch about.

[Lil_Mule]

I think we need to find something new to bitch about as well.... but it's a problem and the attacks keep coming. I hate to say it but I agree... pitbullocaust

[Snotty]

Pitbulls don't kill people, People that own Pitbulls kill people...

[Waifer2112]

I think we need to find something new to bitch about as well.... but it's a problem and the attacks keep coming. I hate to say it but I agree... pitbullocaust

Absolutely!! We should kill all the peoples pets who even remotely look like a pit bull. Then we'll never have to worry about a dog attack again!!!

Oh, wait. Then the media will fixate on Rotties. Well, we did it before, so...let's gather up all the peoples pets and kill them again!!!! Now we'll never have to worry about another dog attack.


Oh, wait. Then the media will fixate on Mastiffs. Well........

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Cresso]

I'm quite content to stop after the pit bulls are gone.

[Waifer2112]

I'm quite content to stop after the pit bulls are gone.

But as we all know, the media isn't. Do you all really and trully think pits are the only dogs that attack and hurt people? Why don't we ever hear of any other dog attacks? Because they don't exist?

Think for yourselves, people.

And with that, I'm done. The media hold a much stronger hold on you all then I ever will.

[Snotty]

http://abclocal.go.com]A[/url] helicopter rushed Tyler to Children's Hospital but the boy later died.

Deputies believed the dogs belong to a neighbor. 3 dogs are now quarantined at the Fresno County SPCA. 2 are Pit Bull mix.

Animal control officers were surprised by the dogs' demeanor. "They just seem like normal house dogs. They're wagging their tails. They're showing no signs of aggression."

And one for Waifer: Find the PitBull (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html)

[Cresso]

Eh, you're probably right. I retract my earlier comment. Killing all pit bulls isn't the answer.

This is sorta like gun control. Do we have the right to have something capable of so much damage? Sure, that's what this country is based on. Personally, I would hope that people wouldn't want to own something so dangerous. I don't want a law against guns or pit bulls. I want people to abhor the thought of owning them.

I live in a dream world. :D

[Yota]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier

The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) is a breed of dog in the terrier group, one of several breeds loosely classified as pit bulls. These dogs are known for their strength, loyalty, and ?gameness,? or tenacity.

APBTs are often associated with the urban and hip hop culture, and many young (predominantly male) people purchase them on the grounds of wanting a 'tough dog', which often ends up maltrained and in poor health. Due to bad publicity caused by these irresponsible owners, people unfamilar with the dogs often consider them a scary dog and may even avoid walking near them. However, it is widely acknowledged that the problems that people associate with the breed, mainly aggression, are most likely due to many people having bred them specifically for fighting, have abused them, or both.

So if they are "bred specifically for fighting" then wouldn't that lead to a problem with the breed?

[Yota]

Eh, you're probably right. I retract my earlier comment. Killing all pit bulls isn't the answer.

This is sorta like gun control. Do we have the right to have something capable of so much damage? Sure, that's what this country is based on. Personally, I would hope that people wouldn't want to own something so dangerous. I don't want a law against guns or pit bulls. I want people to abhor the thought of owning them.

I live in a dream world. :D

Well not exactly a true analogy tho. A gun cannot fire itself. A pit bull can attack of its own free will.

I will say that I am not a fan of having a pitbullocaust. In fact the idea makes me cringe. But I think the breed ban (with appropriate grandfathering and due process) is reasonable.

[Lil_Mule]

I hate to tell you this but pitbulls are responsible for more fatal attacks than any other breed.... and if I have to choose between pitbulls and children or irresponsible owners of pitbulls and children then I'm going to choose children.

I don't like the solution either but when you hear about a child losing a limb or a life every week because of a specific breed of dog.... it's not the owner. At most it's a combination.

[jeepinwelch]

:deadhorse:

[CJ5in']

I am not a fan of having a pitbullocaust either. What there should be is a stupidownerocaust. I only have 2 questions - 1. Why do you need a Pit Bull? 2. If you owned a tiger, would you let it roam around the yard/neighborhood too?

[Yota]

I hate to tell you this but pitbulls are responsible for more fatal attacks than any other breed.... and if I have to choose between pitbulls and children or irresponsible owners of pitbulls and children then I'm going to choose children.

I don't like the solution either but when you hear about a child losing a limb or a life every week because of a specific breed of dog.... it's not the owner. At most it's a combination.

True dat. There is definitely a genetic problem with that breed.

Supporting example: I have read and heard and seen first hand (had 3 of them growing up) that the Cocker Spaniel breed has a problem with temperament. And cockers are bred for cuteness and hunting skeels! Now imagine how much worse a dog bred for evil..ness must be! :eek: :D

[satan]

:deadhorse: <<<--- LMAO - saw that and was thinking " ... now the smilieys are beatin-up the poor pit bull... " :shrug:

[Rando]

But as we all know, the media isn't. Do you all really and trully think pits are the only dogs that attack and hurt people? Why don't we ever hear of any other dog attacks? Because they don't exist?

Think for yourselves, people.

And with that, I'm done. The media hold a much stronger hold on you all then I ever will.
everyone knows all dogs bite and sometimes attack people. with pit bulls it's the ferocity and power they have that make them so dangerous.
i also agree that with a lot of people it's a need to compensate for something.
i would never have one just for the fact that they're kind of dumb (intelligence wise) compared to other breeds.









is that horse dead yet?

[Getsome]

The only thing that I'll add to this is that I was reading an artical in a vet office about pitbulls and it was written by a lady who had breed and raised them for the last 30 years. Her main point was that pitbulls are horriable guard dogs because they were breed to fight not guard, and are very good with kids because they are not people aggressive. She went on to state that all of these pit's that attack people have been breed for something other then what they were intended and are not "true" pitbulls.
I think that she's correct in that we have people doing back yard breeding these dogs into something that they were never intended to be. As many of you know my wife is a vet tech and has said that ever pitbull that she has meet has been wonderful and not aggressive twords anyone at the clinic. Working in Cherry Hills you don't see many pitbulls. Wonder why?

[Zed Mikey]

I still wonder how many of these attacks are actually pitbulls. Most people wouldn't know a pitbull if it bit them in the ass. And yes, that pun was necessary. Plus... if the aggression can be bred in... it can be bred back out. Why can't that be the solution?

[Snotty]

I still wonder how many of these attacks are actually pitbulls. Most people wouldn't know a pitbull if it bit them in the ass. And yes, that pun was necessary. Plus... if the aggression can be bred in... it can be bred back out. Why can't that be the solution?

Because to many people want the dog for it's aggresive nature. You will never get rid of it. And you are right, not to many people would know a pure breed pit... But nothing will change the stigma that this type of animal has.

[LJRubi]

I'd be just a bit curious how well a pitbull would like a 210HP from my 41 mag
placed squarely in his chops.Although its probably the mean owners that need shot!:rant:
Matt

[Zed Mikey]

Because to many people want the dog for it's aggresive nature. You will never get rid of it. And you are right, not to many people would know a pure breed pit... But nothing will change the stigma that this type of animal has.
So we come back to people being the problem... like with guns. It isn't the dog's fault it has been bred for fighting. We can't stop people from breeding pitbulls to be agressive, so we should ban the breed (they will breed another dog for its agressive tendencies, but that is another point for later...). How is that different from... we can't stop people from killing each other with guns, so we should ban guns?

[Snotty]

That's the way it works...

[Zed Mikey]

Sucks, doesn't it?

[Zed Mikey]

Oh, just to add another analogy...

We can't stop people from driving off trail, so let's ban four wheeling.

[OffroadGirl]

All of your analogies aren't quite right because shooting people and driving off trail are all things a person decides to do. A pit bull attacks because the pit bull wants to.

The better analogy is still keeping a pet tiger in a residential area. It shouldn't be legal because it's dangerous, even though some tigers are very sweet and wouldn't hurt anyone. Tigers are bred to hunt and kill, and the best owner in the world can only hope to train that out of one. It can be done, but it's not worth the risk to the rest of the neighborhood.

[Mog416]

How is that different from... we can't stop people from killing each other with guns, so we should ban guns?
This is a good point and made my brain hurt for a few moments. But here's what I came up with.

If we assume that pit bull is a subset of class dog, and gun is a subset of class weapon, then I will try to suggest that there are several uses for a gun for which there is no suitable substitute. For the uses of guns I can think of law enforcement, military enforcement, collecting, target shooting, hunting, self defense, and crime. Of those, law enforcement and military are discounted because we're talking about civilians; and crime is discounted because we're talking about civilians with brains. That leaves collecting, target shooting, hunting, and self defense where I will argue that there is no suitable substitute for guns in the class weapons. Unfortunately, I am in no condition to hunt elk with a bow.

Whereas in the case of pit bulls, I propose that there are many suitable substitutes in the greater class dogs for which there would not be a functionality gap.

This is just my thought; not trying to preach.

[Sound_Man]

All of your analogies aren't quite right because shooting people and driving off trail are all things a person decides to do. A pit bull attacks because the pit bull was bread to.


Fixed that for ya :D

[Thunk]

I really beleive its the owners fault completely for these attacks. Neglect, cruelty, abuse, all these things will make any dog mean. The problem with a pitbull is that they are so powerful. When they lock their jaw the damage is incredible! PitBulls were created to go up and take down bulls not other dogs. Thats what the locking jaw is for. The dog would latch on and hold the bull for the butcher to kill. Many times the dog was dead before the butcher got there but the jaw would stay locked strangling the bull. You would think that if owners learned a little about their dogs that they would take better precautions about keeping the dog from hurting anyone or anyone hurting the dog. Just as you wouldnt want to leave a loaded gun in the front yard where anyone could come up and pull the trigger. you wouldnt want to leave your pit bull inthe front yard where anyone can come up and pull their tail.

I guess my point is that if your dog bites someone, Doesnt matter what kind of dog, Doberman, Sheperd, Corky, You are at fault and you should have made surew it didnt happen. Yes some dogs are just mean but i refuse to beleive that a entire breed is bad.

Ok I'll surrender the soap box:D

Lets all go get drunk!:beer:

[OffroadGirl]

Fixed that for ya :D
Exactly my point.

[Yota]

I still wonder how many of these attacks are actually pitbulls. Most people wouldn't know a pitbull if it bit them in the ass. And yes, that pun was necessary. Plus... if the aggression can be bred in... it can be bred back out. Why can't that be the solution?

It could be bred out in theory. But doing so would require a reversal of the process that got them mean in the first place - and a very long time. Meaning all the rednecks would have to suddenly start selecting the pansiest pitties and breeding them. But that leads into the problem with redneck gene pool. We'd need to breed some smarts into those fools as well. :D

I wonder, too, if there are already lines of pit bulls that have NOT been bred for meanness but have been bred for other traits. I'm thinking along the lines of AKC-registered lines or something of that nature. Show dogs essentially.

e.g., Gags has a.. um... ordinary "house cat" that happens to resemble a bobcat. It was bred from many generations of cats for docility.

[Snotty]

I agree, you can re-do the breeding process for the dogs. And as Gags says, it can be done in short period of time. But how in the hell are we going to breed the stupidity out of the owners. I just don't see that happening anytime soon...

[Gags]

I agree, you can re-do the breeding process for the dogs. And as Gags says, it can be done in short period of time. But how in the hell are we going to breed the stupidity out of the owners. I just don't see that happening anytime soon...

That's the real question isn't it. Breeding the stupidity out of people...If only.

Free abortions paid for by our hard earned tax dollars. Probably the best government use for my money yet.

[Sound_Man]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/27/woman.mauled.ap/index.html

"THORNDALE, Texas (AP) -- A pack of six dogs mauled a 76-year-old woman to death as she worked in her yard, authorities said.

Lillian Loraine Stiles was riding on a lawn mower in her front yard Saturday when she was confronted by the dogs, described as pit bull-rottweiler mixed breeds, said Milam County Sheriff Charlie West.

Investigators think Stiles was attacked when she got off the mower and headed into her house.

Stiles had severe bites over her entire body, and a man who tried to help her was bitten on one leg, authorities said.

The dogs were found at the home of Stiles' neighbor, Jose Hernandez.

The sheriff's department will send the findings of its investigation to the Milam County District Attorney's Office, which will decide if any criminal charges will be filed against Hernandez.

Thorndale is located about 70 miles (115 kilometers) west of College Station."

[JKTODD]

Owners of pitbulls are the proverbial small dick crowd. They suffer from insecurities and lack of respect. By showing off with their "bad ass dogs" then they feel feel macho and tough. What's funny about it though is when you see these types educated people know that they are basically loosers. Really-what is the point of having a dog like this? Don't give me the crap about "they really are lovable dogs" I don't buy it. Spend the money on a gym, Krav Maga classes or a penal enlargement-just don't put any more people and kids at risk.

[whited]

Owners must be held accountable for the actions of their animals.

I don't think ownership should be restricted, but if your cute and
fuzzy Mongolian kills someone, then you go away, period.

Stupid "dog" people. :tisk:

Mostly the same crowd that rock chrome dubs on their Super Duty
trucks.

:thumbsdown:

[Clod Hopper]

The dogs were found at the home of Stiles' neighbor, Jose Hernandez.

What would you do if you owned several pitbulls which arrived back home covered in blood? Course it doesn't say that the dogs belonged to Jose, just that they were found there. Still..... I would have been out of the house trying to find the person hurt and see what I could do. Sitting at home like it wasn't my problem?

Would you still be able to sleep at night? What would you be thinking when those dogs were looking at you and licking thier chops?

The sheriff's department will send the findings of its investigation to the Milam County District Attorney's Office, which will decide if any criminal charges will be filed against Hernandez.

I wouldn't think this would be a difficult decision. It wasn't that long ago that a father was teaching his daughter to drive (in philadelphia, IIRC) when the girl lost control, went through a fence and killed a young mother. They went to jail for what I would consider an accident. So why not the owner of the dogs?

[trying very hard not to lose control here..... rrrrrrrrrrgggg.]

[Sound_Man]

Added my comments in your text

What would you do if you owned several pitbulls which arrived back home covered in blood? Easy thing here.. A few minutes later I would be calling the cops and cleaning my guns. Another call would be made to the animal control center to pick up whatever is left of them Course it doesn't say that the dogs belonged to Jose, just that they were found there. Still..... I would have been out of the house trying to find the person hurt and see what I could do. Sitting at home like it wasn't my problem?

Would you still be able to sleep at night? Nope that would haunt me What would you be thinking when those dogs were looking at you and licking thier chops? Hollow points will do..



I wouldn't think this would be a difficult decision. It wasn't that long ago that a father was teaching his daughter to drive (in philadelphia, IIRC) when the girl lost control, went through a fence and killed a young mother. They went to jail for what I would consider an accident. So why not the owner of the dogs? The owner should go to jail as far as I am concerned.

[trying very hard not to lose control here..... rrrrrrrrrrgggg.]

[Lil_Mule]

Apparently Longmont is looking at a ban now?

Krav Maga?? Is that like Bam Margera?

[Waifer2112]

Owners of pitbulls are the proverbial small dick crowd. They suffer from insecurities and lack of respect. By showing off with their "bad ass dogs" then they feel feel macho and tough. What's funny about it though is when you see these types educated people know that they are basically loosers. Really-what is the point of having a dog like this? Don't give me the crap about "they really are lovable dogs" I don't buy it. Spend the money on a gym, Krav Maga classes or a penal enlargement-just don't put any more people and kids at risk.

Just as all 4-wheelers tear up the trails. :rolleyes:

I feel the same about some gun owners. But I don't think every single one of them is in it for the penis size enlargement. Same with pit owners. Those who think they are badass 'cause their dog is badass are, unfortunately, going to gravitate toward pits. Of course, when all pit bulls are dead, these people will just stop breeding/training dangerous dogs, right? :rolleyes: We all know these same people will move on to Rotties or whatever the (then) current fad of "badass" dogs will be.

Only people who actually have pits as pets are the ones turning them in in cities with bans. So, in effect, all the ban is doing is killing off "good" dogs, while those who are using them for fighting or for their dicks to feel bigger will keep on breeding "bad" dogs.

[Yota]

Maybe true, Waifer, but in the short run we have a breed that is apparently genetically flawed due to decades of being artificially selected and bred for meanness. As a result we have a breed that keeps killing people. It's not the job of a city council to solve the problem with the breed. The job is to protect citizens in the short term from a breed that right now has a far greater number of fatal attacks than any other breed, including Rotties.

Will the rednecks of Aurora and Denver move on to breed vicious Rotties or Dobermans? Perhaps. But that doesn't eliminate the existing problem with Pit Bulls.

[JKTODD]

I understand your point about people moving on and breeding other nasty dogs. The next breed that is arriving is the Canary Island breed. Remember the woman in San Francisco? Pit bulls are just easy for the ignorant rednecks and gangsta types to get a hold of. Mastiffs are also bread for fighting in China and yet it's always the Pit Bulls that attack and kill. Unlike some I have seen Pitbulls Attacking-they completely loose their mind and will not stop. The only way to get them to release is to split their front legs apart-then you risk getting bit. I say hold the owners responsible-after enough go to prison for 25-30 years then maybe some will reconsider getting one of these dogs.

[Colin]

I dont know what to think about pitbulls. Probably because one of the most loving, friendly dogs Ive ever known was a pitbull. I would not be afraid to let my young kids play with it. Banning the breed seems like saying well, the arabs like to blow up buildings sometimes, so lets exterminate the whole race. But I do agree its a rising problem with the bulls, idk:shrug:

[Rimmer]

That was your experience with them...

Mine was that one bared it's teeth at me while standing between myself and my 5 year old daughter.

Both my niece and nephew have scars from their grandfathers pitbull.

And the one that I had caught running free in my front yard was destroyed after attacking 3 animal control officers.

Would you leave a loaded gun in your front yard with small kids walking around ?

Same thing IMO.

[Jeffro600]

DIE THREAD DIE!!!


http://kevinremde.members.winisp.net/images/beating_2Da_2Ddead_2Dhorse.gif
http://www.naxja.org/forum/images/smilies/dead_horse.gif
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/8937/deadhorse6bx.gif
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/dead_horse.gif

[JKTODD]

Lol

[Lil_Mule]

Hahahaha Never!!!

[Clod Hopper]

PITBULL DISPUTE FOREVER!!!!:usa:

[satan]

... Would you leave a loaded gun in your front yard with small kids walking around ? ...

Well, "yes" if they'd kill this thread then return the weapon to either my safe or chache...

... and, hey...

what exactly are you doing to this horse http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif there, Jeffro600 ? It's a bit confusing, shouldn't the horsie be in knee-highs or something??

[Yota]

Well, "yes" if they'd kill this thread then return the weapon to either my safe or chache...

... and, hey...

what exactly are you doing to this horse http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif there, Jeffro600 ? It's a bit confusing, shouldn't the horsie be in knee-highs or something??

:lmao:

[Sound_Man]

I brought this thread back because "a pack of six dogs mauled a 76-year-old woman to death as she worked in her yard"

Everytime I see another death or maiming from a pit I will post it here. If you don't want to read it then stay out of it. I think the same holds true for the majority here and the BF2 thread.

[Clod Hopper]

I think the same holds true for the majority here and the BF2 thread.

what thread? BFwhat? :confused:

[Waifer2112]

Now we know why...

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4313965,00.html

Excerpt:

An arrest affidavit for Muniz released Tuesday describes a family living in filth at their rented home on East Asbury Avenue in Aurora, with neglected dogs gnawing on furniture, walls, and carpeting.

A pit bull that was killed after attacking Gregg was described as having no detectable fat on its body and was determined by a veterinarian to have not been fed in at least 24 hours.

Investigators found conditions in the home to be "foul" and "in complete shambles," with an upstairs bedroom filled with "a very large amount of feces" and the garage piled high with rotting garbage.

Aurora Detective Hal Selden wrote that he was taken "aback" and that the "overpowering smell and stench (of the upstairs room) made my eyes begin to water it was so strong."

The backyard was described as being "covered throughout in feces."

The affidavit also paints the Muniz home as a kind of puppy mill or kennel.

One neighbor told police that he had seen city officials remove 20 puppies from the home two years ago, while another neighbor said she had seen anywhere from three to 14 dogs in the backyard of the home.



Any breed of dog would become mean if treated in such a way.

[whited]

I'm glad I was eating when I read that. :(

[Lil_Mule]

I'll totally agree with you on that comment. Any dog... actually animal and most likely human would have severe trauma and behavioural issues after living in such conditions.

On that point the owners should be shot. There is no excuse for doing that to anything that relies on you for it's life, love, and support.

On the flipside, pitbull attacks are increasing, the little boy lost his arm, and he has had to go through reconstructive surgery.

[Snotty]

Now we know why...

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4313965,00.html

Excerpt:

An arrest affidavit for Muniz released Tuesday describes a family living in filth at their rented home on East Asbury Avenue in Aurora, with neglected dogs gnawing on furniture, walls, and carpeting.

A pit bull that was killed after attacking Gregg was described as having no detectable fat on its body and was determined by a veterinarian to have not been fed in at least 24 hours.

Investigators found conditions in the home to be "foul" and "in complete shambles," with an upstairs bedroom filled with "a very large amount of feces" and the garage piled high with rotting garbage.

Aurora Detective Hal Selden wrote that he was taken "aback" and that the "overpowering smell and stench (of the upstairs room) made my eyes begin to water it was so strong."

The backyard was described as being "covered throughout in feces."

The affidavit also paints the Muniz home as a kind of puppy mill or kennel.

One neighbor told police that he had seen city officials remove 20 puppies from the home two years ago, while another neighbor said she had seen anywhere from three to 14 dogs in the backyard of the home.



Any breed of dog would become mean if treated in such a way.

Sure, but how many of these breeds are actually breed from the start to attack, hold on, and kill? So you take a dangerous animal to begin with, and amplify it. I mean really, how many "mean" and "abused" chihuihui's do you see killing and maiming people.

I know, an extreme example. But the problem is, these people are the type of people that make irresponsible owners. And since we can't pick and choose who can own what type of animal, the only way to remove the threat before an attack is to ban the breed.

And still, in the numbers that were posted before, something like 3% of registered dogs are PitBull types. Of the dogs that have attacked, maimed or killed people, 20% are pitbull types.

[Waifer2112]

Sure, but how many of these breeds are actually breed from the start to attack, hold on, and kill? So you take a dangerous animal to begin with, and amplify it. I mean really, how many "mean" and "abused" chihuihui's do you see killing and maiming people.

I know, an extreme example. But the problem is, these people are the type of people that make irresponsible owners. And since we can't pick and choose who can own what type of animal, the only way to remove the threat before an attack is to ban the breed.

And still, in the numbers that were posted before, something like 3% of registered dogs are PitBull types. Of the dogs that have attacked, maimed or killed people, are pitbull types.

And yet, black labs have consistently been the "top dog", if you will, of all dog bites. Snotty, are you ready to ban the breed? Or is not about aggressive dogs, really?

[Snotty]

"Dog Bites" are one thing. Maiming and killing is another.

Until we can get a handle on people, I think the dogs need to be banned in highly populated areas. I do think that killing them is extreme. but as this case has proven, even with the ban in place, you are not going to stop these types of people from owning these dogs.

[Lil_Mule]

I don't think you can classify losing an arm, a face, and death as a bite.... let's try and stay in the same area

[Eryl Flynn]

Still don't have a problem with Pitbulls, hell if you ban them the idiots like this will just find a new breed. And it will be the new pitbull.

Deal with the problem, the owners who do not raise and teach them right. Who don't keep them in a restricted area. Deal with them, and not the breed in general which is not the problem any way.

[Waifer2112]

I don't think you can classify losing an arm, a face, and death as a bite.... let's try and stay in the same area

You mean like the lady who just got the first face transplant? She woke up to her black lab ripping her face off. Is that in the same area?:flipoff2:

[Yota]

And yet, black labs have consistently been the "top dog", if you will, of all dog bites. Snotty, are you ready to ban the breed? Or is not about aggressive dogs, really?

Pit bulls have the most maulings/fatal attacks by a *large* margin. I've seen stats at some point, but alas my googletelligence fails me today.

I agree with Snotty's original point that, in this case, you're taking a breed that has generally been selectively bred for its fighting skills and placing it in an environment that accentuates those killer traits.

Similarly, you can take a pit bull and nurture it and coddle it and it may never attack.

But the genetic traits are still there that predispose it to violence - doesn't mean it always will attack.

I think that, as a breed, pits are far more dangerous than other breeds thanks to their genetics. Perhaps if they are outlawed people will begin selectively breeding rotties or dobies (some surely already are) for the same traits. But for now pits are the #1 killer.

[Eryl Flynn]

If you are for banning pits for the reasons you just stated you are for banning most terriers as well. They were bred for hunting killing also. And they could easily kill some small kids. If the Pit who was breed to fight each other and be docile to humans should be banned then so should many other breeds. The same arguments of why work on them as well.

It goes back to the same thing, you are blaming the symptom not the cause. You sound just like the gun control advocates.

[Yota]

If you are for banning pits for the reasons you just stated you are for banning most terriers as well. They were bred for hunting killing also. And they could easily kill some small kids. If the Pit who was breed to fight each other and be docile to humans should be banned then so should many other breeds. The same arguments of why work on them as well.

It goes back to the same thing, you are blaming the symptom not the cause. You sound just like the gun control advocates.

Lots of dogs were bred for hunting/killing. But that misses the rest of my point.

The point is that people have selectively bred pits for viciousness in large numbers for a long time. As a result, pits tend to have some genetic propensity for viciousness. Unfortunately, they also have the strength and jaw pressure to kill. That is a volatile combo.

A great example of what, I think, you're getting at is the cocker spaniel. Cockers have a general problem with their temperament because they were bred for years for their cuteness and not for good temper. Other breeds have other genetic problems (hip dysplasia for example) due to their inbreeding and selective breeding. But cockers don't kill people very often.

And in any case a pit bull is a terrier. The AKC calls it the American Pit Bull Terrier. The difference between this one and other ones is that the pit bull DOES KILL. And it kills at a rate disproportionate to its population. There are other breeds that are capable of killing, and do on occasion, but at a rate that is more proportionate to their population.

If we could begin selectively breeding pits for docility rather than "toughness" then eventually the genetic problems might fade. Unfortunately, no one can control the breeding practices of the rednecks who breed these things in their back yards.

Perhaps an idea might be to only allow people to own pits if they were purchased from breeders who selectively breed pits for docility?? I dunno. I hate the idea of a pit-bull-o-caust as much as any other animal lover.

[Waifer2112]

Lots of dogs were bred for hunting/killing. But that misses the rest of my point.

The point is that people have selectively bred pits for viciousness in large numbers for a long time. As a result, pits tend to have some genetic propensity for viciousness. Unfortunately, they also have the strength and jaw pressure to kill. That is a volatile combo.

A great example of what, I think, you're getting at is the cocker spaniel. Cockers have a general problem with their temperament because they were bred for years for their cuteness and not for good temper. Other breeds have other genetic problems (hip dysplasia for example) due to their inbreeding and selective breeding. But cockers don't kill people very often.

And in any case a pit bull is a terrier. The AKC calls it the American Pit Bull Terrier. The difference between this one and other ones is that the pit bull DOES KILL. And it kills at a rate disproportionate to its population. There are other breeds that are capable of killing, and do on occasion, but at a rate that is more proportionate to their population.

If we could begin selectively breeding pits for docility rather than "toughness" then eventually the genetic problems might fade. Unfortunately, no one can control the breeding practices of the rednecks who breed these things in their back yards.

Perhaps an idea might be to only allow people to own pits if they were purchased from breeders who selectively breed pits for docility?? I dunno. I hate the idea of a pit-bull-o-caust as much as any other animal lover.

And let's not pussy-foot around here. The "ban" means kill. When people turn their pets in, they are killed, not banned. And I would place a pretty penny on the fact that the redneck backyard breeders that are continuing the problem, aren't the ones turning them in. Just people like me who love their pets like one of their family. Probably like every one of you.

[Snotty]

If you are for banning pits for the reasons you just stated you are for banning most terriers as well. They were bred for hunting killing also. And they could easily kill some small kids. If the Pit who was breed to fight each other and be docile to humans should be banned then so should many other breeds. The same arguments of why work on them as well.

It goes back to the same thing, you are blaming the symptom not the cause. You sound just like the gun control advocates.

Pretty sure a gun would not have attacked this kid hopping over his own fence. Regardless of the caliber, it most likely would have just laid there. Unless I am missing something.

Bad argument Eryl... Lots of dogs bite, lots of dogs kill. Most dogs are bred for thier fighting ability and most dogs are not recognized by the less then upstanding citizen as being a bad a$$ dog that makes them look cool.

You guys are trying to say that PB or PB type of dog is just a warm friendly dog that would not do anything that any other dog would do. I say you are wrong, and the current stats available , back my position more then yours.

While I can not say that Waifer's dog would or would not attack, the American PB Type of breed as whole has a disposition to attack and kill. Look at the numbers guys. And no, it's not like wheelers, since we have a large population that does wheel and very small number that by comparison does not follow the rules.

With this breed/type of dog, we have a small population, with an large number (20%ish) that maims and kills. That is 20% of all maiming or fatal deaths attributed to one breed. The other 80% is attributed to All Other Dog Breeds/Types. Not just one. If you started to break it out by breed/type specific, that number would look even worse.

[Snotty]

And let's not pussy-foot around here. The "ban" means kill. When people turn their pets in, they are killed, not banned. And I would place a pretty penny on the fact that the redneck backyard breeders that are continuing the problem, aren't the ones turning them in. Just people like me who love their pets like one of their family. Probably like every one of you.

I agree with you here Waifer and feel that killing them is extreme. Denver is the only so far that says you have to get rid of the dog. Aurora says no new ones, and you have to carry insurance and register the dog to keep it. And I am fine with that. It just means that when your dog does pass, you won't be able to get another PB/type of dog.

[whited]

Eryl, I believe your gun-control comparison to be apt and perceptive. Regardless of what someone ^ said, it is *exactly* the same thing.

:thumbsup:

[Waifer2112]

I agree with you here Waifer and feel that killing them is extreme. Denver is the only so far that says you have to get rid of the dog. Aurora says no new ones, and you have to carry insurance and register the dog to keep it. And I am fine with that. It just means that when your dog does pass, you won't be able to get another PB/type of dog.

The problem being, most insurance companies won't insure you if there is a ban in your city. Catch 22. A writer for the Rcky. Mnt. News tried to get some, and was turned down by all the major companies.

[Snotty]

Eryl, I believe your gun-control comparison to be apt and perceptive. Regardless of what someone ^ said, it is *exactly* the same thing.

:thumbsup:

Tell me again, how a gun just attacks someone of it's own free will? Cause I seemed to miss that part in school where an inanimate object just attacks people.

Until a gun can maim or kill a person of it's own free will, or training, or upbringing, or conditions at home, or abuse, you guys may want to step away from the crack pipe and quit being stupid.

[Snotty]

The problem being, most insurance companies won't insure you if there is a ban in your city. Catch 22. A writer for the Rcky. Mnt. News tried to get some, and was turned down by all the major companies.

I could see that for a total ban, but even on a grandfathered situation? I thought they weren't allowed to do that. SInce technically, it is legal to own the animal if you had it pre-ban. Interesting.

[satan]

Tell me again, how a gun just attacks someone of it's own free will? Cause I seemed to miss that part in school where an inanimate object just attacks people.

Until a gun can maim or kill a person of it's own free will, or training, or upbringing, or conditions at home, or abuse, you guys may want to step away from the crack pipe and quit being stupid.


Now now Snotty, It's in the breeding of the gun...

... I mean like the assault rifle, now that's been bred to shoot and kill people, not like your "laptop" .22 cal 'Smithie'...
:wtf:

While I have seen guns kill and maim people, they really didn't do it by themselves, but I do have this desk with a loose piece of corner-trim that will just "jump-out" and indiscriminately snag your leg as you walk past, I've tried behavioral schools, but am afraid that this desk is beyond all hope. I'll be seeking a city-wide ban on all 6-drawer office furniture as a result (clearly, no insurance carriers would be willing to underwrite that liability).

(Snottster, if you're goin' to Friday's M&G, I owe you a beer...)

[Eryl Flynn]

Pretty sure a gun would not have attacked this kid hopping over his own fence. Regardless of the caliber, it most likely would have just laid there. Unless I am missing something.

Bad argument Eryl... Lots of dogs bite, lots of dogs kill. Most dogs are bred for thier fighting ability and most dogs are not recognized by the less then upstanding citizen as being a bad a$$ dog that makes them look cool.

You guys are trying to say that PB or PB type of dog is just a warm friendly dog that would not do anything that any other dog would do. I say you are wrong, and the current stats available , back my position more then yours.

While I can not say that Waifer's dog would or would not attack, the American PB Type of breed as whole has a disposition to attack and kill. Look at the numbers guys. And no, it's not like wheelers, since we have a large population that does wheel and very small number that by comparison does not follow the rules.

With this breed/type of dog, we have a small population, with an large number (20%ish) that maims and kills. That is 20% of all maiming or fatal deaths attributed to one breed. The other 80% is attributed to All Other Dog Breeds/Types. Not just one. If you started to break it out by breed/type specific, that number would look even worse.

So .001% or less of Pit Bulls attacking people is the numbers showing they are all bad? I would bet that more people who off road go off trail as a percentage than the percentage of Pit Bulls that attack people. To be fair I do not know what percentage of Pits have attacked some one, but the number has got to be tiny considering how many are out there.

My gun analogy is dead on. You are using the same argument that gun control advocates use. That because the dog if raised and bred poorly can kill they should be banned, just like because a gun can be used to kill it should be banned. Same exact situation, and aren't you Snotty one of the people against banning guns? If so maybe you should either change your stance on one of these issues or come up with a different argument for the Pit Bulls.

Oh and your stat of 20% of all attacks are Pit Bulls is not true. From what I have seen many attacks are attributed to a Pit Bull when the dog was not a Pit. Did you take that picture quiz, could you pick the Pit Bull out of the group? I know I could't, so how do you expect those in charge who don't care what breed it was and just need to finish the paper work to tell the difference?

[Snotty]

That is why I put in PB/Type. Most people, including myself could not pick out a PB pure breed. Yes, I took the test.

Also, I have several dogs that are super friendly towards most people, and then freak out on one. Some people tell me that the dog just knos bad people. So i can therefore assume based on that statement alone, that a dog has some level of free will and thinking. It's not like someone is holding the dog and says "Kill". They just do it.

So until a gun, can walk it's self up to someone, know they are bad, or let alone have a thought, period, you cannot compare the two. Now the idiot on the other side of the gun, sure. But I have stared at my SKS for hours and it has yet to move, load it's self, or fire at any thing, let alone shoot kid climbing my fence saying "nice gun" (I have not named it yet) and shooting his arm off, or in Waifer's example, bite a woman's face off either.

And yes, I am one of those that is anti-gun control since as of yet, I have not seen a gun just up and kill someone. When my gun does that, off the furnace it goes, hopefully it won't be turned into some mad crazy lawn mower.

Now... If you want to suggest that, if you outlaw Pitbulls (Guns), then only outlaws will have Pit Bulls (Guns). I would agree with you. However, it is a lot easier to hide a gun, then it is a dog. Not impossible, but still harder.

And the numbers that I have used, are numbers that DaJudge provided and numbers I found on my own.

For the year 2004, 3% of all dogs registered were pitbulls (breed/type)

For the year 2004, 20% of all Maiming/fatal dog attacks were attributed to pitbulls (breed/type)

So less then 3% of all registered dogs, 20% of recorded attacks (maim/fatal) can be attirbuted to a pitbull type of dog. Which is based on the head size and body shape of a type Terrier. I don't about Eryl, but that seems like a pretty damn high number of serious attacks that can attributed to one type of dog.

[Gags]

We shouldn't approach dog mentality in terms that we would associate with people. They're different.

Human education is key. A breeding program is necessary. Without those two things, there will continue to be deaths from Pit attacks. Unless, of course, you kill them all(that would be wrong).

[Eryl Flynn]

So one person or group abuses a privelage to own X, we should ban X is that correct?

X can be any thing, from a gun to a dog.

This is your argument. You argue that because a small fraction of owners are irresponsible, do not breed responsibily and raise their dogs poorly ignoring things that are required like socialization, that we blame all of them. Just like because a few idiots kill people with guns, we should ban all guns because of those few.

Just because the dog has some measure of free will, does not change or diminish the analogy. The dog per the law is an object not a being recognised for it's own free will. So the analogy from the legal point of view is 100%. Both are objects handled irresponsibly.

[Snotty]

So one person or group abuses a privelage to own X, we should ban X is that correct?

X can be any thing, from a gun to a dog.

This is your argument. You argue that because a small fraction of owners are irresponsible, do not breed responsibily and raise their dogs poorly ignoring things that are required like socialization, that we blame all of them. Just like because a few idiots kill people with guns, we should ban all guns because of those few.

Just because the dog has some measure of free will, does not change or diminish the analogy. The dog per the law is an object not a being recognised for it's own free will. So the analogy from the legal point of view is 100%. Both are objects handled irresponsibly.

I am going to use this against you here for a second.

So one person or group abuses a privelage to own an automatic assualt weapon (not just any gun), we should ban Automatic assualt weapons is that correct?

In a word, yes. Dogs have not been banned. One type of Dog has been. I can still own a handgun in Denver, but I can't own a Automatic Assualt weapon.

A person can't own a Pitbull (Breed/Type) of dog in Denver, but can own a Rottweiler.

I disagree with killing the animals unless they are crazy. then take it out. I think a relocation plan of some type would be great. And until a license is required to own any animal and we make it a privledge to own an animal, any crazy fawker can own a crazy animal.

[Eryl Flynn]

And I disagree with banning any gun so that means nothing to me. Just because they make a law, doesn't make it right or smart. Remember when the assault weapon ban dropped? No change what so ever in gun crimes.

Add in as I said before most of your argument rests on data that has been proven flawed and can't be trusted. Your 20% figure was from data that was never verified or proven. How many of those 20% were really Pit Bulls or a breed that looks similiar? Would you feel differently if the numbers showed that say Lab's, or maybe Chows were more likely to seriously hurt some one? Would you be about banning them, or maybe Rotteweilers.

[Snotty]

If people are breeding them to fiight, yes, ban the dog. For two reasons.

To hopefully curb the dumbasses that do it and to save the dogs. If you guys want this dog/breed to survive, this is going to be the only way. Until we stop hearing about Pitbull (Breed/type, really doesn't matter) maiming and killing people, this dog is going to be the top target on the hit list. And if this dog is so nice, warm, cuddly and friendly, then tell me why it is the only dog to be banned in rntire countries. Not just a city, county, state, but country. Because this dog is dangerous. You can't even hurt it to get to stop attacking. You have to kill it. That in and of its self should speak volumes about what can and does happen with this dog.

And you want to call semantics and say "It's not a pure breed pitbull that is causing the problem", I have news for you. The dog Breed and type are both designed for the same thing.

Look at the mechanics of the dog's body, it was breed for one thing only.

You guys would sacrifce 100's of these little boys to save this breed. You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. If you want to save this dog breed, then ban/remove it from areas it causes the most problems. High density populated areas. Because the next step may be State and the Federal bans.

This dog breed/type gets national attention.

And I won't ever own a Chow either. They are known to maim as well. Fortunanly for them, they are considerd "cute" and the thugs/idiots that want a tough looking dog stay away from them.

[Eryl Flynn]

Facts:


1 The facts used to point at the dog being a problem are not accurate, and any where from 0-99% off.

2 The breed was bred to be docile to humans.

And sadly that is all the facts we have. All else is supposition and emotional knee jerk reactions.

The true numbers are more likely to find that Pit Bulls bite about the same amount as any other large breed.

You sound just like a Democrat there Snotty. Avoiding personal responsibility to blame some thing else. This attack in Aurora that started this thread is a perfect example. A bunch of morons treating a dog like crap and having it bite some one because of their stupidity. This would not have happened if they wouldn't have abused the dog. But go ahead blame the creature that lives by a different set of rules by nature that wasn't taught the rules we live by. People have a choice, they can read about the laws, hear about them from others and even after a few crimes realize what they are doing is wrong and chose. Dogs can't take that chance, they must have it forced on them.

If this is truelly how you feel I pity any animal you get Snotty, you can't understand animals at all to feel the way you do. I am sorry for you.

The owners must take responsibility and it is foolish and negligent to place the blame elsewhere. Take away the idiot owners and you won't have this trouble. Near 100% of all bites could have been avoided by the owners properly caring for their dog. Poor dogs, paying with their lives for the stupidity of humans.

[Lil_Mule]

Eryl I think your facts are a little skewed... have you not been paying attention to the last 6 months?

[Snotty]

:blah: :blah: :blah:

Do you even read the things that I write Eryl? My numbers are skewed? My numbers came from Govenment websites.

And no, I don't sound like a democrat, I sound like a person that values human life over that of an animal. And yes, I would run the dog over in the middle of the road to save myself or people in my car.

You sound like you are making a run to the next PETA pres. It's a dog, a dog that has a whole of bad press, that it has earned. if you want to start talking about "it was abused", then you need to start looking at all the dogs that are abused, and don't attack.

And the Pitbull was never, ever breed to be docile to humans. It has over 100 years recent breeding to fight and kill, anything.


Fatal Dog Attacks


ATLANTA & WASHINGTON--Dog bite injuries can lead to serious infections (such as tetanus and rabies), disability, deformity, and occasionally death. Most of these injuries are preventable.
The National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Humane Society of the United States recently updated data on fatal dog bites for the period 1989 to 1994.
In the 6-year study published in the medical journal PEDIATRICS (Vol.97 No. 6, 891-5), Jeffrey J. Sacks, M.D. and associates reported the finding of 109 bite-related fatalities. They found that 57% of the deaths were in children under 10 years of age. 22% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog OFF the owner's property. 18% of the deaths involved a restrained dog ON the owner's property, and 59% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog ON the owner's property.
The researchers also found that 10% of the dog bite attacks involved sleeping infants.

The most commonly reported dog breeds involved were pit bulls (24 deaths), followed by rottweilers (16 deaths), and German shepherds (10 deaths). The authors point out that many breeds, however, are involved in the problem.
The death rate from dog bite-related fatalities (18 deaths per year) in the 6-year study period remained relatively constant compared with the prior 10 years. The authors emphasized that "most of the factors contributing to dog bites are related to the level of responsibility exercised by dog owners." They recommend public education about dogs and dog ownership. In this regard, the authors suggest the following guidelines for parents and children:


I picked this one out of many since it was wholly unbiased. Also, the National Canine Research Foundation begrudgingly admits that PitBulls are becoming more and


Breed of dog -
The breed of dog is another contributory factor in fatal dog attacks. While breed may be a factor in attacks, it is not the cause for an attack. While Pit Bulls and Rottweilers are responsible for a significant amount of fatal attacks in recent years, one cannot conclude that an attack occurred simply as a result of the breed of dog; no more than we can conclude that a fatal attack occurred simply because the dog was an intact male, or chained, or a because a child was left unsupervised with a dog(s).

I don't think that these dogs attack anymore than any other dog, but their build and breed mentallity changes them from a dog that bites, to a dog that kills.

[whited]

Tell me again, how a gun just attacks someone of it's own free will? Cause I seemed to miss that part in school where an inanimate object just attacks people.

Until a gun can maim or kill a person of it's own free will, or training, or upbringing, or conditions at home, or abuse, you guys may want to step away from the crack pipe and quit being stupid.

:shrug: :thumbsdown:

[Waifer2112]

Eryl I think your facts are a little skewed... have you not been paying attention to the last 6 months?

I have some facts:

The Center for Disease Control have studied this issue. The CDC finds no evidence that breed-specific bans have been effective, and no scientific evidence to support the assumption that any one breed of dog is more likely to kill. Furthermore, the study spells out the factors that contribute to dog attacks, and almost all of them were traceable to human behavior. INcluded were: heredity (breeding is controlled by humans); early experience, socialization, and training; health (like in the instance of the little boy);reproductive status; and quality of ownership and supervision.

Sorry Snotty, but just like guns, most all bad situations are attributable to human behavior. It's the same arguement.

However, we will continue to see any and all bad actions from PB's in the media, while hearing vertually nothing about other breeds. What I find funny, is how some of the same people who yell from their soapbox that we shouldn't listen to the "liberal media" use the same "liberal media" as examples. WTF? Which way do you want it?

[Snotty]

Using the NCRF numbers for 2001:

NCRF = National Canine Research Foundation

Note: NCRF only specifies pure breed Pit Bulls.


Jan. 2001 (1) Bullmastiff MI Adult female/brother's dogs
Jan. 2001 (1) German Shep X GA Infant death
Jan. 2001 (2) Presa Canario CA Neighbor's dogs
Mar. 2001 (?) Strays/Unknown MO Boy killed in park
Mar. 2001 (1) Rott X KY Grandmother's dog
Mar. 2001 (1) Pit Bull CA Boy wandered to chained dog
Apr. 2001 (1) Chow Chow LA Owner trying to leash dog
Apr. 2001 (1) Wolf dog IL Boy wandered to chained dog
Apr. 2001 (1) Rottweiler IL Infant death
Jun. 2001 (1) Pit Bull UT Chained, breeding guard dog
Jun. 2001 (1) Rottweiler MA Boy released dog f/kennel
Jun. 2001 (1) Pit bull HI Chained dog
Jul. 2001 (1) Pit bull GA Chained dog
Jul. 2001 (2) Pit bulls AZ Trespasser / Guard dogs at business
Jul. 2001 (2) Bulldogs IL Dogs attacked elderly owner
Aug. 2001 (?) Mixed breeds SC Neighbor's loose dogs
Aug. 2001 (1) Rottweiler IL Chained dog broke loose
Sept.2001 (1) Rottweiler KS Infant at grandmother's
Oct. 2001 (3) Pit bulls AR Neighbor's loose dogs
Oct. 2001 (1) Rottweiler WY Chained, emaciated dog
Nov. 2001 (2) GSD & mixed OH Infant death
Nov. 2001 (1) Siberian husky CA Infant death
Dec. 2001 (2) Rottweilers AL Child wandered to dogs


(23) Total fatal dog attacks. (6 or 26%) Are attributed to Pit Bulls.


(28) total dogs counted. (9 or 32%) Are Pit Bulls.


Using the NCRF numbers for 2002:

Note: NCRF only specifies pure breed Pit Bulls.

Jan. 2002 (1) Wolf dog NM Breaking up dog fight
Feb. 2002 (2) Rott/Pug Xs CA Escaped from yard
Feb. 2002 (6) Rottweilers WI Unsupervised child
Apr. 2002 (?) Pack of strays GA Unsupervised child
Apr. 2002 (1) Rottweiler CA Grandmother's dog
Apr. 2002 (1) Am Staff DE Chained dog
Jun. 2002 (1) German Shep NE Police dog in training
Jun. 2002 (1) Wolf dog KY Chained dog
Jul. 2002 (4) Pit bulls TX Victim had possible seizure
Aug. 2002 (1) Pit bull IA Chained dog
Oct. 2002 (2) Mixed breeds GA Chained dogs
Oct. 2002 (1) Doberman WI Provocation
Nov. 2002 (1) Mixed breed MO Chained dog
Dec. 2002 (1) Malamute X CA Infant death
Dec. 2002 (1) German Shep NC Chained, starving dog

(15) Total fatal dog attacks. (2 or 13%) Are attributed to Pit Bulls.


(24) total dogs counted. (5 or 20%) Are Pit Bulls.

What I find really odd, is that NCRF actually stopped posting the type and number of dogs in fatal attacks, but went to only posting the number of attacks. Maybe they started to realize that their own data was hurting the Pit Bull’s more then helping? And these numbers do not reflect attacks where the victim was simply maimed.

[Snotty]

However, we will continue to see any and all bad actions from PB's in the media, while hearing vertually nothing about other breeds. What I find funny, is how some of the same people who yell from their soapbox that we shouldn't listen to the "liberal media" use the same "liberal media" as examples. WTF? Which way do you want it?

The problem is, you are guys are coming from an emotional perspective. I look for and as many facts as I can first.

This is not a liberal argument, and that fact that you guys are bouncing around and starting to use the name calling tactic, is quickly showing that you don't quite grasp what it is you are defending. The numbers that I have provided you, are from the National Canine Research Foundation which is against banning the breed anywhere. Yet their own numbers and statement show that this breed is dangerous.

So if I filp the argument on here for a second. If we can agree that the Pit Bulls is responsible for a significant amount of fatal attacks, and we use your suggestion that it is due to bad owners, then we can assume that only bad people own these dogs, or a significantly larger portion of bad owners, own Pit Bulls.

In that case, I am even more for the ban. Why? Because a gun owned by a bad owner does not go and shot people. But a dog owned by a bad owner, can get out and kill people. And they do...

[comtech]

][/QUOTE]And since we can't pick and choose who can own what type of animal,[QUOTE]

This is where it should start. Classify domestic dogs as we do exotic animals, not just for pit bulls or just for people. When I was going to OSU in the 80's heart worm was out of control in dogs down there. The main reason it got so bad- It was cool to have a bird dog back then so every redneck had one locked in a 4'x4' pen in the yard, unfortunately they never hunted hence never left that pen and were essentially being wiped out across the state by mosquito's. Remember when a heart worm shot wasn't even recommended in CO! Not so any more, people are idiots, a person can be smart but people in general are stupid.

On the whole comparing the gun to the animate object, please you people that are using this argument are the ones that sound like Democrats. Oh, we have a dangerous (insert whatever here) with a brain and free will, if we are going to regulate this we better regulate every INANIMATE object that could be dangerous.

I don't like pit's, however I don't think killing the entire breed is the answer. I really think we have far to much government regulation now, but as long as people are stupid there are only 2 options (1)banning(killing) or (2)very tough severely enforced regulation.
I cant help but realize, even if we enact regulations they will be enforced in the same, skewed, slack jawed way gun regulations are now.

Example, Waifers dog gets loose and runs around the neighborhood, no one is hurt and the dog shows no aggressive behavior. Waifer is slapped with a $5000. fine, sued by 4 people in his neighborhood, and generally branded as a pit bull toting maniac by the news.

At the same time Joe Dirt's 3 pit's chained up in his back yard have had enough, after years of neglect and mistreatment they attack and kill Joe Dirt Jr or worse they escape and go on a rampage through a neighborhood filled with small kids. Joe Dirt escapes punishment because he didn't realize that underfed, traumatized dogs could bite people, Mr. Dirt explains to the media that the animals didn't come with a manufactures warning, or care and usage manual. As a matter of fact Mr. Dirt is now going to sue the city of Denver because they didn't require the breeder to disclose any and every action a dog might ever take, never mind that MR. Dirt had the dog when he moved here from BFE. The ACLU gets involved and Denver settles out of court!

Personal Responsibility, this is the single biggest factor destroying our society today!

[Snotty]

According to NCRF, between the years of 1994-1999 there were a total 100 fatal dog attacks. Of those, 16 or 16% were attributed to Pit Bulls. There were a total of 165 dogs involved, of those, 35 or 21% were listed as Pit Bulls.

[Lil_Mule]

I think it's important to note that you will never change anyone's mind and that goes for both sides of the issue. In addition, an emotional response does not do the situation any good either, so we must go on facts.

I also agree that throwing in the gun debate is pointless... it's not the same thing, a gun does not have free will, so save that for a gun post. Although I did find the post on breeding guns aka assault weapons hilarious.

Admit it or not I think we can all agree on the point that pit bulls have been bred for fighting.

I think we can also agree that just because you have been bred for fighting, that doesn't mean you will "go off".

We can also agree by using stats or just media that pit bulls are the most common breed of dog for damaging if not fatal attacks. Now let's not go over to the conspiracy against pit bulls theory.

We can also agree that you don't see Poodles or Shitzu's guarding yards or working as K9 units. You do, however, see pits, rotts, shepard's and dobermans. BTW I do have two dobermans so I can empathize with the pit owners.

So if we agree to all of these things we can certainly agree to the fact that although these dogs may never go off... there is a tendancy and a proven behaviour pattern that they will. Statistically it's more likely.

Would this be an issue if it was a Shitzu? Probably not. I think the issue isn't just the dog, it's the AMOUNT of damage that occurs. Poodles are freaking vicious but they don't do any damage... hence, no one cares.

The same goes for "wild" animals as pets. There is a more likely chance that these animals will attack and that the damage will be very severe... hence the laws surrounding them.

As an FYI - My dogs have never attacked anyone but because I understand the nature of the breed they are under constant supervision. I live on 5 acres and even then when I'm not around they have access to the house and a 50 x 60 corral with a fence that they can't jump. I also carry a separate policy in case anything was to ever happen.

Now should I have to do all this? I mean, my dogs are friendly..... probably not... but statistically they are an aggressive breed and I for one won't ignore the statistics.

[Snotty]

CDC finds that Pit Bulls are responsible for 1/3 of all fatal dog attacks between the years of 1979-1998 (http://www.edgarsnyder.com/news/dogbite/sf-pit-bull-ban.html)

[Snotty]

The CDC says pit bulls and Rottweilers kill more humans than any other breed. In the United States, pit bulls make up 3% of the overall dog population but are responsible for more than 50% of serious attacks. Rottweilers have become the nation's deadliest dog breed, surpassing pit bulls, according to a 2000 study by the American Veterinary Medical Assn. (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/suncommentary/la-op-baddogs11dec11,1,6866709.story?coll=la-headlines-suncomment)

[Snotty]

Actual Report from CDC, I am guesing that these numbers don't lie??? (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf)

Or is it more liberal media biased that HATES this dog? I think not...

[Snotty]

And this from a "Balanced" Article.


The American Kennel Club, which registers about 1 million dogs a year, says it has the best data available to rate the popularity of America's 74 million dogs. But it doesn't register mixes or undocumented dogs, which account for half of dogs, by AKC's own estimate.

And it doesn't consider pit bulls to be an official breed at all. So no one knows precisely how many pit bulls there are nationwide -- let alone which breed accounts for the highest number of attacks per dog. "Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite," warns a report from the American Veterinary Medical Association. "Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular, large breeds are a problem."

Meanwhile, some insurance agencies have compiled their own lists of vicious breeds, based on claims. Allstate Insurance, for instance, won't offer homeowners insurance to Californians who own any of eight types of dogs: pit bulls (American Staffordshire terriers), akitas, boxers, chow chows, Dobermans, rottweilers, Presa Canarios and wolf hybrids, plus any mixes that include the breeds.

"They are the dogs that generate the most lawsuits," said spokesman Rich Halberg. Nationwide Insurance compiled a similar list, though it doesn't include akitas or boxers.

Company spokesman Joe Case, in Columbus, Ohio, said the carrier consulted the CDC's fatality study, but thought it was critical to consider the insurer's own experience handling reports of other serious dog bites.

[Gags]

Don't let Snotty fool you. He has a pit.

[Snotty]

Don't let Snotty fool you. He has a pit.

bwaahaahaa... fawk you Pete! :flipoff2:

[Gags]

bwaahaahaa... fawk you Pete! :flipoff2:

That would be so funny to me.

[Gags]

Snotty named his Pit, Tookie.

[Snotty]

Wow, got pretty quiet in here? We on for Friday?

[Gags]

Wow, got pretty quiet in here? We on for Friday?

PM. Might be hitting the slopes.

[Waifer2112]

NIce facts, Snotty. But that changes the arguement not one iota. It's the owners!!!!! The exact same thing as guns. No, a gun cannot act on it's own. A gun only acts on what it's owner does. While not 100% of the time, it's the same thing with dogs. Neglectful owners tend not to get poodles. They didn't want a companion anyway. They wanted a status symbol. That is why the perpetuation of all pit bulls are bad in the media are just making more asshats want pits. Then, when they are neglected, they act out. Amazingly simple, isn't it?

As far as being emotional, I'm sorry if people calling for the death of my family members makes me emotional. I'm not a robot. Did you get emotional over the death of a family member (or thoughts of) in your family, or did you keep a nice level head?:rolleyes:

I don't know why you quoted me as name slinging, as I did none.

[Gags]

NIce facts, Snotty. But that changes the arguement not one iota. It's the owners!!!!! The exact same thing as guns. No, a gun cannot act on it's own. A gun only acts on what it's owner does. While not 100% of the time, it's the same thing with dogs. Neglectful owners tend not to get poodles. They didn't want a companion anyway. They wanted a status symbol. That is why the perpetuation of all pit bulls are bad in the media are just making more asshats want pits. Then, when they are neglected, they act out. Amazingly simple, isn't it?

As far as being emotional, I'm sorry if people calling for the death of my family members makes me emotional. I'm not a robot. Did you get emotional over the death of a family member (or thoughts of) in your family, or did you keep a nice level head?:rolleyes:

I don't know why you quoted me as name slinging, as I did none.


Are your dogs food aggressive?

Are they dog aggressive?

Are they tolerant of children?

Have they ever had a history of being mentally unsound?

Can you handle your dogs ears and feet?

How are they with strangers?

Are they ultra protective?

Are they territorial?

[Eryl Flynn]

Got quiet since I was not around, have to work and sleep some time Snotty.

I don't trust the CDC figures since I doubt they do an autopsy on the dog to be sure it was a Pitbull. The problem with the facts are they come from people who lump a large group of dogs into the group they call Pit Bulls.

At the same time, breed specific banning ignores the true problem, the owner and does nothing to help with the symptoms you are upset about. People being hurt or killed by dogs.

As was quoted from your own sources, they have all that data you quoted and came to the conclusion you are wrong in wanting to ban Pit Bulls. Maybe you should trust your own sources a bit better Snotty, they disagree with you.

[SPY]

Stupid humans...It all comes down to how the dog was raised. You can train any animal to be a pet. I know a guy in Montana who has trained more than one Grizzle Bears as pets( you can see pics on our website www.bearproofsystems.com ). Is it the ghetto mantallity that pits are cool why they have a bad rep.? I'd say the majority of pit bull owners are not the most educated people out there. I'm not saying if you own one you're ghetto but more like the percentage of "ghetto/white trash" folks that own pit bulls is alot higher then the percentage of white coller pit owners. If an animal attacks it is most likely due to some sort of neglagence of the owner. Just look at Sigfred and Roy, if it was not for a homofobic tiger nothing would have ever happened because they took the proper steps to training animals. Even if thier idea of "training an animal" is alot different than most of ours!!!

[Gags]

Stupid humans...It all comes down to how the dog was raised. You can train any animal to be a pet. I know a guy in Montana who has trained more than one Grizzle Bears as pets( you can see pics on our website www.bearproofsystems.com ). Is it the ghetto mantallity that pits are cool why they have a bad rep.? I'd say the majority of pit bull owners are not the most educated people out there. I'm not saying if you own one you're ghetto but more like the percentage of "ghetto/white trash" folks that own pit bulls is alot higher then the percentage of white coller pit owners. If an animal attacks it is most likely due to some sort of neglagence of the owner. Just look at Sigfred and Roy, if it was not for a homofobic tiger nothing would have ever happened because they took the proper steps to training animals. Even if thier idea of "training an animal" is alot different than most of ours!!!

Well, there are two ingredients to dog tempermant basically. First is breeding/genetics and second is environment.

Sigfreid and Roy...Many people think he was attacked which is just not true.

That guy who trains the grizzly bears is amazing. One BMF.

[Lil_Mule]

It's the owners!!!!! The exact same thing as guns. No, a gun cannot act on it's own. A gun only acts on what it's owner does. While not 100% of the time, it's the same thing with dogs.

Dude, let me get this straight... you're comparing an inatimate object with a living creature? You're telling us that a dog does NOTHING unless the owner does?

I hate to tell you this but both of my dogs have minds and personalities of their own and anyone that has met them will agree that they are one of the best trained dogs around... and I don't have the ego to say that I can control them 100% of the time.

It's a living creature with a mind of it's own and it simply will act on it's on whether or not you want to believe it or not. How anyone can compare the two is irrational.

I understand the family member comment, I really do but some logic has to be applied. S and R are perfect examples... the tigers had THE BEST environment, owners, food, etc... and one... went off. Simple logic... an aggressive animal may look, act, and appear tame... but one day, he could go off.

This frog and this scorpion need to cross a stream. The scorpion says to the frog, can you please take me across the stream? The frog says, not a chance, you'll sting me. The scorpion says I promise I won't sting you because we'll both die. The frog thinks about it and says ok jump on my back. Halfway across the stream the scorpion stings the frog. The frog looks up and says, why did you do that, now we're both going to die... The scorpion says, I don't know, it's just my nature.

[Waifer2112]

Are your dogs food aggressive?

Are they dog aggressive?

Are they tolerant of children?

Have they ever had a history of being mentally unsound?

Can you handle your dogs ears and feet?

How are they with strangers?

Are they ultra protective?

Are they territorial?

In order:
NO aggression whatsoever with food. I have held cooked steak between them, with a friends dog there, and while my friends Husky snapped at it, my dogs pulled away and waited. I have tried this between the 2 many times. My female is 4 years older than the male, but doesn't dominate too much at all.

The only instances of aggression around other dogs have been from the other dogs. My female has been attacked twice, and turned tail running and "screaming" for her life. The male was charged by a dog with a muzzle. He turned away and wouldn't go near that dog again. BTW, he outweighs the other dog by a good 20 lbs.

My brother's kids have put my female through it all. She not only tolerates it, but enjoys whatever attention they give. The male has never growled, showed his teeth, or given any other sign of aggression. However, he doesn't enjoy being ridden like a horse, so he just stays away from them. I've never felt like I should keep any kind of barrier between them, though.

My female is rock solid mentally. The male was used as a "bait" dog, so if you swing your hand at him suddenly, or make a loud sound, he will probably run away. A bait dog, for those who don't know, is a docile dog that is thrown in a "pit" with a trained (or training) fighter so the fighter won't get injured. He has had half his lip torn off, a big chunk of both ears, and more scars than a person could count. What amazes me about dogs, is that he is one of the most cuddly dogs I know even after the treatment he got from humans. I can only imagine what the "people" did to him, let alone the dogs that tore into him. But I have cornered him, while he was scared to death, and made threatening motions at him, and he just sat there waiting to get hit. God, how I hate some people. How could someone do that to a dog like this?

I can feel any part of their bodies I want. Same with the vet. I took my female to the vet the other day for a growth on her eye, and as the vet advanced, I told him that she was fine with people touching her. He said, and I quote, "All the pit bulls I've ever encountered are".

The only problem I have with strangers is if the new person isn't ready for how pits show their love. Really, it's the same as any other breed, but since they are so strong, they could knock you off balance if you're not careful. Then you'd be on the ground helpless to their tounges and tails.

Not only are they not ultra-protective, but I'm pretty sure you could beat the crap out of me in my own house, and they would stand there watching.

As far as territorial, my female wouldn't care who entered my back yard when I was gone or at home. She would just ask for some lovin'. The male will bark at someone until they try to open the gate. Then he just wags his tail.

[Waifer2112]

Dude, let me get this straight... you're comparing an inatimate object with a living creature? You're telling us that a dog does NOTHING unless the owner does?

I hate to tell you this but both of my dogs have minds and personalities of their own and anyone that has met them will agree that they are one of the best trained dogs around... and I don't have the ego to say that I can control them 100% of the time.

It's a living creature with a mind of it's own and it simply will act on it's on whether or not you want to believe it or not. How anyone can compare the two is irrational.

I understand the family member comment, I really do but some logic has to be applied. S and R are perfect examples... the tigers had THE BEST environment, owners, food, etc... and one... went off. Simple logic... an aggressive animal may look, act, and appear tame... but one day, he could go off.

This frog and this scorpion need to cross a stream. The scorpion says to the frog, can you please take me across the stream? The frog says, not a chance, you'll sting me. The scorpion says I promise I won't sting you because we'll both die. The frog thinks about it and says ok jump on my back. Halfway across the stream the scorpion stings the frog. The frog looks up and says, why did you do that, now we're both going to die... The scorpion says, I don't know, it's just my nature.

First off, if you've read this thread, you will see where I've stated I would never say my dogs won't bite. Ever!!!! Please read the thread before making comments. Also, comparing wild creatures to animals that have been domesticated over thousands of years is, to use your words, irrational. Do you think if you let your dogs free, they would be as succesful as wolves in finding food? Of course not. They haven't had to fend for themselves in their entire lives. And that would, most certainly, go back for many, many generations.

I'll quit with the gun comparisons. I was just trying to point out, while not exactly the same thing, it mirrors it very close. While no one has any numbers on well trained pits to those that have been physically or mentally abused, any thinking person could probably put the numbers close to 90-95% of pit attacks have been from neglected dogs. Please don't flame me too bad for a number I made up.

[Waifer2112]

Here's some (really bad) pics. of my pits. The male, Brutus, is the black one. The female, Jasmine, is golden. Jasmine actually looks a little mean in these pics., but she is just into her bone I had just given her. The male was named Elvis when I got him. That just wasn't going to fly. So I tried to come up with something that rhymed with it, thus Brutus.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2118019389

[Gags]

In order:
NO aggression whatsoever with food. I have held cooked steak between them, with a friends dog there, and while my friends Husky snapped at it, my dogs pulled away and waited. I have tried this between the 2 many times. My female is 4 years older than the male, but doesn't dominate too much at all.

The only instances of aggression around other dogs have been from the other dogs. My female has been attacked twice, and turned tail running and "screaming" for her life. The male was charged by a dog with a muzzle. He turned away and wouldn't go near that dog again. BTW, he outweighs the other dog by a good 20 lbs.

My brother's kids have put my female through it all. She not only tolerates it, but enjoys whatever attention they give. The male has never growled, showed his teeth, or given any other sign of aggression. However, he doesn't enjoy being ridden like a horse, so he just stays away from them. I've never felt like I should keep any kind of barrier between them, though.

My female is rock solid mentally. The male was used as a "bait" dog, so if you swing your hand at him suddenly, or make a loud sound, he will probably run away. A bait dog, for those who don't know, is a docile dog that is thrown in a "pit" with a trained (or training) fighter so the fighter won't get injured. He has had half his lip torn off, a big chunk of both ears, and more scars than a person could count. What amazes me about dogs, is that he is one of the most cuddly dogs I know even after the treatment he got from humans. I can only imagine what the "people" did to him, let alone the dogs that tore into him. But I have cornered him, while he was scared to death, and made threatening motions at him, and he just sat there waiting to get hit. God, how I hate some people. How could someone do that to a dog like this?

I can feel any part of their bodies I want. Same with the vet. I took my female to the vet the other day for a growth on her eye, and as the vet advanced, I told him that she was fine with people touching her. He said, and I quote, "All the pit bulls I've ever encountered are".

The only problem I have with strangers is if the new person isn't ready for how pits show their love. Really, it's the same as any other breed, but since they are so strong, they could knock you off balance if you're not careful. Then you'd be on the ground helpless to their tounges and tails.

Not only are they not ultra-protective, but I'm pretty sure you could beat the crap out of me in my own house, and they would stand there watching.

As far as territorial, my female wouldn't care who entered my back yard when I was gone or at home. She would just ask for some lovin'. The male will bark at someone until they try to open the gate. Then he just wags his tail.


Dude, you're totally safe. It would CHANGE EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOUT DOGS if one of your dogs hit somebody.

I F@CKING hate dog fighting. It's cruel without regard. At least human proffesional fighters make the choice. The dogs don't get one. I think it's cool that you basically saved the life of your male.

I'd almost financially support a breeding program just to prove that it could be done with great success.

My doberman exhibits more aggressive behavoir but again she would never bite.

[Gags]

Here's some (really bad) pics. of my pits. The male, Brutus, is the black one. The female, Jasmine, is golden. Jasmine actually looks a little mean in these pics., but she is just into her bone I had just given her. The male was named Elvis when I got him. That just wasn't going to fly. So I tried to come up with something that rhymed with it, thus Brutus.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2118019389

Looks like your boy has been pretty roughed up.

I'd like to consider myself on the side of conservation of all animals.

I'd be a hypocrite(in my mind) if I could support owning big cats but then want to ban potentially dangerous animals.

[Waifer2112]

Dude, you're totally safe. It would CHANGE EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOUT DOGS if one of your dogs hit somebody.

I F@CKING hate dog fighting. It's cruel without regard. At least human proffesional fighters make the choice. The dogs don't get one. I think it's cool that you basically saved the life of your male.

I'd almost financially support a breeding program just to prove that it could be done with great success.

My doberman exhibits more aggressive behavoir but again she would never bite.

I can't even bring myself to think of what Brutus must have gone through. I start running scennarios around in my mind fantasizing meeting these d!ckheads and having a shotgun on me. Oh, what fun I'd have!!

[Gags]

I can't even bring myself to think of what Brutus must have gone through. I start running scennarios around in my mind fantasizing meeting these d!ckheads and having a shotgun on me. Oh, what fun I'd have!!

I saw a documentary on dog fighting a couple years back. I was shocked and disturbed. Cruelty does not make you a man nor does it make you tough.

People who fight dogs should be FORCED to fight proffessional boxers...Bare knuckled.

[Snotty]

Okay, I am stepping out of this argument. You guys tell me that the numbers I quoted are bogus. Then you call me a liberal democrat. So I post valid numbers showing that this dog is dangerous from a Anti-Ban place, from the CDC and an un-biased medical investigation and you still say the numbers are fawked.

3% of all dogs owned are a PB type. Since AKC does not consider the dog to be a pure breed, we can't call it a Pure Breed Dog. Of the Fatal attacks shown, and not taking into consideration bites/maiming, the Pit Bull has moved into the 20% range. Fatal dog attacks have not substantially incereased over the last decade, but the amount that can be attributed to a type of dog, has swung drastically to the Pit Bull. But the numbers and facts aren't good enough for you. So to that, the second you invalidated factual data with your opinions, you invalidated your arguement. You can't refute them with any real data of your own, but you call foul on the data provided to you. I call BS on you.

There are three stories in the papers across the country where the family Pit Bull has killed one of the children, just since August. These were family dogs treated in a manner that most of would consider normal. In fact was a 14 year old boy left alone with his dog.

So while you whine about these dogs being "safe" regardless of the data collected and factual information posted, until owners have to register, insure, and have a substantial punishment system put in place to help protect little kids and 76 year old women, I will vote to ban the dog.

[Gags]

Okay, I am stepping out of this argument. You guys tell me that the numbers I quoted are bogus. Then you call me a liberal democrat. So I post valid numbers showing that this dog is dangerous from a Anti-Ban place, from the CDC and an un-biased medical investigation and you still say the numbers are fawked.

3% of all dogs owned are a PB type. Since AKC does not consider the dog to be a pure breed, we can't call it a Pure Breed Dog. Of the Fatal attacks shown, and not taking into consideration bites/maiming, the Pit Bull has moved into the 20% range. Fatal dog attacks have not substantially incereased over the last decade, but the amount that can be attributed to a type of dog, has swung drastically to the Pit Bull. But the numbers and facts aren't good enough for you. So to that, the second you invalidated factual data with your opinions, you invalidated your arguement. You can't refute them with any real data of your own, but you call foul on the data provided to you. I call BS on you.

There are three stories in the papers across the country where the family Pit Bull has killed one of the children, just since August. These were family dogs treated in a manner that most of would consider normal. In fact was a 14 year old boy left alone with his dog.

So while you whine about these dogs being "safe" regardless of the data collected and factual information posted, until owners have to register, insure, and have a substantial punishment system put in place to help protect little kids and 76 year old women, I will vote to ban the dog.

I think everyone here knows the damage that a motivated pitbull can inflict. The numbers are usefull. Getting a pit(for the unexperienced) is a dice roll. I just can't bring myself to want to punish people like waifer or his dogs. So what then?

[Gags]

I saw a documentary on dog fighting a couple years back. I was shocked and disturbed. Cruelty does not make you a man nor does it make you tough.

People who fight dogs should be FORCED to fight proffessional boxers...Bare knuckled.

An awesome boxer, bare knuckled, could kill somebody.

[Snotty]

I think everyone here knows the damage that a motivated pitbull can inflict. The numbers are usefull. Getting a pit(for the unexperienced) is a dice roll. I just can't bring myself to want to punish people like waifer or his dogs. So what then?

Well, waifer and others have a choice. In aurora, you can't get a new dog, but you don't have to out your dog down. Not sure what the problem is there, except due to the current data on these dogs, several insurance companies won't touch them. Must be quite a few lawsuits due to these animals and maybe some truth that these are dangerous animals.

Or, Move. If your dog means that much to you, move to an area where you can have the animal.

[Snotty]

An awesome boxer, bare knuckled, could kill somebody.

And they would go to jail for murder.

[Gags]

And they would go to jail for murder.

I know this. I was just imagining what it would be lke to unleash Antonio Tarver on dog fighters.

[Lil_Mule]

actually I'm just happy to see my dead horse post go to over 1000 views :flipoff2:

But the boxer thing is a good point...

Let's say you take a human who is bred and trained to fight... I would bet money that they would resolve a conflict with violence. I need some humans to play with for my studies :(

[Gags]

actually I'm just happy to see my dead horse post go to over 1000 views :flipoff2:

But the boxer thing is a good point...

Let's say you take a human who is bred and trained to fight... I would bet money that they would resolve a conflict with violence. I need some humans to play with for my studies :(

I really didn't want to compare Boxers to pitbulls. The boxer point was made as a sweet punishment to inflict on people who force dogs to fight.

What studies are you interested in using humans for?

[SPY]

What studies are you interested in using humans for?

Fight Club, bitches!!!

[Waifer2112]

Okay, I am stepping out of this argument. You guys tell me that the numbers I quoted are bogus. Then you call me a liberal democrat. So I post valid numbers showing that this dog is dangerous from a Anti-Ban place, from the CDC and an un-biased medical investigation and you still say the numbers are fawked.

3% of all dogs owned are a PB type. Since AKC does not consider the dog to be a pure breed, we can't call it a Pure Breed Dog. Of the Fatal attacks shown, and not taking into consideration bites/maiming, the Pit Bull has moved into the 20% range. Fatal dog attacks have not substantially incereased over the last decade, but the amount that can be attributed to a type of dog, has swung drastically to the Pit Bull. But the numbers and facts aren't good enough for you. So to that, the second you invalidated factual data with your opinions, you invalidated your arguement. You can't refute them with any real data of your own, but you call foul on the data provided to you. I call BS on you.

There are three stories in the papers across the country where the family Pit Bull has killed one of the children, just since August. These were family dogs treated in a manner that most of would consider normal. In fact was a 14 year old boy left alone with his dog.

So while you whine about these dogs being "safe" regardless of the data collected and factual information posted, until owners have to register, insure, and have a substantial punishment system put in place to help protect little kids and 76 year old women, I will vote to ban the dog.

Well, did you read the facts I presented earlier from the CDC on how PB attacks are almost always attributable to their humans? This is and has been my arguement which you don't seem to want to address. You just present statistics about what type of dog does what type of damage. Not the real question. Which is why. Why did the military use PB's in WWII? Was it because they were mentally unstable and untrustworthy?

Anyways, it was fun, and no hard (liberal) feelings.:flipoff2:

[SPY]

Why did the military use PB's in WWII? Was it because they were mentally unstable and untrustworthy?

Is that also why the recruters in high school always went for the stoners, near drop outs, grunge kids, goths, skaters and just plain weird D&D kids instead of the theatre kids, honor socitey and jocks?

All in good fun, don't get pissy this is just what I noticed in high school.

[Waifer2112]

Is that also why the recruters in high school always went for the stoners, near drop outs, grunge kids, goths, skaters and just plain weird D&D kids instead of the theatre kids, honor socitey and jocks?

All in good fun, don't get pissy this is just what I noticed in high school.

You were in high school during WWII?:flipoff2:

[Lil_Mule]

As it relates to my studies or theories... I wonder . . .

If you had a human that was trained in agression, fighting, etc... and you had another human trained in diplomacy. I would theorize that if these two got into a heated debate, the human trained in fighting would resort to violence because he / she doesn't know any better.

Same as a PB.... correction, some PB's, correction every PB EXCEPT for Waifers :P (meant as a joke)

[Snotty]

Well, did you read the facts I presented earlier from the CDC on how PB attacks are almost always attributable to their humans? This is and has been my arguement which you don't seem to want to address. You just present statistics about what type of dog does what type of damage. Not the real question. Which is why. Why did the military use PB's in WWII? Was it because they were mentally unstable and untrustworthy?

Anyways, it was fun, and no hard (liberal) feelings.:flipoff2:

Why does the military use 18 year old kids? because you can point them in a direction and tell them to kill people. much like PB's.

To some extent I will agree with you on the owner. But there have been several cases where the dog in a proper environment, treated and raised like you would raise any other dog, have attacked and killed thier owners and neighbors as well. To me, this would equate to giving your 2 year old a loaded gun and hoping they don't pull the trigger.

It is becoming apparent owning this type dog, takes a dose of responsibility that is above what most people would consider normal. And since that is becoming the situation, and people won't/can't control this dog, then the ban makes even more sense.

[Lil_Mule]

I know of ONE situation where two PB's were raised since they were pups in a loving household. One day, one of them killed the other for no reason.

oops, I've seen that twice. The one I referenced though I was there for.

[Eryl Flynn]

I would like to see proof this has happened AND that it has happened more than any other breed to a significant extent before I would even consider your argument based on it valid.

I have yet to be convinced the breed is a danger, and that it isn't the humans raising these dogs as monsters. There are so many other breeds that can be raised to do this as well that I can't blame one breed for the actions of a few idiot people.

[Snotty]

I don't think there is enough data to prove that to you Eryl. I provide info from CDC, NCRF and an independant medical study that was done on dog bites as a whole. All say the same thing and you still refuse it and still want more info. I am not trying to get you to change your mind because I simply don't care. I will vote to ban the dogs and any others that have become as unsafe as these dogs have.

You are arguing from an emotional point and have yet to offer ANY data to refute that facts that I have put up to back my point of view. In fact, the only thing you have offered was the in-applicabale arguement of comaparing this ban with that of gun control.

Some family pet (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5L1.DTL)

[bsaunder]

And one for Waifer: Find the PitBull (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html)

just because I think it needs repeating.....

[Snotty]

just because I think it needs repeating.....

Actually, it's a trick question. The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier as a true breed. So there is technically no way you could find one in that mix. :flipoff2:

[Eryl Flynn]

Actually, it's a trick question. The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier as a true breed. So there is technically no way you could fi