Policy change in the For Sale - 4x4 section (trial basis)

[Eric]

Btw, I know this will come up so I'll address it right away. I chose the 4x4 section of the classifieds for the trial simply because it is the most popular and stands to benefit (or not) the most from this change. With the highest traffic it also stands to reason that it should provide the most feedback. If we decide we like the change (by "we" I mean we as in "CO4x4", not we as in "I" or even "moderators/admins") then I'll update the Wanted and For Sale-Other forums as well. For now I have no intention of limiting replies in the Help Wanted section. Also, all replies which were created before this policy went into effect will remain until the post expires. All new posts will be reply-free.

Now would be a good time to have the "number of views" feature, rest assured that's coming in the upcoming BB change.

[dave@rokmen]

Sounds liek a real good idea - worthy of trial.. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Can't see how it would hurt anybody..

[ November 15, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: dave@rokmen ]

[Tiffany]

I am on several forums that do this. At first it annoyed me, but as soon as I realized that I didn't have to deal with stupid "Dude that's too much" comments I was thrilled.

Way to go Eric!

[Steve]

I can see pros and cons, and hate that it's come to this, but I agree the BS replies have gotten out of hand. It's a good trial.

[ToyRunner1]

I think it's a good idea over all, but I do have one question. Will the author be able to bump their add to keep it on the main page?? If not, all they'll end up doing is deleting and resubmitting.

[Eric]

Hijacked ads, abusing the seller, feverishly bumping an ad to the top of the forum, unrelated or otherwise worthless replies to ads, etc. etc. You name it, the entire Classifieds section suffers from it. Replies to ads are desirable because if you're asking a question then odds are another interested buyer is probably thinking of asking the same question. Unfortunately history has shown that it just doesn't work that way. Oh you get the seriously interested questions and inquiries, it's everything else that causes a problem.

So we're going to try something a little different for a little while. Starting about 10 minutes ago, replies are no longer allowed in the For Sale-4x4 section. If you are interested in an item simply contact the seller directly via Private Message, email, or by whatever other means they provide for contact. If you post an ad note that you can edit your ad at any time to provide additional info that may result from said inquiries. As always you are encouraged to edit and delete your ad when you've sold your item.

The entire classifieds section is currently "purged" each month of all posts older than 30 days and this will of course continue, however we may consider reducing the ad life to two weeks. The following previous policies shall also continue:

</font> Any duplicate ad (including cross-posting) results in the deletion of ALL relevant posts. Continued abuse results in a one-way ticket out of CO4x4.</font> Absolutely NO commercial ads are permitted in ANY of the CO4x4 forums with the exception of the one and only Commercial forum. Any commercial post found elsewhere will be deleted and repeat offenses (including posting multiple commercial ads in a single sweep), you guessed it, result in a one way ticket out of CO4x4.</font>
As usual I am anxious for honest, constructive feedback on this trial change. At a minimum we are going to give it 2 weeks before allowing replies again, but I encourage you to voice any questions, comments, suggestions, that you may have on this matter at any time. However, please at least give it a try before saying "this blows".

graemlins/beer.gif

ER

[ November 15, 2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Eric ]

[SNOWMAN]

Can't say I disagree.

It will suck that we will no longer be able to help someone get a pic up in their ad. I guess they could just post a help thread in chit chat though and then go practice in the test forum graemlins/smokin.gif

[yarddog]

I bump my adds once a day so they don't get totally buried. I hope people will search because I've still got a lot of stuff for sale that people may never see. :(

If someone posted some BS in one of my 4 sale threads I would use the "report post" feature and hope it gets deleted.

I don't like this at all. Another example of a few ruining it for all. Just my opinion.

[77K5]

I have to agree with yarddog, if someone says something is saying something that is unnecessary, just report them. Also, if the seller doesn't know the answer to a question.(i.e. will this work with my setup?, etc.) , banning replies keeps others who do know the answer from answering and could keep the item from being sold and the buyer from getting a part he/she needs. Just my .02. Good luck with fixing this problem! :D

[Scorpion]

What ever it takes. Good call.

[luv2jp]

i don't like it

[saeufer82]

I think that it may be okay in the For Sale sections to eliminate the problems you mentioned, but it might be better to allow replies so that when someone posts "D35c for sale from XJ" and then someone asks "what gears are in it?" everyone can see the replies.

As far as the wanted section, I don't think that's a good idea at all--if I want something that someone else wants, and 5 people offer me one, the other person then has 4 sellers to pick from. Otherwise we might end up with 5 posts "I need a disco D30 passenger's side outer shaft".

[IronMonkey]

Yay, we're all "Wheelers"! Sorry Jordan, you'll never be a "Mountain Madman".

Works for me. So maybe people will learn to be more specific with their for sale posts when they get bombarded with a dozen PMs and e-mails. Hey, this thing isn't costing anyone to post a for sale, so why get all worked up over reply capability. W're just lucky to have this. Test away Trail Boss Dude.

[Blake Shepherd]

Sucks that we had to do this, but it will cut out the smart ass remarks from Jordan and the like. Maybe we can turn the replies back on in a few weeks. graemlins/beer.gif

[ishmaelcallme]

I am afraid I don't care for this policy. No one forces anyone to read beyond the first post. I like having the option of reading the byplay on an item if I care to.

Perhaps a better solution would be that reply's would no longer bump things to the top. Only the initial post would determine order. Solves the BTT problem without strangling dialog. Sound good?

[MountainJeep]

But I dont want to be a wheeler..I want to be a Gonzo Wheeler!


graemlins/crybaby.gif

Oops off topic sorry...Josh started it!

[HIX]

I Think it is a good idea.

[Clod Hopper]

The ability to reply means I can ask questions. If I am asking them, then so would others. Quick dissemination of information. In addition, it gives me indication of the interest in a part (ie should I even bother trying to buy it because five people are already in line). Since no one can judge where a current sale is, buyers will continue to bombard sellers with PMs and emails on parts that are tentatively sold (geez, more crap to respond to). Since I cannot BTT my ad, I would have to keep putting up a new one? How many duplicate ads will be listed here?

I can only guess that the removal of replys is to discourage flagrant BTTs or side discussions in the sale area. Yeah, there was a little of that, but this really screws the rest of us.

Oh, and Eric, I CAN say "THIS BLOWS". I completed two sales yesterday (one buy, one sell) and both were a major PITA with the new rules! :(

[ November 16, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Clod Hopper ]

[al24]

I appreciate the use of this FREE site and if these are the rules fine. If you don't like them I guess there are other places to post for sale. As far as asking questions PM and the seller can always update if the info needs to be in the ad, also instead of dragging up old posts to see if the item is sold yet maybe the sellers will DELETE after the item is sold.
Al

[Hammertime]

Officially I really like the reply feature it helps the seller get more from the add. You may get two offers and everyone sees it. Let's bring it back in a couple weeks and not abuse it. On this post it should read CLICK HERE Not LOOK HERE

[Scorpion]

The ONLY difference between before and now is that you can't reply openly to a for sale item. What's the problem with that? You can still send a PM Email, and/or call to your hearts desire. Since the person who posted the item can edit any time he wants, there's no reason why he can't add info as others ask questions...therefore you don't NEED to reply in the for sale section.

With that said, who can tell me why it's necessary to reply in the For Sale Section?

If people start to 'get it', we will become free again. Until then, we have the chance to enjoy a short break...

[formatt]

at first, i didn't like it. i posted some tires there yesterday and wasn't for this at all but so far, its working totally smoothly. i've gotten a few responses and i don't have to get an email notification saying someone has responded to my post.. go there and see someone else hijacking my post or "right on"...

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[squirrelman83]

One more thing to consider...

How many times have you guys wanted to reply to someone's post but their PM mailbox is full? I know it has happened to me a few times. A potential seller may be unaware of this, especially if they are new, and have 5 or 10 people who are interested in a part, but unable to get in touch with them due to too many private messages in his/her mailbox.

Also, the issue would only be compounded if the part is at a good price, or a common item which a lot of people want to reply to. For example, a post with '35" MT/R's for $500,' or a 'Warn winch for $350,' are only a couple of examples of things that will probably attract a lot of attention, and a seller may get 10 PM's asking "How much tread is left?" or "How much have you used it?" In the mean time, a real potential buyer may be unable to get ahold of the seller, and give up due to the constant "Better Luck Next Time... Mailbox Full" autoreply. And if the seller is trying to get rid of multiple parts... :eek: .

Just one more thought to consider. I also agree with the problems above that have already been noted by yarddog, 77K5, saeufer82, ishmaelcallme, Clod Hopper, and Hammertime. I also agree that it is sad that it has come to this. There have been a lot of nonsense replies to posts, but think there should be other methods of dealing with them. Too bad a few people can't follow the rules and ruin it for everybody. :( ~Steve

[flexychevy]

I guess its worth a try.I think there is pros and cons on the hole thing.I would hope that we could put it back to the way it was with out any prob's.

[Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford]

I like it and here is why.

A) I hate getting 10 replys to something I post for sale saying "dibs", "mine", "next in line" etc. Then not a single person actually calls or eamils me, the seller. This will for the truly interested to contact you.


B)Some people sit at their computer all day long and bump their "for sale" post back to the top. This does three things that upset me as a board user. 1) It forces other "for sale" posts lower in the list for those people that don't have time to bump it all day. 2) It keeps a for sale post in the "daily topics" I know your item is for sale, I don't need to see it 30 times. 3) If someone is not buying your stuff, it is not becuse you have not bumped it enough, it is either crap or the price is too high!

C) This would clean up the for sale section so that people can read it and honestly see what is for sale, not what is bumped the most.

D) I hate reading 4 pages of text to figure out if something is sold yet! Post it, leave it alone and delete when gone.(let it expire)

I have the feeling that there is really about 1/10 the stuff for sale here than the boards make it look like.

[combatir]

Originally posted by squirrelman83:
One more thing to consider...

How many times have you guys wanted to reply to someone's post but their PM mailbox is full?
a real potential buyer may be unable to get ahold of the seller, and give up due to the constant "Better Luck Next Time... Mailbox Full" autoreply. I have had this happen to me also, but I just click on the "send an email" icon and shoot them an email, or call a phone number that they may have posted.

This change has made the sale section just the same as the classifieds in the paper or AutoTrader, etc. It works for them, why not here? I like the fact that a reply does not send the sale item back to the top of the list.

The only suggestion I would make is to have sub categories for posting sale items. Drivetrain parts, engine parts, complete vehicles, etc. so that buyers can go right to where they want to buy without sifting through numerous adds looking for what they want.

Bill

[2yotame]

Eric has done the right thing here. all the pissen and moanen is half the problem. Yes maybe we dont like some things but get over it and deal. And if that dont work go tell your mom. we just need to post a complete add and work the details privately.

[Cruiserdude]

I to am sick of people bashing price, and or text in an add, but i do miss the reply button, The reply's help each other clarify part compatibility, condition, location, etc. There must be a way to lock out those few that spoil it for all the rest. My vote would be to bring the reply's back and disapline flagrant user's.
Cruiserdude

[yarddog]

The problem could be solved if we had another moderator dedicated to the 4 sale section. It just needs a few simple rules:

Do not hijack the threads with "that price is way to high" or "I just saw the same thing on xxx.com for x amount" comments.

Limit your bumping to once a day.

3 strikes over a ceratin amount of time and you're banned, period.

The bottom line is we need to ban the people who are fawking it up. Have a 0 tolerance policy and enforce it. Get rid of the trouble makers and problem solved. I gaurantee within 1 month the BS replies would stop and the 4 sale section would be prolem free.

Pirate has found a way to deal with the BS and still allow replies so I don't know why we can't do it. People have said all people will do is delete and repost, I won't do it but maybe once a week. Who's going to keep track of all the re-posters?

I suppose Eric's mind is made up though...

[boardmike]

posted by cruiserdude:
I to am sick of people bashing price, and or text in an add, but i do miss the reply button, The reply's help each other clarify part compatibility, condition, location, etc. There must be a way to lock out those few that spoil it for all the rest. My vote would be to bring the reply's back and disapline flagrant user's.
Cruiserdude

I totally agree! Discipline the few idiot "post for the numbers" posters on the board and our problems would be solved. Replies provide good info on the for sale item and some of that info comes from replies and not the original posters. Please bring back the reply button after the two week trial. Thanks.
Mike

[Kittrell]

Originally posted by yarddog:
The problem could be solved if we had another moderator dedicated to the 4 sale section........ The bottom line is we need to ban the people who are fawking it up. Have a 0 tolerance policy and enforce it. Get rid of the trouble makers and problem solved. I gaurantee within 1 month the BS replies would stop and the 4 sale section would be prolem free.

Pirate has found a way to deal with the BS and still allow replies so I don't know why we can't do it. People have said all people will do is delete and repost, I won't do it but maybe once a week. Who's going to keep track of all the re-posters?

I suppose Eric's mind is made up though... The only problem I have with it is the "bump" factor. When I am looking through the classifieds, I do not go past page two. I do this because I know that the parts that are still for sale or still current will be closer to the front. Now when my for sale add gets to page 3 (which is when I usually bump it), if they are like me, no one will see it. I always assume that if something is that far back that it is sold. Now I have to look through 10 pages just to see everything that is still for sale? I'll just start posting on ILJ because I have a cherokee. But for the rest of the colorado people who don't drive a Jeep, they just have to deal with it? Doesn't sound like any fun to me, I am against this policy.
DJ

[Big Dave]

The level of immaturity on this board is what forced Eric to do this. If you don't believe me, go read some of the crap people of posted in the "For Sale" forum regarding this topic. I think we all need to remember that this is a free site, and Eric has actually asked for "constructive criticism" on this topic. Many boards would have just taken away the for sale area.

As for the people complaining about searching through the forum when people can't btt their stuff, you are frickin lazy!!! The posts are still in chronological order so that you can simply look at the ones that have been posted since you were online last rather than have to weed through all the crap that people have BTT'd 500 times because they can't sell their crap. I like it, but the people who are deleting and resubmitting their posts are going to be a PITA.

I would recommend that only moderators are allowed to delete posts, but we may still edit our posts to change information. This should help solve the "delete and re-submit" problem that I suspect we will have and people can simply edit their posts to indicate that they are sold and then let them fall off after two weeks.

[ November 16, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Big Dave ]

[SerialExperimentLain]

I'd rather have someone be a mod nazi and delete any unrelated posts instead of no replies. like deleting a post that only says 'OMG that jeep is nice' or 'haha I one cheaper'

Do you know how annoying it would be to get a PM from someone asking the exact same question someone just asked when they could have just looked at someones reply instead.

[cheROCKee]

I like the reply option simply because it helps the seller answer questions for all to read. If the seller updates the post to reflect the PMs then the system still works well.
My apologies for insiting a riot without firing a shot!

[Steve]

Originally posted by Big Dave:
I would recommend that only moderators are allowed to delete posts, but we may still edit our posts to change information. This should help solve the "delete and re-submit" problem that I suspect we will have and people can simply edit their posts to indicate that they are sold and then let them fall off after two weeks. You don't have to delete a post to put another one up, so that would serve no purpose at all. Someone could simply post a new message every day to BTT their ad without deleting the old one.

FWIW Eric, I've found that I don't like the new policy for several reasons. I agree with someone else that a poll should be taken to gauge everyone's feelings about it. Before someone flames me, I know that this isn't a democracy, but it seems to me that a very few of the 3000+ members are spoiling things for the majority of us.

You don't make progress by punishing the many for the acts of a few. That's exactly what the anti-OHV crowd does to us, and we don't like it.

[Eric]

I see some common concerns that I'd like to address:
</font> If I can't reply, how can I ask a question? Surely you've read the classifieds in a local newspaper or perhaps browsed eBay? If you have a question then ask the seller. Private Message, email, telephone, fax, telepathy, whatever means the seller prefers as a preferred method of contact. Your question or comment does not need to be publicly displayed for you to receive the answer you seek. If you have a question, ask.</font> What if the seller can't answer my question? More often than not, this is what created the "forum" feel to the For Sale sections. Think about this... if you're looking at an item and not sure if it will work for your vehicle, and the seller doesn't know the answer, does leaving that question in the ad really make sense? You're hoping that someone else will happen upon that ad and, instead of seeing just an item description, will see your question as well and provide an answer. Keep in mind that they're probably also interested or they wouldn't have looked at the ad, so will they give an honest answer? Perhaps, but it makes more sense to post your question in a relevant discussion forum thus maximizing your chances of having the question answered. Better yet, do some research. You may be surprised how often the same questions have been asked and answered across the internet, especially as far as swaps and interchangability is concerned.</font> As a seller now I may get bombarded with the same question over and over again, possibly long after the item has been sold. This is where we excel over the traditional newspaper ad. If someone asks a question (or you receive several inquiries with the same question) you have the ability to update your ad with this information. This is the exact same process as before only you're editing your ad (which you should have been doing before anyway so that all of the relevant info was at the top) instead of replying with the info, possibly several replies below your initial post. Someone asks a question, you provide the answer for all who have the same question.

What happens when the item has been sold? Again this is an advantage over the traditional newspaper ads. When the item is sold you can remove the ad immediately. Nothing has changed here.

In essence, both of these concerns (questions and items already sold) can be answered in two words: Seller Responsibility. As the seller it is your responsibility to provide enough detail for a buyer to make an educated decision. It is your responsibility to keep the ad updated with relevant information (this includes providing answers to common questions and removing the ad if it's no longer for sale).</font> How do I know how many buyers are ahead of me? Does it really matter? If you're interested in the item then contact the seller. Period. This decision has nothing to do with how many are ahead of you. If you want the item I can guarantee that you won't end up buying it if you never contact the seller. When you contact the seller they'll probably tell you how many are ahead of you. If they don't and you want to know then ask them. Buyers routinely back out of deals so just because someone beat you to the punch doesn't mean you won't end up with the item when it's all said and done.</font> As a seller, now I can't bump my ad to the top without reposting it. Now the forum will suffer from duplicate ads. I have my own rant in regards to the abuse of bumping ads, but that's for another discussion. The short answer is this question was addressed in my initial post. Any duplicate ad results in both ads being deleted. Repeat offenders are banned from CO4x4. This relies on the moderators to catch you, so surely some will slip by, but I expect that we will be able to keep this form in check. If not right away, then over time as the abusive users are removed.</font> What if the seller's PM inbox is full, or worse yet they don't use the PM feature at all? Now how do I contact the user? This complaint is similar to the seller who posts his ad and never checks back, relying on you to contact them directly. Bottom line, it's the seller's responsibility to make it clear how they expect you to contact them. If it's via PM then it's their responsibility to keep their inbox in order. If it's via email, then it's their responsibility to check their own email. As a buyer you can't be expected to hold the seller's hand. If their item doesn't sell because they screwed up, that's their fault alone.</font> Instead of removing the ability to reply, why don't you add a moderator and let them keep it clean and organized. I am not going to favor any solution that essentially boils down to hand holding unless there is no other choice. I'm looking for a way to address the situation without increasing the number of volunteers or critically wounding the functionality of the classifieds section. Asking someone to volunteer their daily time to review and moderate these forums is a greater task than you may imagine. It takes more time and effort than you'd expect and it is often a thankless or even rudely criticized task. An additional moderator may be required, regardless of the outcome of this trial. What we're looking for in this trial is hopefully a reduction in the level of effort asked of the moderators while still providing a functional resource.</font> This is graemlins/rainbow.gif and I can't believe how stupid you are for doing this. Screw this, I'll find somewhere else to sell my stuff Believe it or not, there have been a few replies like this (I'm paraphrasing of course ;) ). First of all, thanks for at least giving it some time before making your final decision :rolleyes: Sarcastically speaking of course. Some folks just hate change with a passion, no matter what the change may be. If it's your choice to go elsewhere you have that right, any time you choose. Nobody is bound to participate in CO4x4, if you don't like it then leave. Those who do participate here will thank you for it. I owe you nothing.</font>
That's a quick summary of the concerns presented so far, and as I expressed in each reply I don't see any of those concerns presenting a problem. All of the previous functionality is still there. The only change that I see is the step up in seller/buyer responsibility. Now before you tear my head off, know that I do see the underlying concern. That concern is the change in the process to accomplish the same means. Before as a buyer you would simply reply, now you send a PM, email or call. All of which can be performed just as easily (note that PM and Email require the same number of keystrokes), its just different. As a seller you'll still get questions and you still have a means to globally answer those questions. Where you might have seen the question as a reply, now you receive the question directly. Where you might have replied to your own ad with the info for all to see, now you edit your ad. Again, same number of keystrokes it's just a different approach. I could write this concern off as resistance to change, but I'm willing to consider the possibility that yes, while the functionality is still there and very similar, it's different enough to be a royal pain in the ass and this sucks. That's a valid concern and we need to talk about it. If I missed something or misunderstood the concerns presented so far I apologize. Please let me know and clarify so that we can discuss it.

On top of the complaints there have been several replies in support of the change. In addition, a few concerns have been brought up which are actually concerns independant of this excercise (ex. etiquette for bumping posts). We'll get to those, but in a separate discussion. There have also been some good suggestions for improving upon this change and I'd like to address these:



Originally posted by saeufer82:
As far as the wanted section, I don't think that's a good idea at all--if I want something that someone else wants, and 5 people offer me one, the other person then has 4 sellers to pick from. Otherwise we might end up with 5 posts "I need a disco D30 passenger's side outer shaft". This is a good point, the Wanted section is a little more suited to a forum-like atmosphere. You're asking for help which can benefit others as opposed to the For Sale section where you have the item and you're the only person selling your item. So for now this trial applies only to the For Sale sections.


Originally posted by Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford:
B)Some people sit at their computer all day long and bump their "for sale" post back to the top.
...
It keeps a for sale post in the "daily topics"This is actually a great suggestion even though it wasn't posed as such. The classified ads should not be part of the daily Active Topics summary. Perhaps Wanted and Help Wanted, but not the For Sale sections. I haven't found an easy way to exclude them in the current software, but I'll try to address this when we switch.


Originally posted by combatir:
The only suggestion I would make is to have sub categories for posting sale items. Drivetrain parts, engine parts, complete vehicles, etc. so that buyers can go right to where they want to buy without sifting through numerous adds looking for what they want.
While this isn't 100% related to the changes, this is a good suggestion. I've seen the same request in the Suggestion Box unfortunately at this time I don't have a way to cleanly implement this. The upcoming BB upgrade will give me the ability to create sub-catagories. Then I'll be able to split the For Sale forums into more specific areas without cluttering the overall forum layout. With our current setup if I did this the classifieds forums would outnumber all other forums on the main page. So, this is coming.

This has been a marathon reply but I hope I've addressed most of the early concerns presented so far. Please keep the constructive feedback coming graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[ November 16, 2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Eric ]

[sw99]

I'm just happy to have a great site like this around. Do whatever has to be done Eric, I know you put a ton of your personal time into the site, thanks!

[Eric]

The following comments are closely related:

Originally posted by yarddog:
I suppose Eric's mind is made up though...
Originally posted by GJ Broncoman [Steve]:
I agree with someone else that a poll should be taken to gauge everyone's feelings about it. Before someone flames me, I know that this isn't a democracy, but it seems to me that a very few of the 3000+ members are spoiling things for the majority of us.I won't pretend to be unbiased, so far I happen to support this change. However, I am trying to gauge my decision based on your feedback as well as my own preference. While CO4x4 may not be a true democracy, I do value everyone's opinion. If I didn't, this would have been an announcement instead of a test where I've invited feedback. The old-timers that are still around here surely remember similar instances in the past where I've tried to incorporate the desires of the majority, sometimes to a fault. I think the poll is a good idea so long as we've had ample time to try this before casting a vote. In other words, I'd like to wait a week or so before opening the poll. If the poll favors one decision and I choose another does that make me a hypocrit? No, I don't think so. In the end I have to make the decision whether to implement this policy change or not, along with the myriad of other site-related decisions that I have to make. As the admin I have to. So the short answers to the questions above are:
No, my mind is not made up yet
No, we are not a true democracy however...
Yes, I do value your opinion and...
Yes, I do consider the majority preference in making my decisions.

Please keep the constructive feedback coming graemlins/beer.gif

[al24]

Originally posted by sw99:
I'm just happy to have a great site like this around. Do whatever has to be done Eric, I know you put a ton of your personal time into the site, thanks! Amen!!
Al

[ants]

I think it's a great idea, I hate having to read through all the extra posts.

[casper]

I got the feeling that if someone was out of hand the members handled it, that's the way it looked to me. Sure there was some BS between Buds and sometime it got way to long, that's when the monitors should step in.
True, I didn't like somebody cutting a seller down and responded accordingly.
Now when you look at the "For Sale - 4x4" all you see are "0"s. Man! looks like a site I really want to look at.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Get rid of the trouble makers, you have the power to do that.

[Thumper]

Well, I am always open to change, but in my opinion I dot like this one. I hate it when a few bad apples spoil the bunch. I love to come to CO4x4 and see all the replies to the posts, and read all the questions and some of the debate. On the other hand I hate to read a post and see someone say "Oh that is too much", or "you can buy a new one for cheaper than that." But sometimes even that is good, because I have seen people sell used stuff for more than it cost new. On the flip side of that though maybe that person got ripped from jump street and just trying to get what they got in it back. One thing I can say about CO4x4 is that it is a good bunch of people and have had nothing but good experiences buying and selling. Unlike Pirate and its "Fawkin Newbie" crap. I cannot stand to post on that thing and get flamed for asking a normal question. Anyway just my $.02 and I hope the reply part comes back.

[mentaljp350]

I support the trial change. I for one am amazed at the immaturity and childlike behavior and get pretty tired of reading it when I am just trying to find the details on the item for sale. Thank you Eric for providing this site.

[stewp97]

Originally posted by Eric:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by combatir:
The only suggestion I would make is to have sub categories for posting sale items. Drivetrain parts, engine parts, complete vehicles, etc. so that buyers can go right to where they want to buy without sifting through numerous adds looking for what they want.
While this isn't 100% related to the changes, this is a good suggestion. I've seen the same request in the Suggestion Box unfortunately at this time I don't have a way to cleanly implement this. The upcoming BB upgrade will give me the ability to create sub-catagories. Then I'll be able to split the For Sale forums into more specific areas without cluttering the overall forum layout. With our current setup if I did this the classifieds forums would outnumber all other forums on the main page. So, this is coming.
graemlins/thumbsup.gif </font>[/QUOTE]I really like this idea. With sub-categories, it should be a lot easier to wade through the junk, and find the things I am actually interested in. I would imagine it would be a lot more like the For Sale-Other section, were things stay on the front page a lot longer. I know I am as guilty as a lot of others regarding the bumping, both on my posts and the posts of friends. I really don't see what is wrong with that, but this is not my board. I too have always assumed that if a post has gone over a few days with no response, it must have been sold. I just need to change my way of thinking now

BTW, thank you Eric for giving us a free place to sell our junk. It is nice to have a site like this that is local, easy to access, and has the stuff that I am interested in.

peter

[IronMonkey]

For sale posts like this one don't help things...

Dumb Post (http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=007704)

[Eric]

Originally posted by IronMonkey:
For sale posts like this one don't help things...:rolleyes: Thanks for pointing that out, I deleted it along with the clown that posted it. graemlins/devil.gif Thanks also to those who sent moderator alerts graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[Snotty]

Well, I don't like it, but I understand it. The thread hijacking was uncalled for and the some of the abuse was really out of line.

As for now, I can live with the rules and deal with it. I think it will cause more people to think about what and how they post. Like, putting in the gear ratio of that D35 they are trying to sell. It will also help sellers that only want to be contacted in a particular fashion. IE Cole Ford's for sale posts come to mind. If I want to be emailed since I can't check the board, well, I guess you have to email me. It really puts more power in the seller's hand if used right.

Thanks for the hard work and effort Eric. Bummer you have to babysit so much again...

[Camp]

One of the other beauties of this new policy is, if people don't want to be contacted once there item is sold, they will come back and delete the post, rather than leave it up for people to continue to read and hope to buy. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[FreakyWheeler]

I like the new changes Trail Boss graemlins/beer.gif

[RockRunner4x4]

I don't like it as squirrelman83, yardog and 77k5 have mentioned. If someone else wants to ask a question that someone besides the seller might know, they cannon do this. I agree the constant bumping is annoying, but like others have mentioned, it should be limited. I for example, just reposted my Toy 3rd for sale before reading the new rules, as I need to sell it immediately due to some major $$ problems right now. Without being allowed to bump sometimes, things will just eventually fall down the list. Those that are motivated in selling their objects and informing others, in the past, have kept their post on the first or second page, while those who post a for sale item and just let it fall without answering anyone's replies, let their item fall down. I just don't think this solves anything because I don't think that those who didn't answer replies to their sale itme in the past are going to now answer their PMs. I'm willing to give this a shot, but I just don't think it'll work. This has always been a pretty nice place to deal with peopele with mean and stupid comments kept to a minimum, much unlike Pirate4x4. But only time will tell.

[total 4x4]

New format stinks. Look just make a rule and threaten the same termination that you do in this ad and those BS replys will decrease. Searching when I tend to be a impulse buyer and total dreamer SUCKS!

Please put this board back the way it was, and all those that want this level of control can be you secret gestopo police and turn in those bad guys!

[redeye]

Originally posted by Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford:
I like it and here is why.

A) I hate getting 10 replys to something I post for sale saying "dibs", "mine", "next in line" etc. Then not a single person actually calls or eamils me, the seller. This will for the truly interested to contact you.


B)Some people sit at their computer all day long and bump their "for sale" post back to the top. This does three things that upset me as a board user. 1) It forces other "for sale" posts lower in the list for those people that don't have time to bump it all day. 2) It keeps a for sale post in the "daily topics" I know your item is for sale, I don't need to see it 30 times. 3) If someone is not buying your stuff, it is not becuse you have not bumped it enough, it is either crap or the price is too high!

C) This would clean up the for sale section so that people can read it and honestly see what is for sale, not what is bumped the most.

D) I hate reading 4 pages of text to figure out if something is sold yet! Post it, leave it alone and delete when gone.(let it expire)

I have the feeling that there is really about 1/10 the stuff for sale here than the boards make it look like.

[It's NOT a Jeep thing]

I like it, it makes it much easier to see the new listings

[auto_know]

Great site you have here Eric. I have bought and sold items in the For Sale section, all transactions have been smooth. I agree with the others, that if it could be broken down into more sub groups it would work smoother.(less clutter) I also like being able to ask/respond to questions in the add like it was before. Don't let the 1% that abuse it ruin it for the rest of us, if at all possible. We'll live with what ever you decide! As for those that have said in the Chit Chat section "Love it or leave it!' I say they should start their own web site, then they can make their own rules and leave yours to how you want it to operate. Keep up the good work! graemlins/beer.gif

[total 4x4]

graemlins/bounce3.gif WHY THE OLD WAY WAS BETTER! graemlins/bounce3.gif

An example of an add below (not mine). Is it an auto that I seek, would others like to know if it is a stick or hopefully not. Modified? Price decreases? Color? Again all thoses answers on the board update others and show what is hot...

In other words more robust, cut out the punks and we all win!

1999 Jeep wrangler. 4.0L. 46K miles. Tan soft top, bikini, wind jammer and dust cover. Asking $12,000 O.B.O. email me @ cmjohns1@adelphia.net for pictures and any other information.

[Eric]

Originally posted by HRock:
If someone else wants to ask a question that someone besides the seller might know, they cannon do this.I think I addressed this one already, but let me know if I'm misunderstanding your question. Here's what I said early in regards to this:
</font> What if the seller can't answer my question? More often than not, this is what created the "forum" feel to the For Sale sections. Think about this... if you're looking at an item and not sure if it will work for your vehicle, and the seller doesn't know the answer, does leaving that question in the ad really make sense? You're hoping that someone else will happen upon that ad and, instead of seeing just an item description, will see your question as well and provide an answer. Keep in mind that they're probably also interested or they wouldn't have looked at the ad, so will they give an honest answer? Perhaps, but it makes more sense to post your question in a relevant discussion forum thus maximizing your chances of having the question answered. Better yet, do some research. You may be surprised how often the same questions have been asked and answered across the internet, especially as far as swaps and interchangability is concerned.</font>


I agree the constant bumping is annoying, but like others have mentioned, it should be limited. I for example, just reposted my Toy 3rd for sale before reading the new rules, as I need to sell it immediately due to some major $$ problems right now. Without being allowed to bump sometimes, things will just eventually fall down the list. Those that are motivated in selling their objects and informing others, in the past, have kept their post on the first or second page, while those who post a for sale item and just let it fall without answering anyone's replies, let their item fall down.As mentioned, the ettiquette of bumping ads is best left to another discussion because it is not affected by this change. If you want to bump your ad, delete the old one and repost. Same functionality, different way of doing it.


I just don't think this solves anything because I don't think that those who didn't answer replies to their sale itme in the past are going to now answer their PMs.As you said, the problem exists in both formats. Before what if they never checked for replies? You can't just assume that they would. At least now they have to specify a preferred method of contact so you aren't left wondering if they're checking their own ad for replies. I think I also addressed this on earlier but let me know if this doesn't answer your concern:
</font> What if the seller's PM inbox is full, or worse yet they don't use the PM feature at all? Now how do I contact the user? This complaint is similar to the seller who posts his ad and never checks back, relying on you to contact them directly. Bottom line, it's the seller's responsibility to make it clear how they expect you to contact them. If it's via PM then it's their responsibility to keep their inbox in order. If it's via email, then it's their responsibility to check their own email. As a buyer you can't be expected to hold the seller's hand. If their item doesn't sell because they screwed up, that's their fault alone.</font>


Originally posted by total 4x4:
Searching when I tend to be a impulse buyer and total dreamer SUCKS!
:confused: You had to scan all of the ads before, so what has changed?


Originally posted by total 4x4:
graemlins/bounce3.gif WHY THE OLD WAY WAS BETTER! graemlins/bounce3.gif

An example of an add below (not mine). Is it an auto that I seek, would others like to know if it is a stick or hopefully not. Modified? Price decreases? Color? Again all thoses answers on the board update others and show what is hot...
Ok, let's use this example. It's an excellent example of buyer/seller responsibility. You're reading it and you want to know if it's an auto and what color. Seller goofed by not providing enough info so what do you do? He specified an email address as a form of contact so you simply send an email asking "is it an auto? What color"? If the seller wants to actually sell the thing he'll write back to you and update his ad so that anyone else who reads it sees what color it is and if it's an auto. Likewise you asked about price changes. If the seller isn't getting any bites and wants to lower his price he simply edits his ad and lowers the price. With a significant change like this it'd probably be wise for the seller to actually delete the previous ad and create a new one with the lower price and a new subject that says "lowered price". Does this not work? The only change I see is that instead of replying you're sending emails or PM's. Instead of bumping you're deleting and reposting. I'm trying, but so far I can't see that we lost any functionality in this change.

Edit: Oops, forgot the comment about what's hot? When you contact the person they can tell you how many are ahead of you. This was also addressed earlier but let me know if the following doesn't answer your concern:
</font> How do I know how many buyers are ahead of me? Does it really matter? If you're interested in the item then contact the seller. Period. This decision has nothing to do with how many are ahead of you. If you want the item I can guarantee that you won't end up buying it if you never contact the seller. When you contact the seller they'll probably tell you how many are ahead of you. If they don't and you want to know then ask them. Buyers routinely back out of deals so just because someone beat you to the punch doesn't mean you won't end up with the item when it's all said and done.</font>

[Eric]

A brief summary so far, here are some key concerns that we should be able to check off the list of potential problems:</font> You can still "bump" your ad (delete and repost)</font> You can still ask questions (Contact the seller. If the seller doesn't know the answer do some research which might mean asking in a discussion forum)</font> Sellers can still change their price and/or add new information (edit)</font> You can still find out how "hot" an item is (ask the seller when you tell them you're interested)</font>

[total 4x4]

Eric, please try looking at solving your initial problem another way as comparision to what you have done(no posting). You are still looking at this as one solution and trying to defend it.

This is kind of like GB saying we are going to war. Looks like one man's decision has got over 300 men and women dead, with 1,000s more injured. I care about the individual. Your solution serves only the massess at the expense of most likely many. Hate to compare you to GB, but he is a "I'm right your wrong" guy. There is a win win here. I do believe the dribbled needed to be fixed, just not this way and not absolutely! I will just rest my case here. graemlins/beer.gif

[Camp]

Originally posted by total 4x4:
Eric, please try looking at solving your initial problem another way as comparision to what you have done(no posting). You are still looking at this as one solution and trying to defend it.

This is kind of like GB saying we are going to war. Looks like one man's decision has got over 300 men and women dead, with 1,000s more injured. I care about the individual. Your solution serves only the massess at the expense of most likely many. Hate to compare you to GB, but he is a "I'm right your wrong" guy. There is a win win here. I do believe the dribbled needed to be fixed, just not this way and not absolutely! I will just rest my case here. graemlins/beer.gif So let me see if I get this right. You want Eric to sit all day and watch for someone not doing the right thing on the board, eliminate them immediately like some kind of Executioner? This all so you don't have to change your way of doing things? The changes made to the site effect selling an item very little. Eric has stated how each change is effected and what the solution is for each of them. You have offered no idea other than "I don't like it" and delete everyone that makes a problem :rolleyes:

[Joker]

I think you need to solve the "actual problem" which is the few posters who thinks it's their responsibility to be-little, talk smack or just add wise-ass comments.

In my opinion your going about this the wrong way.
It's ok sometimes to take "tip-toe" appraoch to a problem,then there is a time to take the "put the smack down" approach and just get rid of the idiots that think they know it all.

[Eric]

The smack-talkin' jackass posters are a different problem. They show up everywhere, not just the For Sale forums, and we already deal with them on a case by case basis. Ask around, a few have already gotten the boot for being an ass.


Originally posted by total 4x4:
Eric, please try looking at solving your initial problem another way as comparision to what you have done(no posting). You are still looking at this as one solution and trying to defend it.I'm looking at the two solutions that are currently on the table. If you want to offer another solution please do so we can consider it. So far the options are the one that I've already implemented as a trial and the other involves dedicating a moderator to screen every post.</font> I've already expressed my thoughts on the moderator deal, that equates to hand-holding and an increase in time/effort to implement. The cost of that option is pretty clear so that's why there hasn't been much discussion on it.</font> The other option, the one we're trying, seems to be working with all of the functionality of the previous system with no administrative costs. In fact, it reduces the administrative effort. Obviously I'm favoring this solution at this point.</font>I asked for constructive feedback because I want to know how this affects you. I want to know if I'm missing something about this proposed solution. So far I've seen replies in favor of, indifferent to, and opposed to the solution. In favor of and indifferent to don't really need an explanation, as long as I know this isn't a step backwards. It's the replies which oppose it that I'm most interested in. Tell me WHY this doesn't work for you. So far I've looked at every proposed reason (if I missed one please let me know) against and after some thought I've found a way to replicate the function in the new system. The only aspect missing is the forum-like discussion which is what we're trying to remove.

Don't let this get you down, I want to thank you and everyone else who has replied with concerns about this possible change. This isn't an ambush, I didn't think everything out ahead of time. It was literally a decision on a whim. After viewing a few ads the other night full of "bump, bump, ttt, right on, sweet, gimme a call, etc. etc." I just wondered what it would be like if we dropped the Reply feature. Obviously you have to be able to contact the seller and the seller has to be able to update/delete their ad so those issues were pretty obvious and I thought about those right away. I didn't think about bumping an ad or getting answers to questions that the seller doesn't know until those issues were brought up here. So please, don't be discouraged if we find a way to address a concern that comes up. This isn't a competition and I'm not doing this as some sort of evil exercise where I have all of the answers and seek enjoyment by shooting down all who question me graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

So let's get back to it, we have a week and a half to go for the current proposed solution. Let me know why this doesn't work for you and we'll try to find a way to address that. If that means trying something completely different that's not a problem, we have all the time we want to come up with a decision. Comments in favor of any proposed solution are welcome too, this doesn't have to be a troubleshooting quest only. It's nice to hear who's in favor of certain things and why. It's possible there's a benefit that I've overlooked as well and that may play an important role when it's time to decide which path to take.

graemlins/beer.gif

[Grandpa Jeep]

Eric,
I am not in favor of the new rule. As a savy buyer, I usually don't reply publicly if I am interested anyway simply because I don't want to bring the ad to the top for another potential buyer to see, but I do appreciate seeing questions answered by the seller. It sometimes give me a clue if he knows what it is he's selling and how much interest there is in it. I have on occasion helped a guy out by answering a question on a item I was neither selling nor interested in buying as well.

I admit I don't cruise the for sale boards that much, but I have only seen one case where it was really a problem. In that case the seller deleted his ad and posted a new one. So I guess I have to ask the question, how big of a problem was this? Was it really broken?

I would also like to add that of all the 4x4 boards out there this one is the most usefull for buying and selling. Since it's a Colorado board rather than a Jeep board or other 4x4 board, the part I'm interested in is most likely pretty local to me and I won't have to worry about shipping, nor of sending money and getting scammed. Nearly everything I have bought or sold off this board I have personally met the guy inspected the part and exchanged money face to face. That's a tremendous advantage for me, so I hope this change will not affect the number of people who use for sale section of the board.

[theJunker]

I am usually in the role as the seller, not the buyer, so here are my thoughts.

I do not like the new system, because of the marketing op lost. What I mean is, that many times, the first 1, 2, or 3 people that contact me within a post do not buy the product. However, my answers many times will influence other potential buyers, whether they are following the thread, or happen across it in a search.

I think this will lead towards people selling less on this board, with potential great deals to their 4x4 neighbors, instead the items will be sold to someone they will never meet and never see (using pirate, ebay, etc).

I think the sub-sectioning of the sale section would be a good thing, Pirate did this about a year ago, and it is so much easier to find things to buy there now.

And as far as the bump,btt,bump posts, make a rule that it could only be done once every 12 - 24 hours or so. If it is observed to be more than that, the the entire post will be deleted. You do not have to take an overly active role in monitoring this, in fact some BBS software will look for this activety and disallow it. It would mostly be on the honor system, and a few mods per sale board would help too.

I would be glad to act as a moderator for one of the sale sections, as long as we had some clear clean rules to go by.

[ November 18, 2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: theJunker ]

[Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford]

The one thing that I really do not like about the for sale section is the constant bumping.

This has made the for sale section more of a sport for those that frequent the boards. It does not make it a usefull tool for other four wheelers that want to sell something but are not a board junkie.

For example:

I know several people that do not visit the boards as a hobby like many of us do. They have stuff that they want to sell. They visit the board just to post it and then do not frequent back to bump it, etc. Within a day their post is pushed so far down in the list that the item never gets seen and does not sell. So they never come back to post again because they veiw this place as a poor option for selling things.


I think one of the down falls of the local board is the mindset that the entire Colorado 4x4 public is on the board all day everyday. There are many people who would like to post stuff for sale but do not and will not take the time to fight off the constant bumping competition. They also may want to check in from time to time to see what is for sale but it takes so long to weed through all the BS posts to figure out if something is still for sale that they would rather not bother. Not to mention that the same 10 items always appear at the top of the list because of the bumping.

I personally think that the for sale section (both of them) would become more functional to a wider audience by limiting the replys.

It seems to me that all the people against the change fear that they will not be able to bump their stuff all day as a method of getting something noticed. The only reason you have to bump your stuff all day is becuase everyone else is doing it. Without any bumping items would stay in a good cronological order. I think this would make the boards more usefull.

I keep thinking about the Bulletin Board over at High Country 4x4. (you know the good old fashioned one that you actually "post" a note to) Could you imagine if you posted something there and every day you had to stop by to make sure no one covered over your post, moved it to the bottom etc. I have purchased items off that board that had been posted for a year. The item was still for sale but the post got buried so no one saw it.

[Big Dave]

I've noticed lately that there seem to be a considerably lesser amount of new items being posted for sale. I can't tell if it's just that it looks like less stuff because people aren't bumping their junk all the time or what.

Here's my proposed solution, pending that the software is capable of this.

- replies would not bump an item back to the top

- the original poster of the thread would be able to delete any posts in the thread, made by himself or another poster

That eliminates the constant btt'ing as well as puts the administrative "effort" in the seller's hands instead of board admins. It also solves the problem people have expressed about asking the seller questions and such, and IMO still solves the problems the FS forum has been having. I know JU's software was able to do this for a while, but not sure if the stuff here can.

[Grandpa Jeep]

Dave, I like that solution. That leaves the ability to reply there, but eliminate the bumping problem. Sounds like a good compromise to me.

[HaySeed77]

If I had time to read this entire thread, I would be fired... :confused:

I like the change, Keep up the good work Eric! graemlins/beer.gif

[dave@rokmen]

After seeing it for a while - I like it this new way... It is so much easier to see what is new - instead of sifting through all the bumps, legitimate or not.

If you are a seller then it is up to you to make sure your add is current - and is edited to reflect information you may have left out.. Selling something is a job - and has to be worked to get good results. Same with Buying - if you want the deal you have to contact the seller and actually put real effort towards getting it - not just add a reply saying - "I may be interestred - PM me.."

Anyway - just my 2 cents...

[Grandpa Jeep]

Well, I just cruised the For sale board for really the first time since the change and I have to say I definately do not like it. I found this post:

http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=007716

It looked promising, and I thought they might be CJ axles which I would be interested in, but since there wasn't much info provided I PMed the seller as suggested. I continued looking and found this post.

http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=007525

Which is obviously an older ad for the same thing. In this one though, questions have been asked and answered which also answers my questions. Had I seen this one first, I would not have sent the PM as I am not interested in wagoneer axles. Now at some point the seller is going to reply to me which wastes his time and I will reply that I'm not interested which further wastes mine. (BTW, is there any way to recall a PM?) Obviously the seller should have included details from the earlier ad but he didn't and from the first ad it fairly obvious that he doesn't even know what it is he has. Someone filled him in partically.

I really hope the ability to reply comes back, as I think this method is a PITA. graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[SNOWMAN]

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep:
Well, I just cruised the For sale board for really the first time since the change and I have to say I definately do not like it. I found this post:

http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=007716

It looked promising, and I thought they might be CJ axles which I would be interested in, but since there wasn't much info provided I PMed the seller as suggested. I continued looking and found this post.

http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=007525

Which is obviously an older ad for the same thing. In this one though, questions have been asked and answered which also answers my questions. Had I seen this one first, I would not have sent the PM as I am not interested in wagoneer axles. Now at some point the seller is going to reply to me which wastes his time and I will reply that I'm not interested which further wastes mine. (BTW, is there any way to recall a PM?) Obviously the seller should have included details from the earlier ad but he didn't and from the first ad it fairly obvious that he doesn't even know what it is he has. Someone filled him in partically.

I really hope the ability to reply comes back, as I think this method is a PITA. graemlins/thumbsdown.gif I'll second that. It sux that a handful of people ruined it for the rest of us but I must say that it's real cool that you offer us this site Eric.

I'm just gonna run my own for sale section in my sig line from now on. Is that legit trail boss? or is that like one giganto crosspost? lol graemlins/laughing.gif

graemlins/beer.gif

[whoosh]

I don't like it. More information was readily available when replies were permitted.

[Eric]

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep:
Well, I just cruised the For sale board for really the first time since the change and I have to say I definately do not like it. I found this post:First, thanks for finding the duplicate post. I missed it and was just about to delete both but the second link (first post) is a good example of how the previous setup did NOT work. Out of 14 replies, 7 were bumps, 2 were a "yes" and "dunno", two were guesses at what it is, one was a "how much", one was "come look at it", and only one actually contained additional info. Info that was not updated in the initial post so you had to find it within the discussion. Two PM's and an edit later and you're at the same point without all the other headroom. Not to mention you don't have to skim past all the bumps in the hopes of finding additional info buried deeper in the thread. Edit the first post so all of the info is right up front. Bonca, nothing personal intended by using your ad as an example. ALL of the posts used to look this way.


It looked promising, and I thought they might be CJ axles which I would be interested in, but since there wasn't much info provided I PMed the seller as suggested. I continued looking and found this post.

Which is obviously an older ad for the same thing. In this one though, questions have been asked and answered which also answers my questions. Had I seen this one first, I would not have sent the PM as I am not interested in wagoneer axles. I don't follow this. The new system doesn't work because you found the info in an older ad where the seller had also forgotten to provide all of the info? You PM'd him and he'll likely reply with your requested info. :confused:


Now at some point the seller is going to reply to me which wastes his timeGood, next time hopefully he'll list more info.


and I will reply that I'm not interested which further wastes mine. Only because you already know the answer. Once he replied a polite "no thanks" isn't asking too much. Is it?


(BTW, is there any way to recall a PM?) No, but you can send another one saying "nevermind".


I really hope the ability to reply comes back, as I think this method is a PITA. graemlins/thumbsdown.gif Sending a PM is a PITA? What you've just shown is that the old system is better because someone asked the question for you, but that's just as likely to happen in the new system. The ball is in the seller's court, if they don't provide enough info it's no harder to send a PM than it is to wade thru multiple bumps in the hopes of finding the answer you seek. If you don't find the answer you still have to ask, so now which was a PITA?

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your concern?

[Eric]

Originally posted by SNOWMAN:
I'm just gonna run my own for sale section in my sig line from now on. Is that legit trail boss?Sure, as long as your sig is under 4 lines (including any dash lines, you're at 5 lines right now graemlins/thefinger.gif ) Fwiw if this works for you it's an example of how the new system works. People see what you have for sale, they contact You, and You update your sig with info as necessary. Thanks for your vote in favor of the new system :D

[Camp]

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep:
I really hope the ability to reply comes back, as I think this method is a PITA. graemlins/thumbsdown.gif [/QB]I am not trying to single you out here just asking a question to better understand. What makes the PM or email process so much more of a pain than posting a reply to a thread? Either way, you still have to wait for the seller to check it to get your answer. Personally, if someone emails me, they are a lot likelier to get a timely response as I see my email all day long here at work and I don't get to check the board all the time.

[lafester]

what you have yet to respond to is the fact that this is a forum, and the interaction between members is lost with the new system. regardless of how well the new system works it takes away from the community of the forum.

there has been mention several times of new replies simply not bumping the ad. could you address this idea for us?

i think that would get rid of the ttt posts. to get rid of the posters just out to raise their "rank" would be to get rid of "ranks" all together as well as the post counter.

edit: looks like you took care of that one already!

thanks, chris

[Eric]

Originally posted by lafester:
what you have yet to respond to is the fact that this is a forum, and the interaction between members is lost with the new system. regardless of how well the new system works it takes away from the community of the forum.This assumes that the classified ads section was intended to be a forum. IMO it wasn't. If you hold an informative technical discussion in the classifieds this is a shame because most visit the General 4x4 section when looking for tech discussions. I know I wouldn't look for it in the classifieds anyway.


there has been mention several times of new replies simply not bumping the ad. could you address this idea for us? I'm happy to. This sounds like a good way to deal with the "bump" posts, but it doesn't address the clown replies. Those would still rely on a moderator to screen and delete (the user too if necessary). Also, without the ad being bumped it'd be hard to follow the discussions that you mentioned above. If the ad fell to page two or three you'd have to look there to see if there was an update to the discussion. Furthermore, say the user changes his price and would like to "repost" the ad to the top at the new price. To do so they have to delete their post, and the discussion along with it, and repost to the top. If it requires a moderator to screen the replies it seems no different than what we had before with the exception that the TTT posts are gone. Then when the seller does bump it to the top you lose all the other posts anyway. Fwiw the current software can't do what you're asking, and I don't know if the next one can or not, but it seems there are some holes that need addressed for it to be a viable solution.


to get rid of the posters just out to raise their "rank" would be to get rid of "ranks" all together as well as the post counter.

edit: looks like you took care of that one already!:D Seems to be working pretty good so far too graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[lafester]

while i dissagree with limiting "real" discussion on any forum (be it the intent of the administrator or not the for sale section was a forum)i thank you for listening to both sides of the argument.

thanks, chris

[ November 19, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: lafester ]

[Grandpa Jeep]

Originally posted by Camp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep:
I really hope the ability to reply comes back, as I think this method is a PITA. graemlins/thumbsdown.gif I am not trying to single you out here just asking a question to better understand. What makes the PM or email process so much more of a pain than posting a reply to a thread? Either way, you still have to wait for the seller to check it to get your answer. Personally, if someone emails me, they are a lot likelier to get a timely response as I see my email all day long here at work and I don't get to check the board all the time. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What makes it a pain is that had the former system been in place, I would have found the original ad (with an additional BTT or two) with my questions answered and I wouldn't have had to PM anyone at all and moved on. With the former system, there is a chance that someone may have already asked and the seller may have already answered the same question I had.

Furthermore, in this case CSP threw in some information that was helpfull that the seller didn't even know. Had a potential buyer not been able to post his question publicly (and the seller replying publicly that he didn't know the answer) CSP wouldn't have even known there was a problem and wouldn't have been able to help. Now while it's true that either the seller or buyer could have posted the question in the tech forum (and I'm sure he would have had it been an expensive item) It's just another step that's now necessary.

All this to fix a problem that I didn't feel was much of a problem. Like I said earlier, I don't spend that much in the For sale forum as I'm not really looking for anything at the moment, but was this really a problem? I've only seen one flame fest in For sale. Were they really that common?

[Joker]

Oliver,

You might as well give up on arguing your points since it seems like Eric finds a rebuttal for anything anyone says negative about what they dislike about the new policy.

Maybe we should just do it the old fashioned American way and VOTE on if we "LIKE" or "DISLIKE" the new policy, but since this site
is privately owned it may also be of no use since Eric IS the Trail Boss and may do as he see fit for HIS site. Which he has every right to do!

Oh...the DRAMA...... graemlins/crybaby2.gif graemlins/thefinger.gif

[theJunker]

Originally posted by Joker:

You might as well give up on arguing your points since it seems like Eric finds a rebuttal for anything anyone says negative about what they dislike about the new policy. Yep, I pretty much decided the same thing after I went back and re-read all the posts. It seems that the powers that be have already made up their mind on how it is going to be, so really the entire thread is moot.

I just really do not understand what the trouble was I guess. Were there that many people complaining about bad/stupid replies?

[Breck4x4[John]]

Originally posted by Joker:



Maybe we should just do it the old fashioned American way and VOTE on if we "LIKE" or "DISLIKE" the new policy, but since this site
is privately owned it may also be of no use since Eric IS the Trail Boss and may do as he see fit for HIS site. Which he has every right to do!

VOTE HERE:
http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000068
Eric stated at the time the poll was posted that it might be early (for the poll) but he would still be interested in the results.

[Camp]

Originally posted by theJunker:
Were there that many people complaining about bad/stupid replies? Yes, there was a lot of crap going on in the For Sale section. We as the moderators were getting rid of it as we could find it and were scanning the section quite frequently. That is very time consuming and as the rest of you, we have jobs to do during the day. The Classified are intended to be that, Classifieds, not a forum of discussion. People were posting losts of stuff in there that was taking away from the value of the ads. The rules were in place and readable by all but, some chose not to follow them and this is the current result. The beauty of the world is that you will never make everyone happy. graemlins/beer.gif

[Grandpa Jeep]

Originally posted by Joker:
Oliver,

You might as well give up on arguing your points since it seems like Eric finds a rebuttal for anything anyone says negative about what they dislike about the new policy.

Maybe we should just do it the old fashioned American way and VOTE on if we "LIKE" or "DISLIKE" the new policy, but since this site
is privately owned it may also be of no use since Eric IS the Trail Boss and may do as he see fit for HIS site. Which he has every right to do!

Oh...the DRAMA...... graemlins/crybaby2.gif graemlins/thefinger.gif I'm not argueing on Eric's right to do as he sees fit with the site, nor am I saying I'll quit using it because of the new policy. The new rules are workable, just not as convienent and this is still the best place to buy and sell things. I'm just voicing my opinion and I appreciate the fact that I'm being heard.

[Pawk]

An unwelcome and not needed action in my book.

[jumpinNrollin]

One thing I do like about the new policy is that I can find ads when I go back and look for them instead of them get pushed to the top or people changing the titles and BTTing back to the top. I have also noted that people are putting in more usefull information in their posts where before you had to read 1 or 2 pages to get all the info.

Yea, I miss some of the tech issues and help from others when the owner doesn't have the knowledge or experiance on what might work with what but, I do like not having to read all the other crap. Even if it opened back up I hope people stick to business.

[Eric]

Originally posted by ThatsSick:
When I contacted colorado4x4.org about why I could not post on the for sale section a simple explanation would do, not a dick head response. A "dickhead response"... I ask you to read the notices at the top of the forum and all of a sudden I'm a dickhead. graemlins/thumbsup.gif Thanks, happy to be of service :rolleyes: The reason is in bold text at the top of the forum, there's a sticky post in the forum which points you to additional info (this thread), there are 5 full pages of ads with 0 replies (hint, it's probably not just you), and there's a three page discussion on the topic (this thread) in the News forum. It's not like anybody is trying to hide anything from you, all you had to do was look around or at least ask politely. Fwiw I'm pleased to see that you finally read the rules of the forum and checked out the News section of CO4x4.

[ November 25, 2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Eric ]

[ThatsSick]

SO I have not used this site for a while and come to find out tonight I?m not missing out on the usual. When I contacted colorado4x4.org about why I could not post on the for sale section a simple explanation would do, not a dick head response. Were not all as holly as some, so there is no need for the helpful reminders. By the way, this sucks! But that is just my humble opinion, what do I know anyways! ;)

[casper]

Eric, maybe it's time you made money off this site, dump the .org and hire people to work it full time. If you're running out of space or whatever the computer jargon is, delete stuff off the main menu. Vendors section sucks. You can read more in a magazine. Other menus are worthless also. Take a poll.
This seems to be a turning point in Colorado4x4. Something needs to be established between Colorado4x4.org and Pirate4x4.
Good Luck.

[Joe O'Neil]

I recently ran into an issue that I believe is supported by the inabilty to post. I had PM'ed a seller, which none of you saw, to immediately respond to an ad. I expressed my sincere interest and we exchanged emails and phone calls to arrange payment and delivery (He told me it was mine). The seller sold the part to someone else. None of you saw any of this. There is no audit trail nothing. Without this "public record", sellers are able to reneg on agreements/arrangements without any concern that their exploits will ever be known. I would rather be able to see the transaction take place in view of the "public", in a post for all to see.

[Camp]

Nothing about the new policy changes the ability of the seller to renig or not to renig. If they chose to renig on the old set up, all they had to do was delete the thread. Then there is no public record that way either. That is why most people in that situation will post a thread explaining the problem in the Chit-Chat area so everyone knows. Yes, it is possible that someone would have saw it if you would have been able to post but, most for sale adds don't get enough views for that to matter. If they delete the tread it is gone. If you want some recourse to this problem, state your problem to the individual in a PM. Honesty is a human quality, not a function of the board :(

I do thank you for letting us know of the issue you had though. ;)

[ November 26, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Camp ]

[casper]

Iceman; I went back over a month in Chit Chat and found nothing pretaining to, For Sale - 4x4. I totally agree with Joe O'.
That is the most I've ever been on Chit Chat, today for about 45 minutes. The most interesting thing there was about Top Fuel.
Wake up!

[Camp]

Originally posted by casper:
Iceman; I went back over a month in Chit Chat and found nothing pretaining to, For Sale - 4x4. I totally agree with Joe O'.
That is the most I've ever been on Chit Chat, today for about 45 minutes. The most interesting thing there was about Top Fuel.
Wake up! Maybe that is because there has not been anybody reniging lately on there sales.

Oh and Casper, please enlighten me? What part was I not awake for, did I miss where it was the board's responibility to make people hold good on there word, give them a spine? Please, share this great wisdom I am missing :rolleyes:

[ November 30, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Camp ]

[casper]

Thought Joe 'O just talked about somebody reniging.
Have you tried to sell something and arranged a time and place to meet the person that promised to buy it and they never showed up? Or driven 600 miles round trip just to find out that what you were going to buy was not what was promised?
Do you really want others to fall into the same trap?
How are we supposed to find out about these guys if it isn't replied to in "For Sale - 4x4"?, Chit Chat ain't gonna cut it!
Why should we have to jump from one topic to another and which one are we supposed to look at?
Didn't mean to offend you but if you're really in Anartica I don't think you have a real grasp of what's happening on the mainland, probably not a lot of 4X parts being sold down there, at least to civilians.

[Eric]

Yes, he actually is in Antarctica. I agree with Camp, if someone is an ass during a transaction the last place you want to try to tell people is in that person's ad. Other than moderators, they're the only person able to delete the post and your comments along with it and then simply repost their ad. If you want to warn others about a dishonest seller then do so in a place that more people will look. Post it in Gen Chit Chat. However, be sure to present your case clearly and include as much info as possible. Posts which amount to "so and so sucks because I said so" are promptly deleted. If you're going to bash someone, be prepared to prove your case. You still have a means to warn others of dishonest sellers and, as a bonus, you have an opportunity to reach a greater audience.

Well the 2 weeks are up already. As I look thru the For Sale 4x4 section I see a dramatic change from what we had previously and IMO it's a change for the better. Gone are the abusive replies and fevered "bumps". Sellers appear to be including more detailed information about what they want to sell and how they prefer to be contacted. It's still somewhat chaotic since the ads are all lumped into a singe "4x4 Related" forum but that's a different issue that we'll be dealing with in the near future (subcatagories). As suggested previously we'll go ahead and take a poll so I can get a general feel for the community interest. The poll is not the decision process, however it IS a factor that I'll consider in the decision. Thank you for all of the constructive comments. I hope that we were able to find a solution to many of the concerns that were presented. Those of you who simply contend that "this sucks, I'll take my ads elsewhere"... well, hang on a sec while I get the door for you graemlins/thefinger.gif Buh Bye!

I'm going to close this thread as I create a new one for the poll. If there are any comments which have not been addressed thus far, please feel free to strike up a discussion at the poll.

:D graemlins/beer.gif