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BDT
August 25th, 2001, 12:22 PM
Just talked to a Teraflex rep at High Country's open house today, and according to them they didn't make a ZJ before 1996. smilies/rolleyes.gif My '95 must be an imposter. smilies/biggrin.gif The good news is that he said he's not sure, but he thinks all their ZJ products will still work on it. Yeah, I've got confidence in these guys. smilies/flipoff.gif

Explorerguy
August 25th, 2001, 02:20 PM
So how was High Country's open house? I didn't hear about it until this evening. Couple of my friends went.

So what do you think of the Terflex lift? My co-worker is still looking at getting a lift for his TJ.

BDT
August 25th, 2001, 04:39 PM
The open house was okay. Nothing great. More rigs for sale than anything else. And you'd think most of them were gold plated.

I just picked up a '95 ZJ and was hoping to get a good feel for what's out there for it, but got just the opposite. Seems like the whole 4x4 world has Wrangler on the brain. And the one guy who did have something for the ZJ (the Teraflex guy) didn't even know that they were made in '95? He even tried to argue about it with mine parked just 100' away.

I'm REALLY getting tired of the sport (if that's what you want to call it) turning into just a bunch of rich guys with rigs put together by other people. But don't get me on my soapbox.

Cap'n Bob
August 26th, 2001, 06:25 AM
I didn't hear about their open house either. You would think they would have sent a mailing to their current customer base.

Oh well, went Wheelin instead smilies/biggrin.gif

[ August 26, 2001: Message edited by: Cap'n Bob ]

dave@rokmen
August 26th, 2001, 01:50 PM
BDT,

There are Jeepers smilies/biggrin.gif and then there are Jeep Drivers...

Get on the soap box.. It will make an interesting topic... smilies/pissed.gif

BDT
August 26th, 2001, 03:13 PM
AMEN 5+!!!

I'm glad somebody can relate.

Taylormade
August 26th, 2001, 03:27 PM
Brad,
Did you sell the CJ yet? Just wondering. Talk at you later man. When we goin wheelin?
Keep on Jeepin.

Eric

Greg
August 26th, 2001, 03:35 PM
Hey BDT

I am noticing the same thing you are as for the wrangler comment. I just picked up a 96 ZJ, researching this was not as easy as it was for my TJs. Looking for body armor is the biggest headache.... smilies/mad.gif

mkbruin
August 27th, 2001, 05:16 AM
Well, the ZJ is a rarity to see lifted to be honest, however I thought that everyone knew the ZJ started production in 1993!

Jeeps are Built, not bought. and I'd better be doing the building myself when possible! I still don't know how to set backlash on gears, but I want to know.

I personally feel that things like avalanche engeneering is overkill and taking the fun out of the sport! the snipers and assasins are crossing the line between driver and technology.

Bill
August 28th, 2001, 09:51 AM
Let me start by saying I intend this post as a part of a serious and meaniful discussion and I don't mean it to be sarcastic or insulting in any way. I am truely interested in hearing what people think. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a flame war. (If I want that I'll go over to JU)

So are you saying that anyone with a less capable vehicle (like a Jeep Liberty or a stock Explorer) is a wannabe pozer but anyone with a more capable vehicle (like a Sniper or Assasin) is a sport wrecking extreamist? What line is they cross and where do they cross it?

[ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: Bill ]

imported_Chris J
August 28th, 2001, 10:24 AM
I think what he means is that these high dollar machines are too far away from the original sport. Having Joe Rich-boy show up in his $60k turn-key rig and watching him drive like a moron and not be able to fix his carnage is frustrating. Also frustrating is watching these same rigs compete in the same class as "real" jeeps in rockcrawling events. At least that's how I feel. I've got nothing but admiration for the guys who can design/fabricate these things on their own, but it is so far removed from my reality, that it just doesn't seem like four-wheelin as I know it.

Eric
August 28th, 2001, 11:03 AM
I'm no fan of $$$$ buggies like the Sniper but if that's what Joe Trendy wants then more power to him. The more people who are enjoy offroading (responsibly of course) the better. I can't afford one, I think it'd make the trails I run way too easy (boring), can't drive it on the street, not enough room for my smilies/beer.gif, etc. etc. etc. Lots of reasons why I don't want one, but who cares what I want? I don't care what you drive to the trail so long as it is appropriate, or at least close. Driving skills are way more important than equipment IMO.

BDT
August 28th, 2001, 03:41 PM
I agree to a point. I don't have anything against rich people in general or against guys with expensive rigs. It's just way too often that it happens to be a rich guy with an expensive rig that has no appreciation, or respect for that matter, for what's really there.

For instance, I'm talking to a guy with a pretty well built YJ and trying to ask him some technical questions about his setup and all he really knows is "Yeah, the guys at XXX OffRoad Shop did that for me. It cost about xxx bucks and works really great." At that point, I've lost most of my respect for him and really his rig.

For me, a lot of the passion comes from knowing just how much blood, sweat, and cursing really went into my rig. I don't care about the brand names or how much it cost. Did someone take the time to learn how a system (ie steering, suspension, cooling, whatever) really worked and then modify it, or did they just follow the crowd and bolt on the latest fad?

How's that for soapboxing a little?

Explorerguy
August 29th, 2001, 12:24 AM
We have a Ford Aerostar that we made into a 4X4 that we used to show and that was one thing I was pretty proud of is when you go ask people who did there paint or lift, etc. they would say this body shop or this mechanic, but when people ask me who did mine I was able to say "my dad and I did all of it."

I think you appreciate it a lot more when you put the work into it yourself. You get a lot closer to your vehicle after you have hit your knuckles a few times.
Plus if you are on the trail and you break something, you have a good chance of fixing it instead of being towed down and take it to the shop.

MonsterZ
August 29th, 2001, 02:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Explorerguy:
Plus if you are on the trail and you break something, you have a good chance of fixing it instead of being towed down and take it to the shop.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's the biggest part of it right there. There's nothing more frustrating than working on someones Wonder Rig up on the trail because they have no idea how to fix the expensive parts they just broke.

Eventually, if you actually 4-wheel, you're going to break something some day. Might as well build your rig yourself so you have a chance of field fixing it when it all goes wrong.

SamFromCO
August 29th, 2001, 07:40 AM
Can I join in here?

One good thing about the guys that bring the big bucks into the shops and say build me one. It keep the shops in business so that when I need a part or more rarely some work done that I can't handle, there is a shop there to go to. If they depended on me for their economic livelyhood they might get pretty hungry.

As far as the big bucks guys like Currie and Avalanche etc., just as it wouldn't be practical to own a fuel dragster or Indy car, I still think that they're cool {even if you can't drive them on the road}. The things that are learned from these rigs make the stuff that they make for mine better.

null"can't we all just get along" R. King

That my 2?

Sam

Rookie
August 29th, 2001, 03:28 PM
Also keep in perspective that these high doller rigs are creating a mainstream sport. Being more mainstream will atract more people to it, and will change peoples attitudes twords our sport. This will give us more power to fight the eco-terrorist that would like to see your 4x off the trails. smilies/wink.gif The none 4x world usually looks at us like we drive lifted rigs with big tires, without any more purpose than picking up chicks or potentially running over there little Saturn. smilies/tongue.gif

BDT
August 30th, 2001, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rookie:
Also keep in perspective that these high doller rigs are creating a mainstream sport. Being more mainstream will atract more people to it, and will change peoples attitudes twords our sport. This will give us more power to fight the eco-terrorist that would like to see your 4x off the trails. smilies/wink.gif The none 4x world usually looks at us like we drive lifted rigs with big tires, without any more purpose than picking up chicks or potentially running over there little Saturn. smilies/tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be careful with this logic. I'd venture to say that a large percentage of the attention the "sport" is going to get by going mainstream is going to be negative. This isn't exactly early baseball we're talking about.

I can remember when (and I'm only 28) nobody even noticed if you took your 4x4 into the back woods for a weekend outing, and the "sport" was nice and peaceful. Now everywhere you go it's jackasses dumping garbage (name a trail that doesn't have garbage on it), shooting up signs, and tearing up private property. It's no different than driving down I-25. Who gets the attention, the guy driving peacefully and respectfully or the guy driving like an idiot who causes a 10 car pile-up? If just a few bad apples can ruin the whole barrel, than what good can it do to add more bad apples to a bigger barrel?

How do we ensure that the right kind of people are attracted to the sport (I hate using that word)? Treading Lightly just hasn't seemed to be overly contageous.

Rookie
August 30th, 2001, 02:13 PM
For the last 18 years I have been off roading land closures and Idiots have always been here. Trash dropping, gun weilding people are not new thing. With more people involved in the activity, brings more support for the Blue ribbon coalition, tread lightly and orginized off road use. If you think the greenies are going to stop their activities to close trails because there are less of us ..... well I hope that is not the general thinking. Wheelers that compete in sanctioned off road events would concider it a sport, however I'am sure that many people concider wheeling only recreational.

Bill
August 31st, 2001, 06:29 AM
Well, I am no expert on four wheeling but I'm not a newbie either. I certainly still have a lot to learn but I think I also have a lot to give. I love four wheeling and I love the outdoors but I don't wrench and, truth be told I don't want to. I don't enjoy skinned knuckles or grease under my fingernails. I get easily frustrated when that bolt I have to get to is up around behind that other thingie where you can hardly reach and I have other things I'd rather do with my time.

I can see the point that maybe I don't deserve as much respct as someone who can fab a super trail rig out of a Toyata Corolla with his on board welder but don't discount me entirely or assume I don't apreciate the mechanical marvels of a well built rig.

I'm not the guy to ask if you have mechanical questions but I am an adequate (and some day might become a good) driver. I know and remember lots of trails. I love maps and book and study then a lot. So I might be a guy to talk to about where to 'wheel or to organize a run. Each of us has different areas of expetise to contibute to our hobby.

BDT
August 31st, 2001, 07:16 AM
Way to go Bill, now you've gone and made me feel bad.

You're probably the exact kind of newbie the sport needs. I guess I've just personally encountered a couple too many jerks that have bad attitudes or egos or whatever.

You, on the other hand, are probably the kind of guy I need to meet more often. Most likely, I'm just a victim of circumstance and have happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time too often. I'm sure I've started to develop generalizations that are based way too much on my own personal experiences.

For that I apologize. Now let's all hug and wheel!

Daren
September 5th, 2001, 06:41 AM
I agree with what Bill had to say. I may not know all of the ins and outs of my rig but I do understand how most of them work and am intrested in learning how to repair them when the time comes. smilies/biggrin.gif I am very greatfull to all of the people that have helped me on the trail and here on this board in learning more about my rig and this hobby. I look forward to learning more each time I go wheeling and want to be able to help others work on their rigs so I can learn how to fix what I've broken.

Thanks for the chance to rant...

jsbakke
September 5th, 2001, 12:21 PM
I would agree with Bill. I don't know much about vehicles. I have paid $$$ for my truck, but I still feel an appreciation for it, even if I did not build it. I love the outdoors, and that's what I like about 4 wheeling. I want to enjoy the scenery and the peace and quiet.

mike c
September 5th, 2001, 03:53 PM
Here's my $.02; I own three trucks, all are works in progrss that will never be done, all three have been modified by me for cheap or free, and two of them most people would call "stock" due to the lack of lifts, lockers ect. BUT all of them are fun, funtional and reliable. All of them have gone place less experiances drivers in better prepared rigs couldn't, and made it back in one piece. If i could afford a Sniper i'd get one, but i can't so i bought a hacked up old jeep to build for fun so i can drive my other trucks to work mondays.. We need to welcome anyone with interest to our "sport"- whether they've never been off road or are veterans that have never been on an organized run. I've never run into these "rich 4xsnobs" but i've scammed my way into a Land Rover owners offroad driving class this weekend so i'm sure i'm only a few days away.... smilies/rolleyes.gif Anyway, remember the golden rule, and always pick up trash- even if it's not yours. MC See ya in the the hills. smilies/cool.gif

Crow Killer
September 6th, 2001, 11:17 AM
Great topic!

As I read through the responses about modifications, and the number of folks that don't know how to work on their rig and don't want to, surprised me a bit.

To those that don't want to work on their own vehicle, what would you do if others on the trail with you didn't help you fix it? Is it fair to those that wheel with you to force them to do your repairs for you since you don't know how to fix it?

I don't know a single wheeler that would leave another vehicle stranded unless absolutly necessary, but the thought has crossed my mind after wheeling with some folks that have no idea whatsoever what to do when their vehicle breaks.

It really pushes the all for one, one for all concept to the limit when you go wheeling in potentially damaging environments and have to not only take care of your own equipment, but someone else's too.

The real problem is when it happens time and time again. You may get to the point that people don't want to go with you anymore if you constantly break and have no idea what to do or the tools to even fix a loose bolt.

jsbakke
September 6th, 2001, 05:04 PM
If people don't want to go with me, fine.

mike c
September 6th, 2001, 05:24 PM
Spend more money on your stereo, and less on off-road improvements ! smilies/crybaby.gif

Come play, roll that piece of s*&t, weld some steel to it, dent it, break it- when were you stuck last, and did you get out on your own? Just curious. smilies/tongue.gif

Bill
September 10th, 2001, 09:29 AM
Crow Killer:

You bring up a good point. I probably do relay more on the goodness of others than someone who is a good wrench. To minimize my mooching I 'wheel mostly with people I know don't mind helping me, I keep my vehicle well maintained and prepped, I try not to take a lot of unnessessary risk ('wheel within my limits. I also try to make up for it by contributing as much as I can to the group in the areas I am good at. I have had very little breakage and never had to rely on a stranger for a major trail repair. If ever I do (which will probably happen someday) I will be more than willing to pay them a fair rate for their time and expertice.

Licearenice
September 23rd, 2001, 09:41 PM
As far as I go, I just got out of high school, I know very little about mechanics, but I try. Me and my friends put a lift on a yj and it took 10 hours with six guys. I bought an XJ and I wasn't sure about the whole control arm adjustment thing so I paid 4wheel parts to put it on, but I earned every cent makin 10 bucks an hour, so I feel as though I have blood sweat and tears into it. But don't get me wrong, I've wrenched a little, I just left the big stuff to people who knew what they were doing. Also I admit I'm young and materialistic, I want a truck that looks good. So half of my motivation is that the tires look beefy, etc. However, I wheel it hard, and fix it when it breaks, which seems to be more often than not. My friends and I are all first generation wheelers, so we figure it out as we go along. BUT, I'd buy a sniper if I had the money, and I'm all for cheap homemade upgrades. Call me crazy, but I love wheelin no matter what it's in smilies/biggrin.gif