PDA

View Full Version : This Cops life will never be the same....



DaleD
March 13th, 2014, 10:32 PM
Dashcam Shows Deputy Shooting 70-Year-Old Man at Traffic Stop But What Cop Did Next Might Be the Biggest Shock

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/13/dashcam-shows-deputy-shooting-70-year-old-man-at-traffic-stop-but-what-cop-did-next-might-be-the-biggest-shock/

Gotta watch the dashcam vid all the way...I feel super bad for this guy. He will live with this for ever.

Goldfinger
March 13th, 2014, 11:19 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Black cop shoots white NASCAR fan! Where's Jesse and Al to scream racism?

rondog
March 14th, 2014, 01:29 AM
Who gives a shit about that trigger happy cop? I hope he wakes up screaming every hour of every night for the rest of his life! "Unfortunate" incident my ass. Identify the threat before you start shooting, dipshit.

Incidents of cops shooting innocent unarmed people are too damned frequent.

al24
March 14th, 2014, 06:33 AM
Dashcam Shows Deputy Shooting 70-Year-Old Man at Traffic Stop But What Cop Did Next Might Be the Biggest Shock

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/13/dashcam-shows-deputy-shooting-70-year-old-man-at-traffic-stop-but-what-cop-did-next-might-be-the-biggest-shock/

Gotta watch the dashcam vid all the way...I feel super bad for this guy. He will live with this for ever.

As opposed to the guy he shot.

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 06:50 AM
Thats pretty harsh. Its not like he walked up to some random stranger in the park and shot them. In a traffic stop situation you have no clue who you are pulling over or what they may have/have not done. Most of the time the general public stays in there vehicle. It gives the officer time to access the situation. Unfortunately this guy getting pulled over getting, out of his truck, proceeding towards the officer, and then grabbing his cane (which could look like a weapon that goes bang) looks like a act of aggression. The officer had seconds to consider his course of action and then follow through. If he didnt he could have been laying on the side of the road bleeding to death while the shooter drove away with his hostage.

And yes I also agree had the cop been white and the old man black people would have been screaming the racist card.

SamFromCO
March 14th, 2014, 06:55 AM
http://my.firedoglake.com/acmerecords/files/2013/11/barney-fife-and-his-bullet.jpg

mckinney
March 14th, 2014, 07:21 AM
http://my.firedoglake.com/acmerecords/files/2013/11/barney-fife-and-his-bullet.jpg

Yup, sorry but the police officer shot an old man with a cane! When he was pulling it out of the truck the cop should have clearly seen that was not a rifle. I reconized what it was as he was pulling it out, why could the cop not see that when he had better visability than that cam provided.

scottycards
March 14th, 2014, 07:40 AM
7:30PM. Probably on their way home from bingo, after hitting Golden Corral for the early-bird special.

What the **** has society come to?

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 07:42 AM
What the **** has society come to?

I have been asking the same for a long time.

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 07:58 AM
At night with the strobes going I doubt he had much better visability. Its easy to watch the footage knowing its an old man and a cane and judge. But in the actual situation it would be a totally differen deal. Again approaching the cruiser is considered an act of aggression.

vb
March 14th, 2014, 08:03 AM
why would approaching a car be considered an act of aggression?.

vb
March 14th, 2014, 08:07 AM
this cop was completely reckless for acting before he knew the age and intent of the person that he stopped. the fact that this guy was the age that he was even makes the crime much worse... there is no such thing as an unfortunate accident.

I can even point to a specific case where a jury already decided exactly this!

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 08:11 AM
I reconized what it was as he was pulling it out, why could the cop not see that when he had better visability than that cam provided.

The hell you can! You only knew it was a cane from reading the article and then seeing it after the fact. Look at these images from the video of the guy picking it up off the truck and pointing it at the cop.

Totally tragic, but you probably shouldn't jump out of your car and point a long wooden rifle like object towards cops. Costly mistakes on both parties.

The guy got out of his truck WITHOUT the cane. He retrieves it from what looks like the top of the toolbox and SWINGS it around towards the back of the truck, pointing it at the cop, when he picks it up.

Here is the first image of him reaching for it.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2802/13147215633_c4f2a23a69_h.jpg

Starting to pick up the handle. Look like a cane yet?

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2802/13147215633_c4f2a23a69_h.jpg

Pulling it back towards himself.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2802/13147215633_c4f2a23a69_h.jpg

Tip just swung into the air.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7427/13147389664_092ff0d4ca_h.jpg

Now the tip is swinging around to point towards the cop. Entire cane is horizontal but low slung.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7427/13147389664_092ff0d4ca_h.jpg

This seems to be the only moment that the whole thing is visible up in the air and it last far less than a second cause its in motion.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3684/13147398194_6980797c0d_h.jpg

Now its pointed straight at the cop like a shotgun!! Which is when the first shot seem to be fired.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3684/13147398194_6980797c0d_h.jpg


Where exactly in here is it totally clear that its a cane??!!! You need to go watch this sequence in real time. It goes by VERY VERY quickly from him picking it up off the back of the truck to pointing it at the cop. Also need to consider that the cops view is not the same angle as the dash cam.

If you watch ONLY the portion of the video before the shooting the guys actions are similar to picking up a long rifle and swinging it around. Its ONLY AFTER its been pointed at the cop that it swings down to the ground like a cane. Easy to armchair quarterback by watching video of things that happened AFTER a decision had to be made.

colombiapunk
March 14th, 2014, 08:15 AM
I always assume in traffic stops that the cop is wired, high strung and trigger happy (like a coked out paranoid thug). From the moment I pull over I make it my every goal to put the cop at ease and defuse the situation. I think that's a wise way for most everyone to behave.

In the world we live in, I think it's key to survival.

Although tragic, I think this is to be expected. The guy got out of his car... that's a big no, no.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 08:20 AM
this cop was completely reckless for acting before he knew the age and intent of the person that he stopped. the fact that this guy was the age that he was even makes the crime much worse... there is no such thing as an unfortunate accident.

I can even point to a specific case where a jury already decided exactly this!

WTF does age have to do with it? A 70 year old can pull a trigger just as well as an 18 year old!!

There are many cases of people older than 70 killing people!!
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/12/woman_98_charge.html

As a matter of fact, the incidence of metal illness goes up and people become a danger to themselves and others.


There are many cases of "suicide by cop" where people can't seem to commit suicide themselves so they go out and point a gun at a cop hoping the cop will do it for them. This actually happens more often than you would think with the elderly!


Also, at this point, no contact Ana's been made. He doesn't know the age! You are also suggesting he wait until his head has been blown off first to see if the guys intent was to kill him?

This was a tragic incident. The article didn't say the guy died, unless other have more info. So they will both probably learn from it.

Its oblivious the cop didn't want to hurt the old man, just responding to what he thought he saw as a threat to his own life! Which so many talk about using their guns to defend themselves around here! But jump on cop bashing when cops try to defend themselves. Unfortunately it wasn't clear lighting....so what do you think the other options were?

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 08:28 AM
Why didn't the cop tell him to get back in his car?

Why didn't the cop tell him to drop the "gun"?

Bad cop no doughnut.

cheftyler
March 14th, 2014, 08:36 AM
Why didn't the cop tell him to get back in his car?

Why didn't the cop tell him to drop the "gun"?

Bad cop no doughnut.

The cop did yell at him to drop the gun...after he had fired several (poorly aimed) shots.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 08:44 AM
Why didn't the cop tell him to get back in his car?

Why didn't the cop tell him to drop the "gun"?

Bad cop no doughnut.


I'm only guessing here.....the cop probably just got stopped and the guy was half way out of his car already. So her he cop was half a step behind him trying to get out of his own car so that he could tell him to get back in his car!

Then tried to send himself to what he thought was as threat before every having a chance to tell him to drop anything!

Basically, it just happened too fast.

SamFromCO
March 14th, 2014, 08:44 AM
Where exactly in here is it totally clear that its a cane??!!!

Why don't you post some fuzzy pics from a dash cam and make believe that this is what the cop is seeing with his own eyes from 30' away. Oh wait, you did.

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 08:47 AM
I pull my keys from the ignition, lay them on my dash board, put my window down, and place both hands on the upper part of my steering wheel. Dont even reach for the glove box until they ask for my paperwork.

I see this both ways. Old man probably thought he was being helpful getting out and meeting the officer. Or...he couldve been grabbing the cane for some whoop ass. Who knows.

Po po had options. He was still by his vehicle. Taking cover behind the door and screaming for him to drop his weapon wouldve sufficed. Even if it had been a gun, the officer had time to take a defensive position rather than offense.

Gonna have to rule against said officer if my opinion matters at all. I feel for the man. He fawked up. Bad. I doubt he intended to do something so horrific. We're all human, but he jumped the gun. Period. His badge needs to be revoked, and he can live out his days with that on his conscience. Punishment enough IMHO.

Heart goes out to the old guys family. Damn.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 08:49 AM
Why don't you post some fuzzy pics from a dash cam and make believe that this is what the cop is seeing with his own eyes from 30' away. Oh wait, you did.


Fail!

I was replying to the post where someone commenting that "it was clear to them that it was a cane" (which the other poster was obviously watching the dash cam video)

At the end of the post I also pointed out that the cops view would be different!

I never said that this is exactly what the cop saw, his view may have been better or worse!

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 08:50 AM
I'll also thrown in that in a night time setting, the cop cars headlights will inhibit good view and focus of any assailant. If you can't see, you're not nearly as lethal. Hence why po po jad options. Duck and cover behind cruiser. Squat behind door. One shot gets fired and most likely misses. That's when the cop can bring the rain guilt and question free.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 08:52 AM
Po po had options. He was still by his vehicle. Taking cover behind the door and screaming for him to drop his weapon wouldve sufficed. Even if it had been a gun, the officer had time to take a defensive position rather than offense.

n.

Contrary to popular movies, car doors and windshields are NOT BULLET PROOF!

Car doors are NOT cover, they are only(barely) concealment! There is also no room to "get down" inside the front of a patrol car to hide behind the engine. Which would only give an assailant the opportunity to walk over and shoot you while you lay there hiding.

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 08:58 AM
Contrary to popular movies, car doors and windshields are NOT BULLET PROOF!

Car doors are NOT cover, they are only(barely) concealment! There is also no room to "get down" inside the front of a patrol car to hide behind the engine. Which would only give an assailant the opportunity to walk over and shoot you while you lay there hiding.

I wouldn't have shot the guy. I'll leave it at that. Mightve rendered me dead or an old guy wouldve slept in his bead that night. I respect it couldve gone both ways. I will assume a gun fight is about to ensue and I'll hit the deck. From there its up to time and fate. I whole heartedly believe this officer shot before he had sufficient data to do so. He shouldve been on the defense the second the guy got out of the truck.

You argue the point of the cane. What if the man had a pistol in the back of his pants? At that point someone merely exiting their vehicle is threat enough to shoot them.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 09:03 AM
You argue the point of the cane. What if the man had a pistol in the back of his pants? At that point someone merely exiting their vehicle is threat enough to shoot them.


NO IT'S NOT!!

Having a gun is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than POINTING IT AT AN OFFICER, which is what this officer "thought" he saw!

He didn't simply think he "saw a guy with a shotgun" he thought he "saw a guy with a shotgun POINT THE GUN AT HIM"!

Big difference!

Do you guys remember the 1998 killing of a Colordo state Trooper near Cortez? He didn't even get a chance to get out of his car before they got out of a truck and filled the patrol car with bullets!

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 09:07 AM
NO IT'S NOT!!

Having a gun is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than POINTING IT AT AN OFFICER, which is what this officer "thought" he saw!

He didn't simply think he "saw a guy with a shotgun" he thought he "saw a guy with a shotgun POINT THE GUN AT HIM"!

Big difference!

Do you guys remember the 1998 killing of a Colordo state Trooper near Cortez? He didn't even get a chance to get out of his car before they got out of a truck and filled the patrol car with bullets!

Simmer down man. No need to get excitable. ;)

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 09:08 AM
Simmer down man. No need to get excitable. ;)

Who's excited?

I was highlighting important text. Since so many here seem to speed read and miss the key words!

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 09:15 AM
Seriously thought. How hard is it to follow the one rule of a traffics stop that everyone knows by now? "Stay in the car!"

At 70 this guy should have this one figured out!


Following this simple rule would have avoided the confusion about the cane!

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 09:15 AM
Who's excited?

I was highlighting important text. Since so many here seem to speed read and miss the key words!

I don't know! Maybe its your over use of CAPITALIZATION AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!

:flipoff2:

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 09:16 AM
I don't know! Maybe its your over use of CAPITALIZATION AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!

:flipoff2:


Only when people can't read them the normal way:flipoff2:

Seriously, you suggesting that shooting someone for simply having a gun being the same as shooting someone for pointing one at you requires some highlighting and exclamation points. That is a very serious difference.

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 09:26 AM
Only when people can't read them the normal way:flipoff2:

Seriously, you suggesting that shooting someone for simply having a gun being the same as shooting someone for pointing one at you requires some highlighting and exclamation points. That is a very serious difference.

How was I not reading what you said correctly? Seems all I did was state my stance and you went all exclamation pointy on me. I have feelings ya know. :flipoff2:

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 09:31 AM
Sorry, it was only meant to highlight, not a "yelling".


The first thing people need to do in a traffic stop is convince the cops that they are not the serial killer militant plotting to kill all cops! Easiest way to do this is to stay in your car and put your hands where the cop can see them!

Probably the worst way to do this is on a dark highway is to hop out of your car and swing a big stick around, pointing it towards the cop!

scottycards
March 14th, 2014, 09:39 AM
The first thing people need to do in a traffic stop is convince the cops that they are not the serial killer militant plotting to kill all cops!

Really?

Is that how we operate in today's society? Assume everyone is a raving madman prior to any investigation? Even for a simple traffic stop of an older person?

I'd think that if you're a cop and that's the mentality you carry with you on the job everyday, there's probably another profession you should be in.

Seriously messed up, IMO. Like, beyond repair messed up.

Our world needs a healthy press of the Reset button.

Don S
March 14th, 2014, 09:45 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Black cop shoots white NASCAR fan! Where's Jesse and Al to scream racism?
..

I’m sure glad it happened that way… if it had to happen.
If it had happened the other way we would be hearing about it every day for a solid year and then the anniversary of it forever after.
I’m willing to forgive and sooner or later forget but the media is not…

Have a good one.. Don S..

bsaunder
March 14th, 2014, 09:47 AM
Unfortunately, yes, with the rate that cops are getting shot at, they do have to assume that someone acting out of the ordinary that picks up a stick like object and points it at them is intending harm to that officer.

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 09:58 AM
Seriously thought. How hard is it to follow the one rule of a traffics stop that everyone knows by now? "Stay in the car!"

At 70 this guy should have this one figured out!

Where is that rule written? When I was growing up, and this guy was a lot older, we were taught to get out of the car and meet the cop between the cars. This guy might not have been pulled over for decades and still thought that was the correct thing to do.

These threads always bring the lulz though, especially with Cole saying cops never, ever, not even in a million years make a bad choice or decision and others saying the opposite.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 09:59 AM
Really?

Is that how we operate in today's society? Assume everyone is a raving madman prior to any investigation? Even for a simple traffic stop of an older person?

I'd think that if you're a cop and that's the mentality you carry with you on the job everyday, there's probably another profession you should be in.

Seriously messed up, IMO. Like, beyond repair messed up.

Our world needs a healthy press of the Reset button.

Unfortunately that is the case!

You must approach with caution until you know the situation is safe! Impossible to do it the other way around! Remember that there is a reason they were being contacted in the first place. No such thing as a "simple traffic stop" until it's done and gone.

This really is no different than checking the depth of a stream before crossing or looking over the edge of a cliff before jumping off. The cop/person simply needs to make sure its safe first.

For the people involved, the best way to make sure everyone is safe is to simply stay in your car until contacted!

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 10:01 AM
Unfortunately, yes, with the rate that cops are getting shot at, they do have to assume that someone acting out of the ordinary that picks up a stick like object and points it at them is intending harm to that officer.

What "rate" are cops really getting shot at during routine traffic stops? I'm guessing it's an incredibly small rate. Of course, "Cop Makes Routine Traffic Stop And Isn't Shot At" doesn't make for a good news story, but that's how the vast majority of traffic stops go down.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 10:01 AM
These threads always bring the lulz though, especially with Cole saying cops never, ever, not even in a million years make a bad choice or decision and others saying the opposite.


I've never said anything of the like Steve, ever!

I only step in to point out the facts of the situation that are often glossed over with emotion, speed reading and media spin!

Proof of this is the fact that you seem to think I've said such things that I've never said!

scottycards
March 14th, 2014, 10:08 AM
Yeah, I too thought it was the norm years ago for people to get out of their cars during stops.

I remember my Dad telling me that.

Maybe young officer wasn't aware that older people might still think it's routine behavior to get out and not expect to get shot.

Still think that if you're going to work assuming everyone is a killer, you're in the wrong profession. Maybe that's why people hate cops so much. I don't tend to like people who assume the worst before meeting me, either.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 10:16 AM
I don't tend to like people who assume the worst before meeting me, either.


How is this any different than a doctor putting on gloves before examining you to see if you have an infectious disease? Should he just assume you are safe until he contracts the disease himself first?

Or a firefighter, construction worker, building inspector putting an a helmet before seeing if the roof falls on their head?

The fact is that people hurt/kill cops. That is the specific risk in that job. So in order to be safe people must be approached with caution until they know the situation is safe.


What if you saw this guy in a traffic stop? Looks normal and safe enough right? It was only for a tail light out...so routine right?

http://video.foxnews.com/thumbnails/080411/640/360/080411_al_bundy_640.jpg

Was even a law student!(a guy with a bow tie can't be harmful!)

http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/b/bundy/bundy301.jpg


He attacked and tried to kill the officer that stopped him! Why? Because this is Ted Bundy the serial killer that had already killed 36 other people!

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 10:29 AM
OMG.

Need more proof of shoot before you know WTF?

Here is a good example

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2246447/83082912.jpg

No doughnuts for you.

BumperMan
March 14th, 2014, 10:29 AM
I gotta side with Cole on this one. Most of the dead goats, water bottles etc I drove by in Iraq and Afghanistan were not IEDs, but you still treat each one as if it is. When your survival is challenged on a daily basis, your level of awareness comes up. Based on the info he had at the time, the officer had to take action.

A few points to emphasize. Cover behind the door is not even close to cover.
"Poorly aimed shots" Dark, long distance from a position of cover is a hard way to shoot accuratly. This is not punching holes in paper from 7m on the range.
STAY IN YOUR CAR!!! Steve, I understand your point about things changing, but somewhere over time, you have learned to stay in your car. Sadly this gentleman had not learned that yet.

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 10:33 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-killed/
http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/03/13/55671.htm

Want more? About 41,200,000 results (0.34 seconds) from google

It was a bad shoot by a cop that needed better training or ignored what training he had. Way to commonplace IMO.

Quick Draw
March 14th, 2014, 10:33 AM
I'm going to side with the cop here. And maybe it's because I know several cops... or because the officer in Loveland that was shot just a few weeks ago is still fresh in my mind. But they have a damn scary job sometimes. They are forced to make decisions in an instant to survive, sometimes without all of the information. Did this guy do everything right? No, of course not. But I'm going to cut him some slack because not one of us was standing in his shoes, seeing what he saw.

Rando
March 14th, 2014, 10:42 AM
Nothing new unfortunately. In the early 90's I remember A truck driver was shot and killed by a NM state cop just outside Albuquerque on 40 when he got out of his truck holding a metal log book holder. Cops these days are all about us against them. Them being us citizens. Every body is guilty of something. Arrest first let the court sort it out later. God help you if you fight back against a cop dog biting the shit out of you, yet they feel free to kill a citizens pet at if they are the slightest bit uncertain if it's aggressive or not. It's like those guys riding bikes with the obnoxious flashing front head light. If you're so paranoid something bad might happen maybe you shouldn't do it...

RWPOTTER
March 14th, 2014, 10:43 AM
"Concealment" behind the door is not even close to cover.


FIFY...I get allot of giggles watching movies where the hero hides behind things that only offer concealment.

I watched the video without reading the story first....I did not immediately think it was a gun he was pulling out, and was wondering what the guy had done before pulling over to make the cop start shooting so quick.

After reading the story, I would like to think I would have waited a little longer before reacting. In this case it may have broken the chain of events....or not. If it was a gun I could be dead for not reacting.

I'm not in the cops shoes...and placing myself in them now...is only speculation at best.

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 10:52 AM
How is this any different than a doctor putting on gloves before examining you to see if you have an infectious disease? Should he just assume you are safe until he contracts the disease himself first?

Or a firefighter, construction worker, building inspector putting an a helmet before seeing if the roof falls on their head?

The fact is that people hurt/kill cops. That is the specific risk in that job. So in order to be safe people must be approached with caution until they know the situation is safe.


What if you saw this guy in a traffic stop? Looks normal and safe enough right? It was only for a tail light out...so routine right?

http://video.foxnews.com/thumbnails/080411/640/360/080411_al_bundy_640.jpg

Was even a law student!(a guy with a bow tie can't be harmful!)

http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/b/bundy/bundy301.jpg


He attacked and tried to kill the officer that stopped him! Why? Because this is Ted Bundy the serial killer that had already killed 36 other people!


LOL, seriously? A quick Google search says that there are ~18 million or so traffic stops annually in the U.S. How many result in any form of violence or attack against the cop? The odds of that happening in a cop's career is barely above zero. Cops being careful is one thing. Cops thinking every person pulled over is Ted Bundy with a gun is so far beyond stupid it's laughable.

And really, comparing IEDs in the Middle East to routine traffic stops in the U.S? C'mon guys, it's getting beyond bizzare around here now.

bsaunder
March 14th, 2014, 10:53 AM
What "rate" are cops really getting shot at during routine traffic stops? I'm guessing it's an incredibly small rate. Of course, "Cop Makes Routine Traffic Stop And Isn't Shot At" doesn't make for a good news story, but that's how the vast majority of traffic stops go down.

Bad statement on my part as I don't know and honest answer is I'm not going to take the time to research for an exact number.

My comment is based on conversations with 5 good friends of mine that are cops either here in Denver or down in NM. For 4 of them, the only times they have been shot at have been when they pulled someone over and that person got out of their car. The other works the gang unit in Denver, so he's always getting shot at.

All mentioned that nation wide, they get tons of training for how to stay safe and threat assessment. The #1 situation being taught to be careful about is the "routine" traffic stop. - assumptions can be bad, but I'd assume that if it's regarded as the #1 situation where an officer needs to be worried about their safety, that there are actual reasons behind it.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 10:55 AM
LOL, seriously? A quick Google search says that there are ~18 million or so traffic stops annually in the U.S. How many result in any form of violence or attack against the cop? The odds of that happening in a cop's career is barely above zero. Cops being careful is one thing. Cops thinking every person pulled over is Ted Bundy with a gun is so far beyond stupid it's laughable.

And really, comparing IEDs in the Middle East to routine traffic stops in the U.S? C'mon guys, it's getting beyond bizzare around here now.


You are looking at the odds wrong. Either the person is going to hurt you or not! It's that simple. Taking a few seconds to be cautious is all it takes.

You are acting like some one said to shoot first and ask questions later. All we are talking about is staying in your car until the cop contacts you. Seems like a simple enough way to make sure everyone is safe.

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 10:57 AM
You are looking at the odds wrong. Either the person is going to hurt you or not! It's that simple. Taking a few seconds to be cautious is all it takes.

You are acting like some one said to shoot first and ask questions later.
That's what Mr. GoodGuy copper did isn't it? He shot first and asked or I should say begged forgiveness after.

Do you really think this was a good shoot?

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 11:05 AM
You are looking at the odds wrong. Either the person is going to hurt you or not! It's that simple. Taking a few seconds to be cautious is all it takes.

You are acting like some one said to shoot first and ask questions later. All we are talking about is staying in your car until the cop contacts you. Seems like a simple enough way to make sure everyone is safe.

Cautious = good.

Trigger happy = bad.

If you should absolutely, always and forever stay in your car if pulled over it should be a law. It's not. People shouldn't be shot and killed for doing something that someone else thinks is a good idea but not a requirement or law.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 11:07 AM
That's what Mr. GoodGuy copper did isn't it? He shot first and asked or I should say begged forgiveness after.

Do you really think this was a good shoot?


He didn't really "shoot first" without any info. The guy got out of his car and picked up what the cop thought was a shotgun and pointed it at him! The shoot was a reaction to the action and information the cop had at the time!

It turned out after that to be a bad decision by both parties.

Its hard to say what the cop saw/didn't see/thought he saw to think his life was in danger. According to the video, it does look like a potential shotgun being aimed at the cop!

Its easy to say "don't shoot" but he thought his own life was in danger! Wouldn't you shoot if you thought your life was in danger?

The problem with these threads is that everyone judges them with the luxury of hindsight and the information that came out after.

Could the cop have waited? Sure. Would he be dead? Not in this case, but what if it had been a real gun? That is always the risk.

Law enforcement has tried to avoid these situations by having the driver stay in the car. Its safer for everyone. This situation is a perfect example. If the driver had stayed in the car none of this would have happened.


What would you suggest to make a traffic stop safer and avoid the risks and possible confusions?

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 11:11 AM
Why do you want to get out of your car on the side of the road Steve? It's far safer and more comfortable to just stay seated!

bsaunder
March 14th, 2014, 11:13 AM
Cautious = good.

Trigger happy = bad.

If you should absolutely, always and forever stay in your car if pulled over it should be a law. It's not. People shouldn't be shot and killed for doing something that someone else thinks is a good idea but not a requirement or law.

Night time = already cautious
Getting out of car = cautious
Walking towards cop car = cautious

---

Reaching for something on/in back of truck while approaching cop car = getting into danger area

Grabbing long stick like thing and removing from back of truck (or back seat, truck, etc) = really getting into danger area

Pointing said stick like thing at cop = pretty much at full alert (and even my Grandparents would say is stupid)

Holding stick like thing with two hands while pointing at cop = very tense situation and likely considered suicide by cop by many.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 11:14 AM
Yep...odds are low Steve.


http://www.krdo.com/news/loveland-officer-shot-during-traffic-stop/24772462

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 11:21 AM
Why do you want to get out of your car on the side of the road Steve? It's far safer and more comfortable to just stay seated!

I don't get out. My point that you seem to miss or totally ignore is that it is not against any rule or law to get out of your car if you're pulled over. It used to be taught in driver's ed that you should do so and meet the cop between the cars as a sign of respect and so the cop isn't standing next to moving traffic. I don't honestly know when that changed, but it's still perfectly legal to do that and a 70 year old who may not have been pulled over for a lot of years could have thought that is still the proper thing to do.

The bottom line is that a perfectly innocent 70 year old is dead, shot by an LEO, and he broke no laws. That kind of collateral damage may be acceptable to you and some others; not to me.

rondog
March 14th, 2014, 11:22 AM
Funny, last two times I was pulled over I was armed, and nobody died. No shots were even fired.

In one case the officer at my passenger window saw my holstered 1911 and we chatted about it while we waited for his partner to finish with my stuff.

In the other, it wasn't even mentioned, but I was going to the range and it was pretty obvious my truck had enough firepower in it to rival the whole Kiowa PD's arsenal.

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 11:23 AM
Yep...odds are low Steve.


http://www.krdo.com/news/loveland-officer-shot-during-traffic-stop/24772462

:lmao:

With 18 million or so traffic stops every year the odds are low. Incredibly low. The odds of something happening is how likely it is to happen. One or two incidents out of tens of millions doesn't show high odds of something happening, sorry.

You must be a joy to play poker with. You should never go to Las Vegas cuz you'd probably have to declare bankruptcy when they get done with you. :spit:

bsaunder
March 14th, 2014, 11:25 AM
Funny, last two times I was pulled over I was armed, and nobody died. No shots were even fired.

In one case the officer at my passenger window saw my holstered 1911 and we chatted about it while we waited for his partner to finish with my stuff.

In the other, it wasn't even mentioned, but I was going to the range and it was pretty obvious my truck had enough firepower in it to rival the whole Kiowa PD's arsenal.

Did you pick it up and point it at the officer?

Waifer2112
March 14th, 2014, 11:28 AM
LOL, seriously? A quick Google search says that there are ~18 million or so traffic stops annually in the U.S. How many result in any form of violence or attack against the cop? The odds of that happening in a cop's career is barely above zero. Cops being careful is one thing. Cops thinking every person pulled over is Ted Bundy with a gun is so far beyond stupid it's laughable.

And really, comparing IEDs in the Middle East to routine traffic stops in the U.S? C'mon guys, it's getting beyond bizzare around here now.

Strawman boy here.

What are the chances you'll ever need the use of your CCW Steve? Not very high, huh? But you carry just in the small case you may need it someday. Because if you need it, it's life and death, right?

Exact same thing here. What's the percentage the cop will be fired upon? Not small enough in a life and death situation.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 11:33 AM
I don't get out. My point that you seem to miss or totally ignore is that it is not against any rule or law to get out of your car if you're pulled over. It used to be taught in driver's ed that you should do so and meet the cop between the cars as a sign of respect and so the cop isn't standing next to moving traffic. I don't honestly know when that changed, but it's still perfectly legal to do that and a 70 year old who may not have been pulled over for a lot of years could have thought that is still the proper thing to do.

The bottom line is that a perfectly innocent 70 year old is dead, shot by an LEO, and he broke no laws. That kind of collateral damage may be acceptable to you and some others; not to me.

Nobody has said that it is a rule. Every. But keep changing that facts however you see fit Steve. It is however a widely known and accepted way to stay safe along a busy freeway. Make the cop stand in traffic!

I'm in my mid 40s and I've never once heard about "meeting the cop" so you must be REALLY old if you think that is the case.




:lmao:

With 18 million or so traffic stops every year the odds are low. Incredibly low. The odds of something happening is how likely it is to happen. One or two incidents out of tens of millions doesn't show high odds of something happening, sorry.

You must be a joy to play poker with. You should never go to Las Vegas cuz you'd probably have to declare bankruptcy when they get done with you. :spit:

You still fail at stats despite being an enginerd.:flipoff2: The fact is that is does happen and has happened recently. Cops should be careful to make sure it doesn't happen to them.

Do you wear a seatbelt? Drive a car with an airbag? Lock your doors? The odds of needing those things are low too so why even bother right?

I bet the odds of getting all your money stolen by sitting it on the porch are low too. Are you willing to take that risk?

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 11:42 AM
Thank gawd she didn't have a squirt gun.

http://www.policeone.com/community-policing/articles/6969004-2-year-old-gets-ticketed-by-Fla-police/

SamFromCO
March 14th, 2014, 11:47 AM
In 2011, according to data I collected, police officers in the United States shot 1,146 people, killing 607.

Alan Maimon, in his article, "National Data on Shootings by Police Not Collected," published on November 28, 2011 in the "Las Vegas Review-Journal," wrote "The nation's leading law enforcement agency [FBI] collects vast amounts of information on crime nationwide, but missing from this clearinghouse are statistics on where, how often, and under what circumstances police use deadly force. In fact, no one anywhere comprehensively tracks the most significant act police can do in the line of duty: take a life."

In 2010, 59 officers were shot to death among 122 killed while on the job. This marked a 20 percent jump from 2009 when 49 officers were killed by gunfire.

http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012/01/police-involved-shootings-2011-annual.html

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 12:02 PM
why would approaching a car be considered an act of aggression?.

During a traffic stop the police need to keep control of the situation. So yes when somebody is approaching the police car there is no control. There is no way to know what there intent is. Its also not safe for and person to be wondering about the side of the roadway. Thye could easily be hit by a passing motorists. In any confrontation the person who usually advances is considered the aggressor.

ASCTLC
March 14th, 2014, 12:10 PM
In any confrontation the person who usually advances is considered the aggressor.

Hell, even a moose knows that :D

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 12:14 PM
Hell, even a moose knows that :D

Even winterlovers on snowmobiles wait until they have been charged at least twice before pulling the trigger. :flipoff2:

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 12:23 PM
Last time I checked a moose doesn't have anyway to attack at 20 or 30 feet. Nor can they shoot a gun.

Don S
March 14th, 2014, 12:33 PM
..

Common sense? I never ever got out of the car.

When I attract a LEO and he/she wants me to pull over I turn on the turn signal, I slow down, and look for a safe place to stop. Once stopped I turn off the engine and I slowly pull out my drivers license and put it on the dash and roll the window down. With my seatbelt still fastened I put both hands high on the steering wheel and sit still saying a prayer.
I apologize to the LEO for driving fast but tell them it does keep me more alert. This procedure/attitude has gotten me out of quite a few speeding tickets. Excuses have never worked for me. And lastly… I’ll never own another red vehicle!

Have a good one.. Don S..

Avenger
March 14th, 2014, 12:36 PM
Judging by some of the replies there are an extremely high percentage of people on the interwebz that can make perfect decisions in mere milliseconds, in the dark, every day of the year, one hundred prevent of the time, every time. Very impressive. :flipoff2:

cheftyler
March 14th, 2014, 12:39 PM
Last time I checked a moose doesn't have anyway to attack at 20 or 30 feet. Nor can they shoot a gun.

Oh good god, you have ZERO sense of humor don't you?

Waifer2112
March 14th, 2014, 12:39 PM
Judging by some of the replies there are an extremely high percentage of people on the interwebz that can make perfect decisions in mere milliseconds, in the dark, every day of the year, one hundred prevent of the time, every time. Very impressive. :flipoff2:

With many to most of them never having been in a life and death conflict.

I wonder about the cops past work history. Had he ever been shot at, or even pointed at with a deadly weapon? Did he come off a violent domestic dispute earlier in the evening? :shrug:

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 12:49 PM
Oh good god, you have ZERO sense of humor don't you?

I do and it made me chuckle but I cant break my stance.

cheftyler
March 14th, 2014, 12:53 PM
I do and it made me chuckle but I cant break my stance.

You had the opportunity to ignore the comment :shrug:

Grant H.
March 14th, 2014, 01:17 PM
Cole, have you ever been on the backside of the spotlights on a cop car? You can see, EXTREMELY CLEARLY, everything in front of them (assuming not shadowed - which the cane was not).

The dashcam images you pulled are about the worst thing you could ever grab to try and prove the cop made an intelligent decision. Those cameras pick up a LOT of "flare" from the lights that our eyes do NOT.

I will damn near guarantee you that the cop could tell that it was NOT a gun of any kind when the old man started picking it up. They don't turn those lights on and point them at you for no reason...

Either way, even if the cop is legally blind and couldn't see what the old man was grabbing, this is a case of a cop shooting without just cause/good reason.

A shotgun, carried by an old man in a farm truck, isn't going to get through the car door. It's going to be loaded with birdshot or rock salt. The cop should have taken a lot more time to identify the situation before he even got the retention strap off of his sidearm.

This is just another example of some scumbag cop being trigger happy and then hiding behind the lame-a** excuse that he "thought" it was a gun.

As someone else posted, I hope this haunts this Dbag cop for the rest of his days.

rondog
March 14th, 2014, 01:20 PM
..

Im sure glad it happened that way if it had to happen.
If it had happened the other way we would be hearing about it every day for a solid year and then the anniversary of it forever after.
Im willing to forgive and sooner or later forget but the media is not

Have a good one.. Don S..

LOL! I can hear Obama now - "If I had a father, he'd look....."

rondog
March 14th, 2014, 01:22 PM
Did you pick it up and point it at the officer?

Oh HELLZ no! Ain't gonna pick up my cane now either.

Oh, and not only am I old enough to remember getting out of your car to meet the cop was SOP, I also remember every cop having me come back to HIS car to have a seat in the pass. side while he writes his love note to me and lectures me on the evils of being a menace to society.

ASCTLC
March 14th, 2014, 01:27 PM
Hell, even a moose knows that :D


Even winterlovers on snowmobiles wait until they have been charged at least twice before pulling the trigger. :flipoff2:

:lmao: touche :D

Sound_Man
March 14th, 2014, 01:28 PM
Larger than bird shot and smaller than buck shot

http://i.imgur.com/O2kR4Ge.jpg

It would appear that a car door is pretty good cover from this sort of thing.

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 01:40 PM
Judging by some of the replies there are an extremely high percentage of people on the interwebz that can make perfect decisions in mere milliseconds, in the dark, every day of the year, one hundred prevent of the time, every time. Very impressive. :flipoff2:

Impressive. Isnt it? :cool:

K2
March 14th, 2014, 01:41 PM
http://youtu.be/IAUhKuMNeAI

Watch the first segment.

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 01:44 PM
Oh, and not only am I old enough to remember getting out of your car to meet the cop was SOP, I also remember every cop having me come back to HIS car to have a seat in the pass. side while he writes his love note to me and lectures me on the evils of being a menace to society.

Huh, so I'm not the only one that remembers when that was SOP. Imagine that. I'm sure Cole will chime in shortly about why we remember it wrong.

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 02:00 PM
I do believe if that was my father in the video retrieving his cane, I would completely fail in saying, "Well hell, Dad was wrong. Too bad old man". That's why I'm taking this stance. Dont want to be a hypocrite. The cop would be wrong in my eyes for murdering my unarmed father.

Did the cop have good reason to do what he did? Of course he did. I still maintain he jumped the gun.

PovertyByJeep
March 14th, 2014, 02:01 PM
Huh, so I'm not the only one that remembers when that was SOP. Imagine that. I'm sure Cole will chime in shortly about why we remember it wrong.


It was SOP because that took the person out of their car, and away from hidden areas and potential weapons.

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 02:01 PM
I am much younger that you Steve but in my many traffic stops I never once had an officer ask me why I never met them in the middle of the two cars.

Clod Hopper
March 14th, 2014, 02:02 PM
I also remember every cop having me come back to HIS car to have a seat in the pass. side while he writes his love note to me and lectures me on the evils of being a menace to society.

Nebraska DOT still does that.

Clod Hopper
March 14th, 2014, 02:05 PM
I still maintain he jumped the gun.

I thought he just fired the gun. Dude must be super nimble cause I didn't see him do that in the video.

CherryokeeXJ
March 14th, 2014, 02:33 PM
I thought he just fired the gun. Dude must be super nimble cause I didn't see him do that in the video.

Har fawkin har. :flipoff2: :P

Don S
March 14th, 2014, 02:41 PM
..

Most people here do have IQs above 60.
I got my first traffic stop on Grand Ave. nearly in down town St.Louis at 13.5 years old. I acted like in my post above. Except I didnt have a license but a invalid receipt, didnt have a seatbelt or turn signals no such thing in passenger vehicles back then before 1951. I did know to give the standard hand/arm stopping signal. The LEO scolded me for speeding but didnt write a ticket. I forgot to mention I always use the word Sir.
Of course if I had gotten out and done a moonwalk back to the patrol car Im not sure if Id got a ticket or shot.

You are smart enough (I hope) NOT to suddenly reach behind you for your wallet as you walk up to the patrol careh..

Have a good one.. Don S..

Clod Hopper
March 14th, 2014, 02:49 PM
Of course if I had gotten out and done a moonwalk back to the patrol car Im not sure if Id got a ticket or shot.

The moonwalk hadn't been invented at that time. The veracity of the statement as a whole is now in question. Produce the dashcam of the stop or we will be forced to disbelieve your story.




:flipoff2:

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 14th, 2014, 03:31 PM
Cole, have you ever been on the backside of the spotlights on a cop car? You can see, EXTREMELY CLEARLY, everything in front of them (assuming not shadowed - which the cane was not).

Yes. I was a police officer for over a decade!



The dashcam images you pulled are about the worst thing you could ever grab to try and prove the cop made an intelligent decision.

I did not pull any dash cam images to prove the cop did anything at all. I put them up to debunk the previous posters claim that he could clearly see that it was a cane in the video!

You jumped to conclusions(the wrong one) before accurately reading and assessing the sentences that I wrote. Even without the threat to your life, a time crunch, darkness, or any pressure, you still failed to even fully assess the words on the screen before taking the wrong action.








I will damn near guarantee you that the cop could tell that it was NOT a gun of any kind when the old man started picking it up.

No! The cop could only tell after he shot. Which is why he stopped shooting and began offering medical (and spiritual) assistance.





A shotgun, carried by an old man in a farm truck, isn't going to get through the car door. It's going to be loaded with birdshot or rock salt.

B.S.!

Son are you willing to get a shotgun last of birdshot and broken glass in the eyes before defending your life?

Even bird shot and rock salt can be considered deadly force!

Don S
March 14th, 2014, 05:04 PM
The moonwalk hadn't been invented at that time. The veracity of the statement as a whole is now in question. Produce the dashcam of the stop or we will be forced to disbelieve your story.


:flipoff2:
..


Yer right!... But what is a dash cam... Back then we took the officer's word for it. He He He!
If you don't believe it see the copy of the ticket I didn't get below... <grin>

Have two good ones on me.. Don S..

Clod Hopper
March 14th, 2014, 05:13 PM
..


Yer right!... But what is a dash cam... Back then we took the officer's word for it. He He He!
If you don't believe it see the copy of the ticket I didn't get below... <grin>

Have two good ones on me.. Don S..

Aaah! But I didn't say video, now did I?

http://ursispaltenstein.ch/blog/images/uploads_img/antique_19th_century_cameras.jpg




:flipoff2:

vb
March 14th, 2014, 05:31 PM
WTF does age have to do with it? A 70 year old can pull a trigger just as well as an 18 year old!!

There are many cases of people older than 70 killing people!!
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/12/woman_98_charge.html

As a matter of fact, the incidence of metal illness goes up and people become a danger to themselves and others.


There are many cases of "suicide by cop" where people can't seem to commit suicide themselves so they go out and point a gun at a cop hoping the cop will do it for them. This actually happens more often than you would think with the elderly!


Also, at this point, no contact Ana's been made. He doesn't know the age! You are also suggesting he wait until his head has been blown off first to see if the guys intent was to kill him?

This was a tragic incident. The article didn't say the guy died, unless other have more info. So they will both probably learn from it.

Its oblivious the cop didn't want to hurt the old man, just responding to what he thought he saw as a threat to his own life! Which so many talk about using their guns to defend themselves around here! But jump on cop bashing when cops try to defend themselves. Unfortunately it wasn't clear lighting....so what do you think the other options were?



very well said.... you should have talked to my assistant DA!

vb
March 14th, 2014, 05:40 PM
During a traffic stop the police need to keep control of the situation. So yes when somebody is approaching the police car there is no control. There is no way to know what there intent is. Its also not safe for and person to be wondering about the side of the roadway. Thye could easily be hit by a passing motorists. In any confrontation the person who usually advances is considered the aggressor.


more common sense. how bout that.... I'd love to have you write a letter to the LARIMER county DA and TH judges that sit in a states high court... they don't understand what you just typed

Grant H.
March 14th, 2014, 05:49 PM
Yes. I was a police officer for over a decade!

This explains a lot.

Of course you would defend your "brother"... Even when he is in the wrong.

Sorry dude, but this cop should be prosecuted for manslaughter at the minimum.

Maybe if there were actual consequences, instead of 2 weeks paid leave and mandatory shrink sessions for 2 months, for extremely poor decisions made by cops, these extremely poor decisions would happen less...


Even bird shot and rock salt can be considered deadly force!

Bird shot? Sure...

Rock salt? From more than 10 feet? That's a cute opinion...


You're argument, that the cop couldn't clearly see what the guy had, actually works against him. That means that he drew, fired (horribly, as most cops do), and SHOT an INNOCENT man, without knowing that there was a threat.

And you're still defending him...

Grant H.
March 14th, 2014, 06:11 PM
I did not pull any dash cam images to prove the cop did anything at all. I put them up to debunk the previous posters claim that he could clearly see that it was a cane in the video!

You jumped to conclusions(the wrong one) before accurately reading and assessing the sentences that I wrote. Even without the threat to your life, a time crunch, darkness, or any pressure, you still failed to even fully assess the words on the screen before taking the wrong action.

The end result of your explanation here is that you using the images to justify what the cop did. Which happens to be what I stated.

McKinney stated he could tell it was a cane. You said he couldn't, which you argued the cop couldn't either, so the images are actually there for two reasons.

1. To prove McKinney wrong.
2. To prove the cop right.

I didn't "jump to conclusions".



Son are you willing to get a shotgun last of birdshot and broken glass in the eyes before defending your life?



I would be a lot more willing to let a cop car eat a shotgun shell worth of birdshot before shooting an innocent man. If the officer had followed protocol when pulling up behind the vehicle, which the camera angle shows he didn't, then it wouldn't have been just the car door and window between him and the "armed and dangerous" senior citizen with a cane...

The whole situation sucks. But the cop should have handled this differently.

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 06:41 PM
You're argument, that the cop couldn't clearly see what the guy had, actually works against him. That means that he drew, fired (horribly, as most cops do), and SHOT an INNOCENT man, without knowing that there was a threat.

And you're still defending him...

Wrong.

There was a threat. It was in the form of a man carrying a wepon and he was advancing towards the cruiser. It cannot get any simpler than that. The intent of the old man was not going to be malicious not harmful. But he advanced in such a mannor. If you have ever been in a situation similar to that you would understand the officers actions.

Steve
March 14th, 2014, 06:52 PM
Enough armchair QBs in this thread to staff an NFL team. :spit:

CLYDE
March 14th, 2014, 06:56 PM
because that did not used to be the way it worked, when he was young, you got out and met the cop at the back of your car, in fact that's how it was up til the 80s. When I was a teenager, you got out and moved to the rear of the car.

Seriously thought. How hard is it to follow the one rule of a traffics stop that everyone knows by now? "Stay in the car!"

At 70 this guy should have this one figured out!


Following this simple rule would have avoided the confusion about the cane!

CLYDE
March 14th, 2014, 06:57 PM
oops, Steve beat me to it :D
Where is that rule written? When I was growing up, and this guy was a lot older, we were taught to get out of the car and meet the cop between the cars. This guy might not have been pulled over for decades and still thought that was the correct thing to do.

These threads always bring the lulz though, especially with Cole saying cops never, ever, not even in a million years make a bad choice or decision and others saying the opposite.

Grant H.
March 14th, 2014, 07:10 PM
Wrong.

There was a threat. It was in the form of a man carrying a wepon and he was advancing towards the cruiser. It cannot get any simpler than that. The intent of the old man was not going to be malicious not harmful. But he advanced in such a mannor. If you have ever been in a situation similar to that you would understand the officers actions.

Maybe if the officer is almost legally blind... He couldn't see what it was when it was broadside and in the light, but then could after the old guy turned it away into the shadows and behind himself??? Not buying it.

You and Cole are clearly right, the cop is justified, and deserves a medal for eliminating a dangerous elderly man, seeking suicide by cop. He also deserves a medal for marksmanship since he barely managed to not hit the wife (only came damn close in his spraying of bullets...)

Anyway... That's all from me folks. No point in arguing this one. Shouldn't have started to begin with.

CLYDE
March 14th, 2014, 07:16 PM
yep, I sat in that seat many times, in my youth.
Oh HELLZ no! Ain't gonna pick up my cane now either.

Oh, and not only am I old enough to remember getting out of your car to meet the cop was SOP, I also remember every cop having me come back to HIS car to have a seat in the pass. side while he writes his love note to me and lectures me on the evils of being a menace to society.

CLYDE
March 14th, 2014, 07:31 PM
I say bad shoot btw. Mostly I blame that on the way cops are trained today, they are being trained to act in a military manner, against citizens. Nothing annoys me more than to hear a cop call citizens, "civilians" I have heard that a lot, and its dead wrong. Cops are public servants, and as such no higher on the food chain than anyone else, basically, citizens doing a job. I think they are taught now to ignore the Constitution. I don't dislike cops, hell I worked with them every day for 25 years, have some great friends that are cops, however I also know a bunch I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.

GM4X4LOVER
March 14th, 2014, 08:35 PM
Maybe if the officer is almost legally blind... He couldn't see what it was when it was broadside and in the light, but then could after the old guy turned it away into the shadows and behind himself??? Not buying it.

You and Cole are clearly right, the cop is justified, and deserves a medal for eliminating a dangerous elderly man, seeking suicide by cop. He also deserves a medal for marksmanship since he barely managed to not hit the wife (only came damn close in his spraying of bullets...)

Anyway... That's all from me folks. No point in arguing this one. Shouldn't have started to begin with.

far from what we are saying. It was a misjudgment but one that would have been easly made that situation. I dont like the fact that an innocent person was shot. And I am sure the cop doesnt either.

Cranky CJ
March 15th, 2014, 02:44 AM
Oh for craps sake. I read page one an skipped the rest. Cole-ford, your credibility is shot. you only take the cops side forever and always. an old man was shot and the cop clearly realized his mistake within seconds. Then you blather your rhetoric on and on. BS, go peddle it some where else. You are full of crap. Stop it.

creepycrawler
March 15th, 2014, 05:24 AM
This is a fun thread.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 06:22 AM
Oh for craps sake. I read page one an skipped the rest. Cole-ford, your credibility is shot. you only take the cops side forever and always. an old man was shot and the cop clearly realized his mistake within seconds. Then you blather your rhetoric on and on. BS, go peddle it some where else. You are full of crap. Stop it.


You read one page and spout out this BS about credibility? Fail! This is exactly the problem!! People read part of whatever the media sells them and they run with it! Sheeple!

I "don't always take the cops side", as a matter of fact I've NEVER taken a "side" at all! This is how bad your reading comprehension is!

Members here are always so fast to jump to conclusions based on poor media reporting that someone needs to point out FACTS to balance out the BS. Usually those facts start to lean the BS sensationalized reporting by our media back towards a potential truth. If you think that's usually in the cops favor, then so be it!

You're so prejudiced in these situations that the cop did something horrible that you just run down that path without ever looking at all the possibilities! Huge fail!

DaleD
March 15th, 2014, 07:43 AM
This is a fun thread.

Agree


You read one page and spout out this BS about credibility? Fail! This is exactly the problem!! People read part of whatever the media sells them and they run with it! Sheeple!

I "don't always take the cops side", as a matter of fact I've NEVER taken a "side" at all! This is how bad your reading comprehension is!

Members here are always so fast to jump to conclusions based on poor media reporting that someone needs to point out FACTS to balance out the BS. Usually those facts start to learn the BS sensationalized reporting by our media back towards a potential truth. If you think that's usually in the cops favor, then so be it!

You're so prejudiced in these situations that the cop did something horrible that you just run down that path without ever looking at all the possibilities! Huge fail!
Agree also...

potter
March 15th, 2014, 08:07 AM
Agree also...

Then why perpetuate the issue by bringing it here and making a thread of it?

al24
March 15th, 2014, 09:09 AM
I don't get out. My point that you seem to miss or totally ignore is that it is not against any rule or law to get out of your car if you're pulled over. It used to be taught in driver's ed that you should do so and meet the cop between the cars as a sign of respect and so the cop isn't standing next to moving traffic. I don't honestly know when that changed, but it's still perfectly legal to do that and a 70 year old who may not have been pulled over for a lot of years could have thought that is still the proper thing to do.

The bottom line is that a perfectly innocent 70 year old is dead, shot by an LEO, and he broke no laws. That kind of collateral damage may be acceptable to you and some others; not to me.


Oh HELLZ no! Ain't gonna pick up my cane now either.

Oh, and not only am I old enough to remember getting out of your car to meet the cop was SOP, I also remember every cop having me come back to HIS car to have a seat in the pass. side while he writes his love note to me and lectures me on the evils of being a menace to society.


Huh, so I'm not the only one that remembers when that was SOP. Imagine that. I'm sure Cole will chime in shortly about why we remember it wrong.


because that did not used to be the way it worked, when he was young, you got out and met the cop at the back of your car, in fact that's how it was up til the 80s. When I was a teenager, you got out and moved to the rear of the car.

Just to add the guy survived.
And I was taught in drivers ed (do they still have that anymore?) to exit the vehicle and walk to the back of the car. I've also done my time in the passenger seat of various police cars.


Yes. I was a police officer for over a decade!



Just wondering if the training included warning someone before shooting them. Something besides "sir sir sir" or "whoa whoa whoa" ?

Don S
March 15th, 2014, 09:13 AM
..

With all due respect… If it wasn’t for this thread I would never have known.
We watch the news three times a day here in DFW. There has been no mention of this shooting on local or ABC news. Racially it went the wrong way to make the local channel 8 news casts.
Guess I need to start watching Fox News.

Thank You.. Don S..

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 09:38 AM
Just to add the guy survived.
And I was taught in drivers ed (do they still have that anymore?) to exit the vehicle and walk to the back of the car. I've also done my time in the passenger seat of various police cars.



Yep. Perfect example of how poorly the story was presented. Didn't even mention that the guy had a full recovery to the minor gun shot wound. That would have taken all the fun out of the news! Wouldn't want to ruin the news with critical facts. :shrug:



Just wondering if the training included warning someone before shooting them. Something besides "sir sir sir" or "whoa whoa whoa" ?

:spit::lmao:

Yeah....in the ideal scenario there would have been several commands issued before shooting. Something to the effect of "Police officer! Drop the gun!". Ideally repeated several times. The part of this story as it plays out on the video is that the cane (perceived shotgun) swings to a position where its pointing towards the cop. Then the talking stops! (unlike the movies)

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 09:42 AM
..

With all due respect… If it wasn’t for this thread I would never have known.
We watch the news three times a day here in DFW. There has been no mention of this shooting on local or ABC news. Racially it went the wrong way to make the local channel 8 news casts.
Guess I need to start watching Fox News.

Thank You.. Don S..


I'm always amazed at how some of the most volatile new reports here are from the small, almost unknown news outlets. It's probably because when the larger news agencies filter out some basic facts the story is no longer that interesting. Like leaving out the hugely important fact that the guy in this story is alive and well.

al24
March 15th, 2014, 09:49 AM
If it's in CO4X4 GCC or on the interwebs it's gospel.

Wulf
March 15th, 2014, 09:52 AM
"This old man's life will never be the same"

FTFY

JiminyCricket
March 15th, 2014, 12:03 PM
Force Decisions - A Citizen's Guide - Understanding How Police Determine Appropriate Use Of Force

by Rory Miller


Good book to read.

goofyjumper
March 15th, 2014, 12:13 PM
I read about 90% of the posts in this thread and I am surprised by all of Cole's full support for this cop. Am I a cop? No. I was a soldier who fought in Iraq and I know that you can't compare a full on war zone to a traffic stop. However, that being said there is one basic similarity. You MUST positively identify a weapon in a combatant's hand before you shoot. I have used my weapon in combat and I have hesitated to shoot when I could not clearly identify a weapon and I am glad I did. Cops should not shoot first and then ask questions later. Cole, were you taught to shoot people before identifying if they were really holding a weapon or not? Let's get real here. This LEO deserves to be fired. It is irresponsible for an LEO to not identify what is the hands of someone before they shoot them down. This story clearly illustrates that point. I would of held the soldiers in my squad accountable for target/weapon identification and we were getting shot at all the time. This cop.... trigger happy S.O.B.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 12:23 PM
Force Decisions - A Citizen's Guide - Understanding How Police Determine Appropriate Use Of Force

by Rory Miller


Good book to read.

38 page preview in the link below. Only about $8 on Amazon for the Kindle.

http://ymaa.com/files/ForceDecisionsPreview.pdf

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 12:24 PM
Where did I ever offer "full support" for this cop? Not once have I actually supported what he did, only commented on the information presented.

Must have been speed reading there buddy! Another snap to act before being clear of your target comment! Hate to see how you react when someone points "what looks like a gun" at you!!

I fully agree that you must be sure of why you are shooting. That is why I said in the very first post I made that there were mistakes on both sides.

Obviously what this guy thought was a gun turned out not to be. The key in this is that, TO HIM, it looked like a gun pointing at him when he made the decision. I suppose you can argue all day on how clear that needs to be. Should he be able to see the serial numbers and have them run to make sure its actually a functioning firearm first?

The ONLY thing I've supported is that it is obvious from the cops actions after the shooting that his intent wasn't to hurt anyone, only to defend himself against what he thought as an attack.

It's amazing how many people in here read what they WANT or THINK you are going to type instead of what you ACTUALLY typed.





I read about 90% of the posts in this thread and I am surprised by all of Cole's full support for this cop. Am I a cop? No. I was a soldier who fought in Iraq and I know that you can't compare a full on war zone to a traffic stop. However, that being said there is one basic similarity. You MUST positively identify a weapon in a combatant's hand before you shoot. I have used my weapon in combat and I have hesitated to shoot when I could not clearly identify a weapon and I am glad I did. Cops should not shoot first and then ask questions later. Cole, were you taught to shoot people before identifying if they were really holding a weapon or not? Let's get real here. This LEO deserves to be fired. It is irresponsible for an LEO to not identify what is the hands of someone before they shoot them down. This story clearly illustrates that point. I would of held the soldiers in my squad accountable for target/weapon identification and we were getting shot at all the time. This cop.... trigger happy S.O.B.

Sound_Man
March 15th, 2014, 12:36 PM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090629015806/uncyclopedia/images/archive/7/7c/20091109054502!Moonwalk.gif:rolleyes:

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 12:40 PM
:rolleyes:

Insightful.:rolleyes:

It's truly amazing at how poor the reading skills are in this forum and how they lead to massive jumps to conclusions.

Look at the number and type of comments like "Only read enough to jump to a conclusion...."

So much "skimming" of comments that people don't truly comprehend what is being said. Just jump to make their next emotional post. :thumbsdown:

Colo.TJ
March 15th, 2014, 12:54 PM
I have no interest is watching a video of an old man get shot and killed by anybody. The moose video was difficult to watch.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 12:57 PM
I have no interest is watching a video of an old man get shot and killed by anybody. The moose video was difficult to watch.

The guy didn't die! He is fine.

They left that information out of the article. Probably to make it a more interesting story. But, few seem to have tried to search out those facts.

goofyjumper
March 15th, 2014, 12:58 PM
Insightful.:rolleyes:

It's truly amazing at how poor the reading skills are in this forum and how they lead to massive jumps to conclusions.

Look at the number and type of comments like "Only read enough to jump to a conclusion...."

So much "skimming" of comments that people don't truly comprehend what is being said. Just jump to make their next emotional post. :thumbsdown:

No need to read through 100% of your posts. Your CAPITAL LETTERS and exclamation points were obvious enough.

Why are you so belittling of a lot of people here because they do not agree with you? An LEO is suppose to have enough training to know the difference between positive target identification and "I thought he had a gun." Those two are not the same. I have been in amped up situations where I used my weapon. I found you have more clarity in those situations than in any other.

Go place a cane and a rifle 30 feet in front of your head lights at night. I bet you can clearly tell the difference.

Cane:
http://www.biokineticspt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/canes-and-crutches.gif
Rifle:
http://www.centerlineofcalhoun.org/images/hunting_rifle.gif


Which is more likely to be pulled out of the back of a truck by a hobbling old man?

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 01:13 PM
No need to read through 100% of your posts. Your CAPITAL LETTERS and exclamation points were obvious enough.


Obvious like a cane! :rolleyes:

Since you didn't read the post how can you make any credible comment?:rolleyes:

It wasn't about anything you posted. None of it.

Maybe read it and you would see that.



Why are you so belittling of a lot of people here because they do not agree with you?

Fail again. I'm making the point that if you don't take the time to read the information accurately then you shouldn't jump to a conclusion. :thumbsdown:

I have not put anyone down for not agreeing with me. Only those that have clearly accused me of saying things I did not and have never said. Its extremely clear that those people haven't actually read and comprehended what was posted.:thumbsdown: Like yourself.






An LEO is suppose to have enough training to know the difference between positive target identification and "I thought he had a gun." Those two are not the same.

Guess you missed the part where I agreed with you too.

If he thought it was a gun at the time it was pointed at him then HE was the ONLY one with the information to choose. I have asked for alternative suggestions several times, but nobody has responded. :thumbsdown:







Which is more likely to be pulled out of the back of a truck by a hobbling old man?

We have been through this. But agian. I guess you don't need all the info to jump to an answer.

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 01:17 PM
BTW, pictures of canes and guns are sorta pointless since they have been making Cane Shotguns for a long time. :flipoff2:



http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m87kubNxgC1r9khx4o1_1280.jpg

All guns here.

http://www.micksguns.com/images/latest%20cane%20guns.jpg

Steve
March 15th, 2014, 02:15 PM
Yep. Perfect example of how poorly the story was presented. Didn't even mention that the guy had a full recovery to the minor gun shot wound.

So not only is the cop a complete idiot he's also a horrible shot. Great combination for a cop. Or not.


It's amazing how many people in here read what they WANT or THINK you are going to type instead of what you ACTUALLY typed.

I agree 100%. Particularly about most of your posts that have anything to do with LEOs. :spit:

Rex Ashton
March 15th, 2014, 02:22 PM
Lulz.

This thread is full of lose.

Wulf
March 15th, 2014, 02:23 PM
Lulz.

This forum is full of lose.

Yup!

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 02:23 PM
So not only is the cop a complete idiot he's also a horrible shot. Great combination for a cop. Or not.

He made a mistake for sure. (as I've already said many times).........and a VERY poor shot under pressure. Kinda surprised he landed one when you see how far off some of the others seem to be. Looks like the first one bounced off the top of the cab. Not sure where the rest went.



I agree 100%. Particularly about most of your posts that have anything to do with LEOs. :spit:

FWIW, I've never blindly supported any LEO. That would be stupid. There is a reason these cops are in the news. Usually because something went wrong.

After doing that job I learned to always look at the facts! Not the hearsay, media, opinions, etc. But the facts. Which is all I've ever tried to "clear up" in these threads.

Many times there are simply not enough facts to make a sound judgement either way. Even bringing up the lack of facts seems to cause many to jump to the idea that you are "supporting the cop":shrug: The media does a horrible job at presenting all the facts. They only give enough information to make for an interesting story.

It's also really easy to make judgements on information "after the fact". Like the first guy in this thread claiming he could "clearly see that it was a cane". Which, as I tried to point out was impossible to see a "cane before the shooting, from the video evidence we were presented. After the shooting, it was much clearer that it was a cane. Even the officer saw that. Many here read that as a defense of the cops actions, not as a "calling of BS" on the other posters ability to see a cane in the blurry video!

People here seem so blinded by hatred for cops that if you say anything that might remotely look like you are defending them they jump on an anti-cop mob bandwagon, without ever reading the actual context of a post.

goofyjumper
March 15th, 2014, 02:33 PM
I agree 100%. Particularly about most of your posts that have anything to do with LEOs. :spit:


Nicely said. :-)

Xtremjeepn-Cole Ford
March 15th, 2014, 02:39 PM
Nicely said. :-)

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

goofyjumper
March 15th, 2014, 02:54 PM
:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Only reading what you want? Re-read the above posts..... maybe you will see the clever jab.... maybe you won't.

Quick Draw
March 15th, 2014, 03:06 PM
BTW, pictures of canes and guns are sorta pointless since they have been making Cane Shotguns for a long time. :flipoff2:



http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m87kubNxgC1r9khx4o1_1280.jpg

All guns here.

http://www.micksguns.com/images/latest%20cane%20guns.jpg

If I ever need a cane... totally getting one.

ZappBranigan
March 17th, 2014, 08:11 AM
I want to know what driver's ed class you guys took where they told you what to do when you got pulled over by a cop. The only thing I recall is that they taught us to pull to the right side as quickly as possible so an emergency vehicle could pass but I don't recall them ever saying anything like "meet the cop halfway" or "get out of your car."

DrCloud
March 17th, 2014, 08:26 AM
^ This. My driver's ed class (middle '60s) was heavy on defensive driving and other very practical matters, but I sure didn't hear this meet-them-halfway message. HPH

CherryokeeXJ
March 17th, 2014, 09:09 AM
If I pulled my hair brush out of my glove compartment (it has a black handle) and for a moment that handle was pointed at the officer as I placed it on my dash board, is that reason enough to shoot me? I wouldn't realize his royal freakout of "whoa whoa whoa" was in regard to my brush. I'd assume a car coming was driving too close to him as it whipped by. :shrug:

There are so many instances where something can be mistaken for a weapon. It un-nerves me to think that every one of those situations is just cause to shoot someone according to some people.

mckinney
March 17th, 2014, 09:28 AM
Insightful.:rolleyes:

It's truly amazing at how poor the reading skills are in this forum and how they lead to massive jumps to conclusions.

Look at the number and type of comments like "Only read enough to jump to a conclusion...."

So much "skimming" of comments that people don't truly comprehend what is being said. Just jump to make their next emotional post. :thumbsdown:

OK, I will play along.

Your comments to my post was a complete reaction. You act as though I personnaly attacked you with my comments to what I got when I watched the video, then read the article. It's fine for you to assume, that's your right. So none of us are allowed to say what we think without being bashed for it?

I am not going to get into it with you, I have far better things to do but WE ALL are intitled to our opinion just like you.

Dave McDonald
March 17th, 2014, 09:44 AM
Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but I'm the only one entitled to have the right opinion.

ni0h
March 17th, 2014, 10:13 AM
Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but I'm the only one entitled to have the right opinion.

Everyone is entitled to have the right opinion, not just you. All you have to do is agree with me. It's just that easy.

Gags
March 17th, 2014, 11:18 AM
To me...This sounds like an odd series of events that resulted in a bad accident. I can see this LEO regretting how things went down. He may never be able to admit that publically. Shooting somebody is serious for LEO's. We want to avoid LEO's who do it recklessly (or criminally).

Of course, do I think he may have started squeezing off rounds a bit prematurely? Yeah...but...I can see how it happens. Hell, LEO's have shot each other accidently.

Tricky69
March 17th, 2014, 12:39 PM
I'm going to side with the cop here. And maybe it's because I know several cops... or because the officer in Loveland that was shot just a few weeks ago is still fresh in my mind. But they have a damn scary job sometimes. They are forced to make decisions in an instant to survive, sometimes without all of the information. Did this guy do everything right? No, of course not. But I'm going to cut him some slack because not one of us was standing in his shoes, seeing what he saw.

I agree