Crystal Mountain gate on 44H

[Norco]

What's the skinny on the gate on Crystal Mountain road just off the Buckhorn? I searched on it and some were recommending skipping that road entirely and accessing Crystal through Moody Hill.

My problem with that is I remember when the road was not gated and see no need to tiptoe around through backroads because of some holier-than-thou landowners. I did drive down the road from the Crystal trailhead to 44H today and saw several "private road" and "no trespassing" signs. However the gate was unlocked at the bottom. The forest service sign at the bottom merely said something to the effect of private land beyond this point.

So is it legal to drive through there? Why would the FS kowtow to this landowner's association, if that's who gated a public road? Other info?

[Mark]

It IS legal to drive thru the gate up Crystal Mountain Road. The gate is NOT locked, nor is it allowed to be, per the Larimer County Sherriff's Department. If I remember correctly, the landowner who has been involved in most of the confrontations up there with offroad drivers is Glen Kostur. He bought some land with a small house up there a few years ago, and now apparently thinks that the road that goes past his property is a private road. This is not true, though the road does pass THROUGH his property, as well as many other landowners. Mr. Kostur has several charges pending against him, though I cannot recall what they were. I believe some of them may have been federal charges as well.

The recomendation to bypass the gate altogether was based on the fact that Moody Hill trail attaches to Crystal Mountain, and takes nearly the same amount of time to travel as the Crystal Mountain 'road'. Out of common courtesy to the landowners up there, it has been suggested that off roaders use Moody as preferred method to gain access to Crystal Mountain. I have run both of these trails several times, and have used both means of accessing Crystal Mountain. I am just sure to drive slowly & respectfully while passing through private property, and I have never once had a problem.

Bottom line I guess is, use Moody when & if you can out of respect for the private landowners, but know if you choose to drive down Crystal Mountain road, you are not doing anything wrong.


Here is the link to a story 9 News ran a while back about the situation.
http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=bf66b9cc-0abe-421a-00b3-493aff0a700f&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

[Mack]

I am just sure to drive slowly & respectfully
You? Slowly? Respectfully? HAHAHAHA:D

[Mog416]

I am just sure to drive my jeep slowly & respectfully in my driveway, and I have never once had a problem.

Fixed it.http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Mark]

Fixed it.http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
'yer laughin' now buddy, but wait till you get home..... :D

[Buckhorn]

OlBlue is correct. I live in a different area of the upper Buckhorn, but know almost everyone that lives on Xtal Mtn personally. I've seen OlBlue's jeep up there before, and he was driving slow ;~)

You spelled the person's name in question wrong, but it's close enough. Their property is for sale--you want 4x4 heaven, just buy it! $649,000 for 80 acres, house and barns last time I checked. The legal questions are a nightmare; the USFS does not appear to have a proper easement for Crystal Mtn Rd from 44H, they do have one up Moody. The Larimer Sheriff's Dept. says it's OK to use Crystal Mtn Rd to access the area, and does not give tickets for doing so, though the legal questions are still unresolved. There are other folks up there year-round that are just as ornery. Please don't piss them off....they have no way to tell the difference between legitimate hobby 4x4 folks (who residents never even notice passing thru) and drunken high-school idiots, or extreme motorcycle/ATV racers. Some samples of why the Crystal Mtn residents don't trust tourists (again, I don't live on crystal mtn -- but I live nearby)

Loud motorcycles and ATV's going back and forth in front of their houses at 3AM, violating the county noise ordinance. Us folks up here have to go to WORK early in the morning too. Would this make any of YOU grouchy? Jump water bars elsewhere, farther up in the wilderness, please.

High speed extreme 4x4 traffic, nearly causing accidents on both Xtal Mtn and 44H. If you are speeding up 44H and on the wrong side of the road, and you pass a local resident's vehicle or house, you can expect to be turned into the Sherriff's dept. They will give tickets or reckless driving citations on the basis of a license number and physical description. The speed limit on 44H is 25 mph, and if you drive recklessly you can expect the sheriff chasing you, or (far, far worse) an extremely irritated local resident chasing you.

Drunken people pouring 5-gallon cans of gas on the road and lighting them at 1AM

Large forest fires started by campers

Drunken high school keg parties, with trash, old couches and poop left behind.

People shooting at signs, parked cars and houses from the road

Tweakers who break into cabins and set up meth labs for the weekend, and leave the toxic waste.

Jeepers who hook chains to their rig and rip our gates out of the ground for illegal access to private land.

We rarely have any trouble with hunters. They seem aware that it is the tourists responsibility to read a map and know where they can legally go.




Frankly, this goes for the rest of the Buckhorn too. Have respect. Realize that because of local resident's past experience, they expect the worst from you---and feel they are being invaded. I've lived here for 14 years, year round, and traffic has gone up by a factor of 20 since I moved up here.

Please, let us sleep. If you want to run a loud 2-stroke bike or 4 wheeler at 3AM, do so far up in the wilderness where no one will hear you.

Buckhorn

PS -- local residents up here regularly look at all the great rock-crawling photo links posted on this site. So far so good....nothing illegal seen....but the Ballard Mud Bug is private, and the Sheriff's dept. will give citations based on web photos. Once again, the private property signs at the bog and the barriers placed by the USFS have been stolen--so remember people are watching. Please have respect for private property.

[turbo]

but the Ballard Mud Bug is private, and the Sheriff's dept. will give citations based on web photos. Once again, the private property signs at the bog and the barriers placed by the USFS have been stolen--so remember people are watching. Please have respect for private property.

No idea what the Ballard Mud Bog is, but respect the fact that it's private. I do take concern with the fact that it is unmarked, and I'm supposed to use my crystal ball and know that it's private. I'm sorry (and irritated) that a rightful attempt was made to mark it private, and some jerk(s) ruined/stole the markings. However, I am unable to smell a difference in private soil as to public soil.

Is this Bog accessible via public roads, and you stumble upon a private area? How, then, can I know that I'm supposed to stay away?

As for Crystal Mountain, GOOD. I hope the residents turn in EVERY single person causing them distress. They have a right to do that. And if someone's trespassing, then the landowner should do what they need to get that person off their property or defend their home/welfare.

But I live in unincorporated Larimer county as well. If someone's disturbing me, I am NOT entitled to brandish a firearm and threaten them. The fact that Crystal Mountain is 'X' miles from any city limits doesn't entitle the residents of that out-subdivision any more than the residents of my out-subdivision are entitled.

I continue to use either access to Crystal Mountain. I continue to smile and wave at EVERY person I meet along my trip, no matter what their response/reaction is to my being there. No personal confontations so far, but I drive slow, and have a muffler. :wink:

PS-A quick side note after watching the 9News video. The Kostur's bought that land on 9/25/2001. The wheeling eruption there happened more than just the last 3 years. It's like people moving next to the airport and bitching about the noise. Faimly friends owned acerage on that road in the late 70's through the 80's. We would camp up there and spend many summer days up there. The wheeling was minimal. THOSE people were there before the wheelers. They're being invaded. The Kosturs, in essence, are invading the Wheelers, aren't they? Just a different view, I don't know.............

['86Toyota]

[QUOTE=

Is this Bog accessible via public roads, and you stumble upon a private area? How, then, can I know that I'm supposed to stay away?
QUOTE]


Yes, the Mud Bog is accessible... it's right off Ballard Road...
Are the rocks that mostly block the entrance down into that still there??

[Markos]

How about erroring on the side that if a sign is NOT posted, it may be private land. If you have any doubt in your mind that the road/obsticle/whatever is public, stay off of it. Otherwise, do some research before you leave for on your trip. Call the FS and tell them where you are headed. Ask if there are any hot spots that may cause an escalation. I do just the same when I go camping deep into the woods. Make sure the area is on National Forrest land/BLM land, and there are no restrictions (road closures, camping restrictions, fire restrictions, etc). Then call the county and do the same. It's called being responsible. Flame away!

Also, How about staying away from Bogs and Mud pits in general? Chances are, there is some discussion/controversy relating to the pit that you are about to drive through anyway. Is the thrill of getting mud all over your rig worth compromising the sport?

[turbo]

How about erroring on the side that if a sign is NOT posted, it may be private land. If you have any doubt in your mind that the road/obsticle/whatever is public, stay off of it.... It's called being responsible...

Whatever you call it, I call it common sense. But, there are many that were born without it. As I stated before, I have no idea what this place is. I wouldn't wander off through a field to a hole to drive through, assuming it was public. But by the same token, if there an unmarked fork in the road, both paths are equally maintained/traveled, perhaps you could end up there?

I have heard of many issues on Ballard road. I choose not to drive it at all. Like you said, err on the side of safety.

[ironpiggie]

i guy i work with is one of glen's neighbors...he says the guys been a pain since day one.

[DorkFace]

someone mentioned that they dont have problems with hunters usually. thats because hunters know that they are responsible for finding out where private land is and where to stay off it. same goes for wheelers. pick up a forest service map and grids. they will tell you where all the private land is.

[yota doug]

As a member of wagonmasters off road club our club has adopted a unwritten rule about the crystal gate........we access crystal mtn via moody hill and only use the crystal gate as a means of egress for emergencies. Because there are wheelers out there that are not from our surrounding area most dont understand that sometimes its ok to have an unwritten rule.

Dont get me wrong we know that the gate is legal to access crystal mtn,
we know we have an agressive club behavior towards land owners who try to play god. We know there is a guy up there who likes to booby trap mud holes and string wire accross the trail
at windshield height, we know that kids go up there and party and leave all there trash, dude I could go on and on.

My suggestion is to not worry about the gate and worry about still having
access to wheel up there.

p.s.- please close the gate behind you.....

[Mark]

Just an FYI, trouble maker Glenn Kostur has moved out of the area. He sold his 90 acres back in August.

Hopefully, this will bring an end to any violent confrontations, but I urge all users of the area to still treat it with respect. Just as you wouldn't want people tearing past your house, don't do it to theirs.

[KJBJEEPER]

I agree with everyone that has replied. The WagonMasters Off-Road club and the Horsetooth 4-Wheelers (both members of CoA4WDCI) have joined forces in adopting Crystal Mountain. We have been up there many times without a confrontation even though I know of some that have. The main thing is to use common sense and help to patrol the trail of wrongdoers. Also, take a trash bag and help out by picking up any trash you find along the way. The more we do, the better we look in everyone's eye.

Kerry

[nomo4x4]

Yep, been there done that, I'm assuming it was that guy, but two friends and myself went up to camp for the night and were approached by a guy carrying a rifle and a handgun, and two buddies also with guns, threatning us that we need to leave and that it was private properety and that there were fire bans, when there were not, and on and on... We had a single tent, two trucks, and a campfire with flames maybe reaching 12" high in a ring maybe 24" wide. This guy was a super &#@ hole. Either way I continued to hear about the "boobie traps" up there, I guess it worked for me, because that was the last time I was up there. I'm just superised some drunk dumb ass didn't end up in a shoot out with the guy. If hes the one and he's gone, GOOD! Dont get me wrong I completely agree with the privacy and laws and common respect that should be followed in ANY mountain area with or without homeowners. I hope the place shapes up. Just my .02.

[casper]

Keep using Crystal Mountain Road, but respect the landowners, drive slow.
If you stop using Crystal Mountain Road as an access, which is what the PITA guy wants, the access may be considered as an abandoned trail/access.

[yota doug]

It Will Never Be Considered As An Abandoned Trail Access Because
Of Its Multi-purpose As Access For Private Land Owners And As
Emergency Access.
I Think We Continue To Use This Gate As It Was Intended.
Besides When Lenora Closes Moody Hill And Crystal Mtn For The Season This Will Not Be An Issue....

[casper]

PS.
If you do try use this road and there is a locked gate, make it public, as soon as you can, preferably to the Sheriff then the FS. Even if they don't do anything.
Keep records.
I was told years ago by BLM, that where we were working we should have a set of bolt cutters in each vehicle because the ranchers didn't want anybody on their LEASED lands, and they would lock you in. (Keep you from getting home)
Well in the last several years I've used my bolt cutters more than I've used my Hi Lift.

[casper]

I don't think closure for the season is the issue.