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Colo.TJ
December 12th, 2010, 04:47 PM
So I was coming home w/ the fam and pulled up to a double lane stop light. At this particular light the right lane ends shortly after the light. There was a line of cars in the left lane anticipating the ending lane. I pulled up in the right hand lane as I was driving the Camaro thinking "no problem. I'll easily out accelerate the lead car/s and make the lane switch. There was a BMW leading the left lane. Not sure but I think it was a 335xi. He was about 8' off the white marker and I pulled up to just a few feet off. As we're sitting there I see him creep up to the line. I can tell he's anticipating the light change as he flinched a bit. First the turn lanes get their light. I'm basically ready for the light change and thinking it should be a non issue. The light changes and I hesitate a bit, but not much. The Beamer get's a slight jump. About 1-2 ft. I go. I realize immediately that I'm not really pulling him. At this point I'm a bit in shock. I know the Beamer is quick but I was NOT expecting THIS. I shift to second and I barely begin to pull him. He hits what I guess is third and pulls a bit from me. I'm so surprised that I held second to long and hit the rev limiter and it's pretty much over. He's kept his lane and I have to slow to make the merge and eventually my left.

I cannot tell you how much my ego hurt.:o I just got out driven and beaten by a 4 door sedan. I quickly look at the rear of the Beamer to see what model just killed me. Again I think it was a 335xi. First thing I do is get on the internet and go to BMW. I start looking at the models. I check the 3 series. 3.0 turbo, 300 hp. OK. I check the 5 series. Same motor. I check the 7 series. 315hp turbo base or a 400 hp turbo option.

"Ok. Pretty confident it was not a 7 series". I'm thinking. "WTF?" I should have easily pulled this douche. (He beat me so by default he's a douche.;))

Now I'm thinking he must have "massaged" that car bit.

You tell me. How does a 300hp turbo take my 400hp Camaro? I had the traction control on and had minimal to no tire spin. Yes he got a jump on me but still.

Anybody want to by a Camaro? I'll consider a trade for a BMW.:D Or is it time for the twins to get installed?

Steve
December 12th, 2010, 05:02 PM
You tell me. How does a 300hp turbo take my 400hp Camaro?

His BMW is probably a lot lighter than your heavy pig car.

Or you can't drive.

:flipoff2:

Colo.TJ
December 12th, 2010, 05:10 PM
His BMW is probably a lot lighter than your heavy pig car.

Or you can't drive.

:flipoff2:


Checked the websites and the Camaro is 46lbs. heavier. Must be my driving.:flipoff2:
I understand were comparing a turbo to NA but the extra 100hp I have should still give me the advantage.

Cresso
December 12th, 2010, 05:11 PM
A quick google search seems to indicate 0-60 times of 4.6-4.7 seconds for the Camaro and 4.8-4.9 for the 335xi. That ain't a whole lot of difference.

Colo.TJ
December 12th, 2010, 05:16 PM
A quick google search seems to indicate 0-60 times of 4.6-4.7 seconds for the Camaro and 4.8-4.9 for the 335xi. That ain't a whole lot of difference.

And that would be at or near sea level. High altitude and turbos make it a game changer.

I had pretty much decided not to mod the Camaro, at least for a while. Now I'm motivated. Twins may be in my near future.

It's killing me that some douche is on bmwsrule.com bragging 'bout how he killed a Camaro.:rant:

Colo.TJ
December 12th, 2010, 05:21 PM
I'm also kicking my self for breaking my own cardinal rule. "NEVER underestimate your opponent." and I did. My overconfidence bit me in the ass and it hurts.:o

scottycards
December 12th, 2010, 05:42 PM
Dude, WTF? You got spanked by a Beemer?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Throw a chip in it, and the Beemer is a quick car.

Dude, put a blower on yours. You will never have that issue again. Not turbos, just a big ol' blower. Edelbrock E force. I can help ya put it on. Then just take it over to Dragon for a tune. You'll need headers.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/company/images/2010npb/pdf/1-2.pdf

Get out your Visa. :thumbsup:

scottycards
December 12th, 2010, 05:48 PM
Here ya go. Hennessey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTGc_PTSBuE

Should I call my buddy Dave who runs the place, and get you scheduled in?

Steve
December 12th, 2010, 05:53 PM
Get out your Visa. :thumbsup:

Yup, for 10 grand or so he could beat the Beemer. :spit:


Drove a buddy's brandy new 5.0 Mustang last night. Pretty damn impressive. Laid down lots of rubber on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts, even with the traction control on.

scottycards
December 12th, 2010, 05:57 PM
The new 5.0's are sweet.

Can't wait to run into one on the street.

Loki
December 12th, 2010, 07:49 PM
I had pretty much decided not to mod the Camaro, at least for a while. Now I'm motivated. Twins may be in my near future.



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TbkIC-eqFNM/S0JXY0zGKNI/AAAAAAAAEyM/3FwcDvUoriw/s400/spanking.jpg

:flipoff2:

Colo.TJ
December 12th, 2010, 08:47 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TbkIC-eqFNM/S0JXY0zGKNI/AAAAAAAAEyM/3FwcDvUoriw/s400/spanking.jpg

:flipoff2:

Nail on head.:beer:

The Man With The Plan
December 12th, 2010, 11:43 PM
Tough call, but I'd say the turbo advantage @ altitude got you. Assuming it was a newer bimmer. They didn't start the turbos until last year IIRC. My wife's new X5 has that motor. Better economy, and better acceleration than her old N/A 3.0.

Just wait until the 1M coupe comes out in January! I'd seriously consider selling my Subie for one of those.

Mcstiff
December 13th, 2010, 11:12 AM
Did it look like this:

http://www.ardesign.info/media/var/resizes/335i/jmccottershoot8-7-08/_MG_4884.JPG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5K_2KJsD1c

MrMischief
December 13th, 2010, 01:34 PM
335xi's are rated at 300 hp, but they routinely put down more power then that at the dyno. Seems the average guestimate for actual crank hp of a 335xi is 330hp. They're also turbo so they don't lose as much up here as your NA motor does. Buddy of mine has a chip in his, he hasn't had it on the dyno with the chip, the company claims about 80 hp increase. I don't know if that's accurate, but he says it is much faster now. Before the chip he was able to keep up with his brother's GTO. After chip the GTO doesn't stand a chance. I haven't gone head to head with him in the charger, but I would anticipate loosing unless it got into the triple digit speeds. The Charger does a good job of annoying Camaros, and the Charger is definitely not the fastest thing on the street.

Here's a link to that chip. Apparently it defaults to map 3.
http://www.burgertuning.com/jb3.htm


btw: after seeing the deal my buddy got on his 335xi, if I can get my wife out of the Charger, the 335xi is the most likely replacement.

Colo.TJ
December 13th, 2010, 02:45 PM
btw: after seeing the deal my buddy got on his 335xi, if I can get my wife out of the Charger, the 335xi is the most likely replacement.

I may in the market as well. I told the wifey I was putting twins on the Camaro and she balked at me. Told me I could get a new car though.:shrug:

Mcstiff
December 13th, 2010, 03:04 PM
I may in the market as well. I told the wifey I was putting twins on the Camaro and she balked at me. Told me I could get a new car though.:shrug:

You're always going to be slower than somebody.

MrMischief
December 13th, 2010, 03:21 PM
I may in the market as well. I told the wifey I was putting twins on the Camaro and she balked at me. Told me I could get a new car though.:shrug:

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/

not so Quikjeep
December 13th, 2010, 03:22 PM
I'll race you. Then you can feel better when you beat a German designed 300+hp sedan. (Chrysler 300c)

Colo.TJ
December 13th, 2010, 03:33 PM
Dude, WTF? You got spanked by a Beemer?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Throw a chip in it, and the Beemer is a quick car.

Dude, put a blower on yours. You will never have that issue again. Not turbos, just a big ol' blower. Edelbrock E force. I can help ya put it on. Then just take it over to Dragon for a tune. You'll need headers.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/company/images/2010npb/pdf/1-2.pdf

Get out your Visa. :thumbsup:

The Z/28 should be announced soon. Available in 6-9 months. CTS-V motor and brakes plus some other goodies. But since I mentioned the CTS-V. "Honey, it has four doors:D."

MrMischief
December 13th, 2010, 03:47 PM
I'll race you. Then you can feel better when you beat a German designed 300+hp sedan. (Chrysler 300c)

Put a blower on the 5.7L and beat up on Camaro.

not so Quikjeep
December 13th, 2010, 04:13 PM
Put a blower on the 5.7L and beat up on Camaro.

I want to really bad. but its the wifes car:shrug:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YDamPYZ_vfr8jM:http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm32/Maistro69/bd671_12.jpg&t=1

MrMischief
December 13th, 2010, 05:01 PM
I want to really bad. but its the wifes car:shrug:

I have the same trouble with my Charger. But I don't think my wife would notice.

scottycards
December 13th, 2010, 06:47 PM
Dude, CTS-V.

/thread

I want one so bad I can taste it.

The Man With The Plan
December 13th, 2010, 07:03 PM
Pontiac G8. Same platform as CTS, essentially the same motor (can be tuned), and much less $$. Better looking IMHO too.

Too bad Pontiac has gone the way of the dodo.

Steve
December 13th, 2010, 07:57 PM
Dude, CTS-V.

/thread

I want one so bad I can taste it.

Battle of the Supercars on Speed Channel last night (can't stand Tanner or Paul Tracy but they test some amazing cars) was a CTS-V against a Mercedes C63 AMG. The Mercedes got spanked - bad - in every category. It's an amazing car.

Video is here. (http://www.streetfire.net/video/cadillac-ctsv-vs-mercedesbenz-e63-amg_2053159.htm)

scottycards
December 13th, 2010, 08:52 PM
I just watched the whole vid. Damn. Benz got spanked like ColoTJ at a stoplight.

hightimes2
December 13th, 2010, 09:30 PM
Dude, WTF? You got spanked by a Beemer?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Throw a chip in it, and the Beemer is a quick car.

Dude, put a blower on yours. You will never have that issue again. Not turbos, just a big ol' blower. Edelbrock E force. I can help ya put it on. Then just take it over to Dragon for a tune. You'll need headers.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/company/images/2010npb/pdf/1-2.pdf

Get out your Visa. :thumbsup:

dragon cant even tune their own cars :lmao:I wouldn't take anything to them

The Man With The Plan
December 13th, 2010, 09:54 PM
I just watched the whole vid. Damn. Benz got spanked like ColoTJ at a stoplight.

Ooooh! Damn that's cold!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

scottycards
December 14th, 2010, 04:42 AM
dragon cant even tune their own cars :lmao:I wouldn't take anything to them

do tell! Let's hear the story!

Colo.TJ
December 14th, 2010, 07:16 AM
I just watched the whole vid. Damn. Benz got spanked like ColoTJ at a stoplight.

Ouch.:flipoff2:

not so Quikjeep
December 14th, 2010, 08:38 AM
Battle of the Supercars on Speed Channel last night (can't stand Tanner or Paul Tracy but they test some amazing cars) was a CTS-V against a Mercedes C63 AMG. The Mercedes got spanked - bad - in every category. It's an amazing car.

Video is here. (http://www.streetfire.net/video/cadillac-ctsv-vs-mercedesbenz-e63-amg_2053159.htm)

Thats one of my favorite episodes. I want a CTS-V sooooooooooooo bad. Maybe when the price comes down a little more.

MrMischief
December 14th, 2010, 09:24 AM
Thats one of my favorite episodes. I want a CTS-V sooooooooooooo bad. Maybe when the price comes down a little more.

$17,500 isn't cheap enough for you?
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2104678001.html


I know you can find these all day long for under $20k.


here's one for $17k even
http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/2092972663.html

not so Quikjeep
December 14th, 2010, 09:50 AM
I want a second gen CTS-V. The first gen had 400hp the second gen had 556hp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS-V

hightimes2
December 14th, 2010, 11:16 AM
do tell! Let's hear the story!

never been impressed with any of their cars at the track and just some others storys I've heard about them. I'm not going to get into those because it's it's second hand info

MrMischief
December 14th, 2010, 11:22 AM
I want a second gen CTS-V. The first gen had 400hp the second gen had 556hp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS-V

Oh you're being picky! I understand then

MrMischief
December 14th, 2010, 11:30 AM
Might not want to get rid of that camaro just yet....

http://www.freep.com/article/20101205/BUSINESS01/12050458/1210/Business/Camaro-called-a-top-collectible


According to the Friends of the National Automotive History Collection, the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro is the most collectible car on sale right now. Each year, members of the organization get together to vote for the single domestically produced car or truck that's bound to be a good return on investment later down the line.

_CJ
December 14th, 2010, 11:39 AM
A 300 HP turbo is going to make 300+HP at our elevation. Your 400 HP NA V8 will make 300-325 because of the thin air. Add in the 200-300 pounds for the passengers in your car and you're on the losing side.

Traction control may have also hurt you too. Might have retarded the timing or something to keep the tires from spinning.....costing you even more power.

Cresso
December 14th, 2010, 11:43 AM
In the first six months of 2010, nearly 130,000 Camaros were built. Let's assume 250,000 for the year. How can that be a collectible?

Cresso
December 14th, 2010, 11:48 AM
A 300 HP turbo is going to make 300+HP at our elevation.

turbocharged engines still lose power at higher elevations, just not at quite the same rate as NA engines.

MrMischief
December 14th, 2010, 12:04 PM
In the first six months of 2010, nearly 130,000 Camaros were built. Let's assume 250,000 for the year. How can that be a collectible?

How many coke bottles were produced?

Mcstiff
December 14th, 2010, 12:17 PM
How many coke bottles were produced?

In that case the question is how many were recycled/thrown out. I have a 1/~1500 imported and its not worth much.

Cresso
December 14th, 2010, 12:23 PM
How many coke bottles were produced?

I have no idea. You can probably look it up on the internet. That doesn't answer my question, though.

Steve
December 14th, 2010, 12:34 PM
Except for some very limited production or special cars (ZR1, Shelby GT500, pace car editions, etc.) anyone trying to predict what new car sold right now in large numbers will become "collectible" and inflate in value in many years is doing nothing but making wild ass guesses.

Take the '55-'56 Chevy as an example. Those cars were produced in huge numbers and were not considered to be anything special or collectible at the time. Part of the reason they are now is that people didn't buy them to keep as collector cars, average families bought them to drive, so they didn't get put away as investments.

_CJ
December 14th, 2010, 01:16 PM
turbocharged engines still lose power at higher elevations, just not at quite the same rate as NA engines.

hmmmm, that's not what my friend (an engineer at Ford) found when he was testing on I-70 near the Eisenhower tunnel. In fact, he found that the turbos made more power there than they did at sea level.

MrMischief
December 14th, 2010, 01:33 PM
hmmmm, that's not what my friend (an engineer at Ford) found when he was testing on I-70 near the Eisenhower tunnel. In fact, he found that the turbos made more power there than they did at sea level.

Hmm.... that's not what pickuptrucks.com found when they put a silverado 3500 vs a F-350 head to head on I-70. Actually they found that both lost power, but the Ford lost a lot more due to its turbo design.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/11/chevy-vs-ford-in-heavy-duty-rumble-in-the-rockies.html

Cresso
December 14th, 2010, 02:24 PM
hmmmm, that's not what my friend (an engineer at Ford) found when he was testing on I-70 near the Eisenhower tunnel. In fact, he found that the turbos made more power there than they did at sea level.

Nah, not possible. Turbos spin a bit faster at higher altitude due to the thinner air, therefore they compress the air a little more than they would if they were spinning at the same speed as sea level (like with a supercharger). However, the density of the final result is still not as high as it would be at sea level.

The Man With The Plan
December 14th, 2010, 02:56 PM
Turbo compressors are driven by exhaust gas heat and pressure. ASSumming that the combustion pressures and temperatures are equal to sea-level, there would be a greater pressure differential on the hot-side of the turbo since the ambient pressure is lower. In other words, more available (potential) energy to spin the compressor wheel.

In most cases, I would guess that any gains would be negligible, if at all, since the compressor side would have the same conditions, but in reverse. But, there is some physics to support such a claim.

Mcstiff
December 14th, 2010, 03:01 PM
Play with this and tell me nothing changes http://www2.motorgeek.com/?fullpage=true&page=flowcalc

Turbos need to work harder for the same power at ALT; they can make the same power if the "work" is within the limits of performance.

You need to move ~20% more Ft³ @ 5000' to have the same number of mols of O₂.

scottycards
December 14th, 2010, 03:33 PM
McStiff's post is what I experienced with my fairly modified turbo car at altitude.

They lose power, not as much as N/A, and they produce a lot more heat. Higher boost=more pressure=more heat. They will soak, EGTs go thru the roof, and you have to back out.

FI>NA at elevation, but both make less power, and FI brings issues that NA does not experience., namely heat and EGT probs.

Cresso
December 14th, 2010, 03:57 PM
Be careful, though. FI also includes superchargers, which don't gain the same benefit as turbochargers. Superchargers spin at the same speed regardless of altitude, so they lose power at the same rate as NA as altitude increases.

Scott91MJ
December 14th, 2010, 06:31 PM
In the first six months of 2010, nearly 130,000 Camaros were built. Let's assume 250,000 for the year. How can that be a collectible?

that's the total number of MJ's ever produced:eek:

MrMischief
December 14th, 2010, 07:32 PM
In the first six months of 2010, nearly 130,000 Camaros were built. Let's assume 250,000 for the year. How can that be a collectible?

So I finally had a moment to go find the numbers on this....
total production for 2010 camaro: 129,405
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92742

I can't find numbers for the V8 to V6 for the final 2010, in the beginning about 65% of those were V8s. That number has probably fallen. Probably only around 84,000 or so "collectible" camaros were produced for 2010.

http://www.camaroblog.com/blog/1038764_2010-camaro-color-and-model-sales-breakdown-so-far

Cresso
December 14th, 2010, 10:18 PM
So I finally had a moment to go find the numbers on this....
total production for 2010 camaro: 129,405
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92742

I can't find numbers for the V8 to V6 for the final 2010, in the beginning about 65% of those were V8s. That number has probably fallen. Probably only around 84,000 or so "collectible" camaros were produced for 2010.

http://www.camaroblog.com/blog/1038764_2010-camaro-color-and-model-sales-breakdown-so-far

That's the exact same post I got my numbers from. I assumed that 130,000 produced by June of 2010 meant there was still another 6 months to go, which is why I doubled it. I guess they're done with that model year by June, though, and move on to 2011. y'know, because it makes so much sense to release a 2011 model in September of 2010...

Anyway, that still does nothing to answer my question. Thankfully, Steve answered it. Sounds like the best bet for making a Camaro increase in value is to hope that no one else thinks it'll ever increase in value.

Loki
December 15th, 2010, 11:16 AM
Sounds like the best bet for making a Camaro increase in value is to hope that no one else thinks it'll ever increase in value.

This is why I have a 1981 Plymouth Reliant K, with the 2.2 motor and wood panelling, hidden away for safe keeping.

Gonna be a rich man some day.... :idea:

:D