Winehouse back on the junk, in the slammer

[scottycards]

LONDON (Reuters) - Amy Winehouse was arrested on suspicion of drug offenses on Wednesday, police sources said.

The Grammy-winning soul singer, who was arrested for assault less than two weeks ago but released with a warning, was being held after she turned herself in at a London police station.

"At 1 p.m. (1200 GMT) on Wednesday, a 24-year-old woman attended a London police station by arrangement," police said in a statement. "She was arrested in connection with alleged possession of a controlled drug."

Police declined to give more details.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Boy, her Mom really hit the nail on the head with the "on the road to recovery" comment not too long ago.

Very sad. I missed it by a month when I said in Feb that the real cravings would begin in April- well, maybe that was right, I'm sure she's been using for a month now, and finally got busted.

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=116177&highlight=winehouse

[Leon Phelps]

Nice. Wino is back in the pokey. It's the eurotrash version of Britney.

[scottycards]

3 possible endings to this story:

1) Locked up
2) Sobered up
3) Covered up

[Steve]

3 possible endings to this story:

1) Locked up
2) Sobered up
3) Covered up

4) On drugs for life and end up looking like Keith Richards or Ozzie Osbourne.

[scottycards]

4) On drugs for life and end up looking like Keith Richards or Ozzie Osbourne.

Unfortunately, those guys are the very rare exception. So few people can ever endure a life of that stuff, but just seeing one or two make it like that will inspire many to give it a try.

"Hey, Keith Richards did it, so can I". Yeah, right. Ain't gonna happen.

If she could just get one moment of clarity, hire a personal counselor to be stapled to her side 24/7, the 100K a year it might cost her to do that would come back to her tenfold.

She is living a miserable feckin' life. Man, so very sad. Just looking at early pics of her, and then now, it makes you want to hurl.

http://www.americangirl.co.uk/images/amy_winehouse3_300.jpg

This is nice:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/newton27/winehouseWENN_468x727.jpg

[ZappBranigan]

4) On drugs for life and end up looking like Courtney Love. :eek:

Fixed it for ya.

The junkie lifestyle is rough on women.

[Dagimp]

This is nice:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/newton27/winehouseWENN_468x727.jpg

:eek: :barf: :eek: :barf: :eek: :barf: :eek: :barf: :eek: :barf: :eek: :barf:

[Gags]

Damn.

[scottycards]

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~beltran3587/436~Gollum-Posters.jpg

[Loki]

I'd hit it!

Fixed it for ya. :D

[scottycards]

She needs to drop a couple of pounds. Sirius.

[Loki]

She needs to drop a couple of pounds. Sirius.


a couple of pounds of hair.

[scottycards]

24 years old.

Damn.

[Gags]

Fixed it for ya. :D

I would just to say I did it. I wouldn't like it though. :flipoff2:

[CSP]

Did she hang out on the SDSU campus?

[Frank Z]

More pics to use when me and the wife have our conversations with the kids about dope and booze.

I feel sorry for her family. Her? No so much. You make poor decisions and you have to live (or die) with the consequences.

[scottycards]

More pics to use when me and the wife have our conversations with the kids about dope and booze.

I feel sorry for her family. Her? No so much. You make poor decisions and you have to live (or die) with the consequences.

http://www.facesofmeth.us/main.htm

Another good resource.

If you really want to educate them, take them to a CMA or AA meeting some time. Do it in a rough part of town if possible, where the real addicts are.

I feel sorry for her. I would bet 5 bucks she didn't set out to be a junkie. Few do.

One bad decision can lead to a life of addiction. It's a disease, not a character defect.

[Leon Phelps]

http://www.facesofmeth.us/main.htm

Another good resource.

If you really want to educate them, take them to a CMA or AA meeting some time. Do it in a rough part of town if possible, where the real addicts are.

I feel sorry for her. I would bet 5 bucks she didn't set out to be a junkie. Few do.

One bad decision can lead to a life of addiction. It's a disease, not a character defect.


Yup. Quoted for gospel and truth. :thumbsup:

[Gags]

http://www.facesofmeth.us/main.htm

Another good resource.

If you really want to educate them, take them to a CMA or AA meeting some time. Do it in a rough part of town if possible, where the real addicts are.

I feel sorry for her. I would bet 5 bucks she didn't set out to be a junkie. Few do.

One bad decision can lead to a life of addiction. It's a disease, not a character defect.

X2

[Frank Z]

Scotty,
I luv ya brother, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

When Daniel started working with me 3 summers ago he got a rude awaking just traveling around town doing service calls with me. Some of the places we worked and the people I have to deal with really freaked him out.

[Gags]

More pics to use when me and the wife have our conversations with the kids about dope and booze.

I feel sorry for her family. Her? No so much. You make poor decisions and you have to live (or die) with the consequences.

Damn, Frank.

[scottycards]

Scotty,
I luv ya brother, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

When Daniel started working with me 3 summers ago he got a rude awaking just traveling around town doing service calls with me. Some of the places we worked and the people I have to deal with really freaked him out.

No problem, man. I respect the heck out of you and your relationship with your son. He's a heck of an upstanding young man.

:thumbsup:

[Frank Z]

Thanks Scotty, I'll keep him around a bit longer.

[Gags]

No problem, man. I respect the heck out of you and your relationship with your son. He's a heck of an upstanding young man.

:thumbsup:

Ah yes, what a loving internet man embrace.

[scottycards]

Sad thing is, for Winehouse- there is hope- if she'll get off her ass and do some work.

I personally know a great guy who rebounded from this crap.

He was serving a LIFE SENTENCE in San Quentin, straightened up, got out on parole, and is now one of the finer people I know.

There is always hope, right up until the end. I've seen too many success stories.

My other friend- another "Star" quality person- less than 2 years ago, at the end of a 7 month meth binge- he ended up on the roof of his house, surrounded by police- full standoff in Thornton- soaked in gasoline, and couldn't get his Bic lighter to work. He wanted to set himself ablaze.

Now he's on the Governor's council of Colorado, helping addicts recover. Gives me chills to think how much of a turnaround he's managed.

These are the true stories of hope and success that happen to people every damn day.

[TwoDogs]

Try showing the kids the booking area of the Denver or Adams Conty jails on a Friday or Saturday night. THAT'LL get their attention. :eek:

[Batgirl]

...My other friend- another "Star" quality person- less than 2 years ago, at the end of a 7 month meth binge- he ended up on the roof of his house, surrounded by police- full standoff in Thornton- soaked in gasoline, and couldn't get his Bic lighter to work. He wanted to set himself ablaze.

Now he's on the Governor's council of Colorado, helping addicts recover. Gives me chills to think how much of a turnaround he's managed.

Great story, but you are now disqualified from running for President, Scotty ;)

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~beltran3587/436~Gollum-Posters.jpg

You know Jim's ex-wife? Small world!

[Frank Z]

That's how I look when I'm after the ol'lady for some action.

[Mack]

...less than 2 years ago, at the end of a 7 month meth binge...

Now he's on the ...

Not to be devil's advocate here, but I'd really hardly say that 2 years is a full recovery (with minimal chance of lapse) from a previous life of hard drugs, especially after a 7 month binge. I don't want to disqualify your friend's efforts, especially if he maintains his sobriety, but I also feel it's wrong to spread false hope for others who might have this or similar situations.

[SUPERGILDO43]

I would still hit it. someones got to, Ill take one for the team.

[scottycards]

Not to be devil's advocate here, but I'd really hardly say that 2 years is a full recovery (with minimal chance of lapse) from a previous life of hard drugs, especially after a 7 month binge. I don't want to disqualify your friend's efforts, especially if he maintains his sobriety, but I also feel it's wrong to spread false hope for others who might have this or similar situations.

You'll notice in the original thread back in Feb, that I was very careful to say to never give credit for a full recovery.

Addicts have a fatal disease that never goes away. Never. It's a lifetime deal. The good news is that the disease is treatable, and as long as they continue to treat it on a daily basis, they are recovered.

That being said, here is no such thing as false hope, however. There is only hope, and recovery. It can be done, and is done every day by millions of addicts. Of course, there are also many more millions who don't follow the necessary treatment procedures, and their disease comes back- and kills them.

It's a friggin' "harsh toke" when someone finds out that they have this disease, and that they'll have to treat it daily to be successful in living a good life, even though they have a fatal disease.

Even worse is the fact that this disease continues to progress, even when in remission. You take someone who's an addict, and if they stay clean for 2 years and start back on the junk- they'll be right back where they were at their worst in a very short period of time. There's no gradual buildup like in the beginning. A drinker will be back to a fifth a day, a junkie will be back to an 8 ball a day- within days, or at best, a few weeks.

No middle of the road solution has been found yet. You can't take an addict, and turn them into a "social drinker"- just doesn't happen. So it's all or nothing, much the same way they drank and used.

So, for anyone reading this who thinks they might have a problem and that they just need to "control" their drinking or drugging a little better- let me save you a WHOLE LOT of time and effort (and money/heartache)- give up- it won't EVER happen. Never.

Either ride that horse to the end of the line, or be ready to abstain, one day at a time, for the rest of your (much improved) life.

[starbreaker666]

The Meth addicts are fun to mess with..

[scottycards]

The Meth addicts are fun to mess with..

They are one paranoid, skittish bunch, aren't they? God, I'm glad I never went down that road.

Meth gets my vote for the worst of the worst substances, hands down.

[starbreaker666]

Whisper fun stuff into their ear and watch em go bonkers for hours. Very entertaining.

[RebelRescuer]

I don't feel sorry for her. She has every resource available to her and yet she doesn't make use of it. She's not like some broke, ghetto junkie. And that husband of hers...pshaw.

This girl has money, success, decent parents, and yet won't get herself help. THAT I have no tolerance for.

[SUPERGILDO43]

This girl has money...

thats why I would still hit it.


Im smarter than you all think!

[Oscar]

Well that isn't saying much :D

[Mack]

You'll notice in the original thread back in Feb, that I was very careful to say to never give credit for a full recovery.

Addicts have a fatal disease that never goes away. Never. It's a lifetime deal. The good news is that the disease is treatable, and as long as they continue to treat it on a daily basis, they are recovered.

That being said, here is no such thing as false hope, however. There is only hope, and recovery. It can be done, and is done every day by millions of addicts. Of course, there are also many more millions who don't follow the necessary treatment procedures, and their disease comes back- and kills them.

It's a friggin' "harsh toke" when someone finds out that they have this disease, and that they'll have to treat it daily to be successful in living a good life, even though they have a fatal disease.

Even worse is the fact that this disease continues to progress, even when in remission. You take someone who's an addict, and if they stay clean for 2 years and start back on the junk- they'll be right back where they were at their worst in a very short period of time. There's no gradual buildup like in the beginning. A drinker will be back to a fifth a day, a junkie will be back to an 8 ball a day- within days, or at best, a few weeks.

No middle of the road solution has been found yet. You can't take an addict, and turn them into a "social drinker"- just doesn't happen. So it's all or nothing, much the same way they drank and used.

So, for anyone reading this who thinks they might have a problem and that they just need to "control" their drinking or drugging a little better- let me save you a WHOLE LOT of time and effort (and money/heartache)- give up- it won't EVER happen. Never.

Either ride that horse to the end of the line, or be ready to abstain, one day at a time, for the rest of your (much improved) life.

Don't remember the original thread, but definitely agree with all your points. :thumbsup:

[Steve]

At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify. Every drug addict started out clean and made a conscious, rational choice to use drugs. Any one of us could become a meth addict if we chose to start using it, but we don't all have a disease.

Yeah, once you're addicted maybe you can call it that, but it started with a choice; it's not something you're born with, "catch" from someone else, or develop like most real diseases.

Winehouse gets no sympathy from me.

[newracer]

There is some evidence that addiction, weather it be to drugs or alcohol is hereditary. :stirpot:

[SUPERGILDO43]

At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify. Every drug addict started out clean and made a conscious, rational choice to use drugs. Any one of us could become a meth addict if we chose to start using it, but we don't all have a disease.

Yeah, once you're addicted maybe you can call it that, but it started with a choice; it's not something you're born with, "catch" from someone else, or develop like most real diseases.

Winehouse gets no sympathy from me.

I disagree, maybe not on the disease classification part, thats a fine line but some people are definately more inclined to be addicts. theres a reason other than just experimentation gone too far...

[CannonBall]

At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify. Every drug addict started out clean and made a conscious, rational choice to use drugs. Any one of us could become a meth addict if we chose to start using it, but we don't all have a disease.

Yeah, once you're addicted maybe you can call it that, but it started with a choice; it's not something you're born with, "catch" from someone else, or develop like most real diseases.

Winehouse gets no sympathy from me.


beat me to it, x2 on the not a disease.

To call addiction a disease removes any personal responsibility from the situation and makes the ?diseased? a victim. When someone gives up personal responsibility and just says they have a disease how can they be held accountable for any actions they take? Oh but that?s the point. Using the victim definition, any character flaw can be considered a disease and written off as excusable or lumped into ?I couldn?t control myself, I had a disease.? Junkie losers get very little sympathy from me, especially when they ?recover? and get on their high horse about how they?ve over come so much and we who don?t use couldn?t possibly understand.
-Nate

-Nate

[SUPERGILDO43]

Is mental illness a disease?

[CannonBall]

Some forms of mental illness may qualify as diseases, addiction, no.
-Nate

[SUPERGILDO43]

some forms of mental illness are diseases and some are not?

where are you able to draw the line? mental weakness which seems to me to be a cause of addiction can be called a mental illness. IMHO...

[scottycards]

There is some evidence that addiction, weather it be to drugs or alcohol is hereditary. :stirpot:

Some? Plenty.

The experts (maybe not the CO4X4 experts) agree it's a disease- it's not a virus, or a cancer, but the overwhelming majority of the medical community agrees that it's a disease-

I don't post this to argue, only to help people understand, in the hopes that a greater understanding of this issue will assist in their ability to comprehend what addiction is about- there is a lot of misinformation out there, and I only want to help- someday, each of us will be affected by this to some degree.

I hope it helps someone on this board, someday. :thumbsup:

The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence

Definition of Alcoholism
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial."

"Primary" refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it.

"Primary" suggests that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an underlying disease state.

"Disease" means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage.

"Often progressive and fatal" means that the disease persists over time and that physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic events.

"Impaired control" means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking.

"Preoccupation" in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of energies away from important life concerns.

"Adverse consequences" are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease, gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g., impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and legal, financial, or spiritual problems.

"Denial" is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the disease and a major obstacle to recovery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (February 25, 1990).

This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine:

Convenors: Robert M. Morse, MD, Joint Committee Chairman; Daniel K. Flavin, MD, NCADD Medical/Scientific Director

Members: Daniel J. Anderson, PhD; Margaret Bean-Bayog, MD; Henri Begleiter MD, PhD; Sheila B. Blume, MD, CAC; Jean Forest, MD; Stanley E. Gitlow, MD; Enoch Gordis, MD; James E. Kelsey, MD; Nancy K. Mello, PhD; Roger E. Meyer, MD; Robert G. Niven, MD; Ann Noll; Barton Pakull, MD; Katherine K. Pike; Lucy Barry Robe; Max A. Schneider, MD; Marc Schuckit, MD; David E. Smith, MD; Emanuel M. Steindler; Boris Tabakoff, PhD; George Vaillant, MD

Members Ex-Officio: James Callahan, DPA; Jasper Chen-See, MD; Robert D. Sparks, MD

Emeritus Consultant: Frank A. Seixas, MD

[scottycards]

beat me to it, x2 on the not a disease.

To call addiction a disease removes any personal responsibility from the situation and makes the ?diseased? a victim. When someone gives up personal responsibility and just says they have a disease how can they be held accountable for any actions they take? Oh but that?s the point. Using the victim definition, any character flaw can be considered a disease and written off as excusable or lumped into ?I couldn?t control myself, I had a disease.? Junkie losers get very little sympathy from me, especially when they ?recover? and get on their high horse about how they?ve over come so much and we who don?t use couldn?t possibly understand.
-Nate

-Nate

And the "junkie losers" are on a high horse? Don't fall off yours, Mr. I'm Better Than So Many Others of Weak Willpower.........

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sometimes it's better to be called an idiot, than to open your mouth and confirm it. Regarding this topic, I'd suggest you stay quiet.

[newracer]

Some? Plenty.


I have seen it first hand, my step-father is an alcoholic, so is his father. My father is an alcoholic/drug addict, so was my grandfather and grandmother. I am actually surprised that I am not. Of course I have never done any drugs but I do drink occasionally.

[Steve]

In my post I qualified it by saying "At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify." So, it's somewhat semantics with me. To me, a disease is something you have zero choice in; it just happens to you. Drug addiction isn't that way. You don't become addicted to drugs unless and until you make a decision to break a law and try drugs. Never try them and you will never become an addict regardless of what "genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors" are present.

:shrug:

[scottycards]

I have seen it first hand, my step-father is an alcoholic, so is his father. My father is an alcoholic/drug addict, so was my grandfather and grandmother. I am actually surprised that I am not. Of course I have never done any drugs but I do drink occasionally.

Tons of data to support this:

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/berman/genetic/

Google "addiction genetic" for lots more. It's pretty much a given, at this point.

[newracer]

In my post I qualified it by saying "At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify." So, it's somewhat semantics with me. To me, a disease is something you have zero choice in; it just happens to you. Drug addiction isn't that way. You don't become addicted to drugs unless and until you make a decision to break a law and try drugs. Never try them and you will never become an addict regardless of what "genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors" are present.

:shrug:

There are plenty of people addicted to legally prescribed drugs. :stirpot:

[Steve]

There are plenty of people addicted to legally prescribed drugs. :stirpot:

Valid point. :thumbsup:

[scottycards]

In my post I qualified it by saying "At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify." So, it's somewhat semantics with me. To me, a disease is something you have zero choice in; it just happens to you. Drug addiction isn't that way. You don't become addicted to drugs unless and until you make a decision to break a law and try drugs. Never try them and you will never become an addict regardless of what "genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors" are present.

:shrug:

What about legal painkillers, or booze? Both legal. An addict cannot control him/herself once they get started.

So you can take a drink, legally, and wind up an alcoholic- you've done nothing illegal, and certainly it's not your intention to become an alcoholic- it's how your body and mind react to the chemical- it is NOT a choice for all- for most people, it's a choice, for the alcoholic, not so much. :thumbsup:

I won't argue it, but would only request you open your mind to at least looking at the possibility that there is more info out there that you may not be fully aware of.

[Steve]

I won't argue it, but would only request you open your mind to at least looking at the possibility that there is more info out there that you may not be fully aware of.

Agreed. There are no addicts of any kind in my or Kathy's family, so my experience is very limited.

[SUPERGILDO43]

In my post I qualified it by saying "At least in my definition of "disease" drug addiction does not even remotely qualify." So, it's somewhat semantics with me. To me, a disease is something you have zero choice in; it just happens to you. Drug addiction isn't that way. You don't become addicted to drugs unless and until you make a decision to break a law and try drugs. Never try them and you will never become an addict regardless of what "genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors" are present.

:shrug:

you can call it however you see it but I have never seen a scientific diagnosis saying "a disease is something you have zero choice in; it just happens to you"

thats the base of this opinion and its not very concrete to base much of a conclusion, IIMHO

[scottycards]

Agreed. There are no addicts of any kind in my or Kathy's family, so my experience is very limited.

I know you're open minded to learning. Another subject has been discussed here and I noticed where you landed vs. the "hardass justice" people due to your personal experience.

Experience on the topic brings a whole new viewpoint, sometimes.

Watching a family member who is dying from this deal currently is a friggin' TOUGH thing to see. We don't know how long this person is going to last.

[Leon Phelps]

Lotta arm chairing in dis here thread:stirpot:

[Sound_Man]

That's how I look when I'm after the ol'lady for some action.

Try this line instead
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=122690 :flipoff2:

Lotta arm chairing in dis here thread:stirpot:
yuppers

[CannonBall]

Alcoholism runs in my family, yet I can control my drinking. I was way fatter than I am now, but managed to control my eating. Others in my family have literally NEVER had a drink, because they are aware of the potential consequences. Again, all of these people have made choices in their lives to get to where they are now. No one is ever told coke, meth, heroin, is good for you, no one can claim they didn?t know it was bad or ?addictive,? yet they chose to do it once, twice, each time, and by telling them they have no control over themselves it gives those people an excuse to keep spiraling downward. I?m not on a high horse at all, if people choose to do drugs that?s fine, I?m for legalizing them, but people need to accept responsibility for their own actions and not blame them on phantom diseases. I realize a lot of people get brainwashed by the 12 step AA type program, very close family members have gone through it, so I am intimately familiar with being lectured about how they were not in control of themselves, passing their responsibility onto a higher power, ?something I could never possibly understand.? If it takes being passed out in a gutter for me to ?get it? I?ll pass.
-Nate

Edit: As far as actual diseases go? I have little sympathy again for anyone who contracts HIV in America this day and age. Risky lifestyles often result in unfortunate outcomes.
It?s unfortunate when a sky diver has a chute fail, a skier crashes, or a rock climber falls and dies. People take risks every day in their lives and have to deal with the consequences, there are studies that say people are inclined to be adrenaline junkies, but they don?t generally get treated as succumbing to a disease if they get hurt getting their ?fix.?

[scottycards]

Alcoholism runs in my family, yet I can control my drinking.-Nate

At what, 25 years old? Just by that statement, you are showing you know little, if anything about alcoholism.

Do a little reading up, instead of judging "brainwashed AA people who have phantom diseases", and get back to me, mkay?

Might want to talk to some of the aforementioned PhD's about their definition of "phantom disease" as well, while you're at it.

I've got way too much time and experience on this subject to continue any kind of response to such an uneducated opinion. Go learn at least something about this, and then we'll talk on a rational, educated, knowledgable level.

:beer:

[SUPERGILDO43]

Alcoholism runs in my family, yet I can control my drinking. I was way fatter than I am now, but managed to control my eating. Others in my family have literally NEVER had a drink, because they are aware of the potential consequences. Again, all of these people have made choices in their lives to get to where they are now. No one is ever told coke, meth, heroin, is good for you, no one can claim they didn?t know it was bad or ?addictive,? yet they chose to do it once, twice, each time, and by telling them they have no control over themselves it gives those people an excuse to keep spiraling downward. I?m not on a high horse at all, if people choose to do drugs that?s fine, I?m for legalizing them, but people need to accept responsibility for their own actions and not blame them on phantom diseases. I realize a lot of people get brainwashed by the 12 step AA type program, very close family members have gone through it, so I am intimately familiar with being lectured about how they were not in control of themselves, passing their responsibility onto a higher power, ?something I could never possibly understand.? If it takes being passed out in a gutter for me to ?get it? I?ll pass.
-Nate


thats BS, just because someone has chosen never to have a drink, or toke up or pop pills doesnt mean the addictive personality isnt there. some people have addictive personalities. they may have addictions that arent substance related BUT IT IS STILL THERE. period.

[Steve]

you can call it however you see it but...

thats BS...

You do realize, I assume, that other people sometimes have different opinions than yours and that it's okay? :flipoff2:

[Oscar]

Yea I got an addicting disease. I blame Eric for providing the drug of my addiction this board :flipoff2:
My sister who has a different dad is an addict he was an alcoholic. She is a wreak but my other sister same dad as the first is fine. So does it run in families I say maybe.

[JKTODD]

Eric is the dealer and we are all junkies!:flipoff2:

[SUPERGILDO43]

You do realize, I assume, that other people sometimes have different opinions than yours and that it's okay? :flipoff2:

yeah but if I wasnt always right, why do I fight so hard to prove it? :flipoff2:

[CannonBall]

Well, I had family members in AA at 23. Generally those who use age as an argument have a weak counterpoint. Again you admit you have time invested in this and a dog in the fight, so you?d never admit that it was all a wash. There are plenty of programs that get people to take responsibility for their actions and not pawn them off to God. I?m fine with helping people who are hooked, but my issue is with victimizing them and removing personal responsibility from the equation, it has been shown that this actually compounds the problem. Honestly, I?ve read enough to understand that addiction is a choice, you disagree, and I?ll concede that there is evidence for both arguments; I found the non-victimizing arguments more convincing. I can site doctors with PhDs, scientific studies, or personal experience, but it won?t change your mind, so there?s no point. My opinion, while callous, is by no means uneducated.
-Nate

[TONIC]

Nice. Wino is back in the pokey. It's the eurotrash version of Britney.

Perfect discription of her! minus the kids :D

[RebelRescuer]

I smoke is that a disease or an addiction? Because if its a disease, then I'm gonna sue the s**t out of the state for not allowing my handicap in public places.

Just sayin...

[scottycards]

Well, I had family members in AA at 23. Generally those who use age as an argument have a weak counterpoint. Again you admit you have time invested in this and a dog in the fight, so you?d never admit that it was all a wash. There are plenty of programs that get people to take responsibility for their actions and not pawn them off to God. I?m fine with helping people who are hooked, but my issue is with victimizing them and removing personal responsibility from the equation, it has been shown that this actually compounds the problem. Honestly, I?ve read enough to understand that addiction is a choice, you disagree, and I?ll concede that there is evidence for both arguments; I found the non-victimizing arguments more convincing. I can site doctors with PhDs, scientific studies, or personal experience, but it won?t change your mind, so there?s no point. My opinion, while callous, is by no means uneducated.
-Nate

Your understanding of AA is incorrect. This is not opinion, it's fact.

There is nothing in the AA program where you hand responsibility for your past actions to God. Nothing.

In fact, the 9th step requires a person to take full responsibility for their actions, and make direct amends (in kind) to that person, except when to do so would harm them or others.

I'm sorry, but your knowledge is simply not correct, and therefore, uneducated.

As for the age thing- again, you're mistaken. Here's how you can learn:

Go to an AA meeting. This will take one hour of your time.

Ask the group how many of them had no problem controlling their drinking at age 25.

My bet is that over 75% of the group will be happy to tell you how fun it was to drink at age 25, how it worked very well for them.

Few are an alcoholic after the first time drinking. It's a progressive disease- it's never bad at first, and that's why alcoholics continue to drink- they get laid, have fun times, and really enjoy the drinking! Why not do it more?

Then it turns on them, once it's too late. What used to be their best friend (booze), becomes their enemy- it ruins their health, their mental state, and pretty much everything.

Then the hard part- they continue to drink, hoping to recapture those good times back at age 25, and it never hapens. They drink more, in hopes of getting back to that great high of times past................and more, and more.

If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a beer and a shot of your choice at the next M&G.

[ZappBranigan]

Lotta arm chairing in dis here thread:stirpot:

Which makes it pretty much like every other thread in General Chit Chat! :D

[Leon Phelps]

Which makes it pretty much like every other thread in General Chit Chat! :D

True. Substance abuse is something I don't take lightly..... from too much personal experience in the matter.

[CannonBall]

? Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
? Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
? Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
? Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
? Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
? Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
? Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
? Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
? Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
? Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
? Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
? Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Once you?ve turned over all free will and accountability for your actions, then you can apologize to people (I?ve been on the receiving end of that) knowing that you weren?t in control of yourself because your addiction is not your choice but rather a defect to which you could not control. It?s a lot easier to admit to something when you aren?t directly accepting responsibility. These programs have no higher success rate than cold turkey.
-Nate

[SUPERGILDO43]

True. Substance abuse is something I don't take lightly..... from too much personal experience in the matter.

says the self proclaimed "cocktail king of denver" :flipoff2:

[bender]

good thing I dont watch the news or I might`ve known who this chic is, or given a shit about her drug problem.



she did look pretty hot in the before pic though.

[Leon Phelps]

says the self proclaimed "cocktail king of denver" :flipoff2:

The Cocktail King of Denver is not self proclaimed, that title was given to me :o

But Yes, I've been through drug abuse (from more than one illegal drug) and severe alcohol abuse. I'm hard headed, stubborn and determined to beat the demons. Trust me, I'm not perfect and I fall off the wagon, often. I've lived through more hell than most care deal with in a life time.

[SUPERGILDO43]

The Cocktail King of Denver is not self proclaimed, that title was given to me :o

But Yes, I've been through drug abuse (from more than one illegal drug) and severe alcohol abuse. I'm hard headed, stubborn and determined to beat the demons. Trust me, I'm not perfect and I fall off the wagon, often. I've lived through more hell than most care deal with in a life time.

hey dude, dont get serious on me. I was joshin ya. youre takin all the fun out of it!! :P

[scottycards]

Once you?ve turned over all free will and accountability for your actions, then you can apologize to people (I?ve been on the receiving end of that) knowing that you weren?t in control of yourself because your addiction is not your choice but rather a defect to which you could not control. It?s a lot easier to admit to something when you aren?t directly accepting responsibility. These programs have no higher success rate than cold turkey.
-Nate

The only reason I'm relplying is to help others, I don't care what your opinions are, and I understand they're not going to change.

Wow- a step study on the 4X4 board- how refreshing. I spend like 15 hours a week studying this stuff in depth..........this is great!

With that said:

"powerless over alcohol". You hilighted it, so I assume that's what you'd like to discuss- it's correct- the alcoholic cannot exercise power over alcohol. Every single other aspect of their lives are under control of the alcoholic- there's only one thing in the world an alcoholic can't do- drink alcohol. It says NOTHING about anything else.

"a power greater than ourselves" This is nothing more than an acknowledgement of a higher power. It has nothing to do with booze, responsibility, or anything else. It's simply stating that one has come to believe in a higher power, and most choose to use the word God.

"our will and our lives over to the care of God" Again, no mention of responsibility here, either. It simply means that the alcoholic will let God take care of them, and they will try to follow God's guidance (achieved by prayer/meditation (term used for those uncomfortable with the concept of prayer) in the daily reflection of one's activities).

"ready to have God remove all these defects"- Nate, do you even know what the defects (as defined by the program) are? They are things like selfishness, dishonesty, false-pride/envy. Those are character defects. Again, no mention of personal responsibility being handed over to anyone.

"humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings"- all this step does is let the alcoholic say to God- "Hey God, can you help me to not be such an asshole on a daily basis, and work to be a better person?". Really, that's it- that's all this step is. Nothing more.

So again, you turn your will over to God, because, as an alcoholic, your will got you to the fawked up life you're living, and in the rooms of AA. His will gets you a life of freedom, giving, caring for others- that kind of thing, instead of the self-centered, cheating, lying life of an addict.

You don't apologize to people- drunks apologize, alcoholics make amends. You obviously do not possess the knowledge to make that disctinction- amends entail setting right the things you have done wrong in the past- if you bilked someone out of $500, you don't say sorry, you show up with a check for $500.

Starting to get it now? Maybe the people you've been around haven't been doing their program correctly, and hence their horrible rate of relapse. The steps must be done correctly- if they are not done correctly, back to the booze and miserable life for you!

The successful person in recovery will accept ALL responsibility for their actions, both past and present. If you'd take the time to read the whopping 164 pages of the book of Alcoholics Anonymous, you'd see this. It's right there, in black and white. It says "we neither regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it".

As for the success rate, well, your success depends on your willingness to do what the program requires. Most are not willing, on some level, whether it's a conscious level or sub-conscious.

I just had to let a guy that I've been working with for over 6 months go. He was not willing to do the program as it's outlined in the book. Guess what? He kept relapsing.

Another guy I'm working with? Meth, coke and booze? Sober. Job is going well, finances are going well. Life is great for him. He works his program on a daily basis, and accepts COMPLETE responsibility for his actions, both past and present.

I noticed you didn't take me up of my offer. Oh well, I'll buy you a beer and shot anyways. :beer:

[Steve]

Oh well, I'll buy you a beer and shot anyways. :beer:

I guess I quit arguing too quickly, I didn't get that offer. :flipoff2:

Not that I drink much anyway... :shrug:

[scottycards]

I guess I quit arguing too quickly, I didn't get that offer. :flipoff2:

Not that I drink much anyway... :shrug:

Here's your deal, Steve- You tell me where those turns I can't see coming up at 165 are, and I'm buying rounds. I don't have to buy if you screw up, because we'll both be dead. No pressure, tho. :P

It's so much cheaper for me. This way, I'm buying a few shots for one or two people, I used to buy not only myself a shot and beer, but pretty much everyone around me- I was a really generous (read: stupid) drunk!

:D :D :D

[Steve]

Here's your deal, Steve- You tell me where those turns I can't see coming up at 165 are, and I'm buying rounds. I don't have to buy if you screw up, because we'll both be dead. No pressure, tho. :P

When ya put it in those terms it sounds like a good deal. ;)

[CannonBall]

I?ve talked with several alcoholics in great detail about their problem, none had relapsed the least is ~4 years sober highest over 15 years. Most of them realize in hindsight that at a young age they had a bad problem, but were better able to hide it or deal with it. A lot of the alcoholic behavior is often written off as being young and just partying a lot. Also, those same people would hang out with others who had similar lifestyles, the problems arise when the ?kids? grow out of it, and the drunks continue to close out bars, pass out in their cars, get DUI?s, drunk crash their bike (no drivers license) into a cop car leaving a bar, etc. Call me young, call me ignorant, whatever makes you feel better.

I?m not referring to the people I know in the relapse rate, I?m referring to studies done comparing the success rate of 12 stepping to other programs and/or cold turkey. You seem to have your own interpretation of what is written, for me, when I read that someone is ?powerless? over something they give up responsibility for that. They are powerless to prevent a lighting strike, to prevent a baby dying from SIDS, to prevent cancer. If someone wants to quit but needs help, there are lots of programs that don?t make you admit you are powerless, or admit that you need Gods help, as a matter of fact, they work the other way. Having someone there helps, having someone to talk to about the problem helps, people who relate, etc, you don?t need to give up free will and say you have a disease in order to stop doing drugs.

If you read those 12 steps and claim there is some basis in science, fine, that?s your prerogative; I 100% disagree with you. You should read literature to the opposite of your opinion, there is a LOT of research that exposes the fraud of calling addiction a disease and again shines a light on the questionable ?science? that backs up the 12 step farce. Do they have a program to get people off their addiction to programs? Sorry, not interested in a beer or a shot, I might catch that alcohol disease.
-Nate

[scottycards]

I'm not sure I ever said a 12 step program was superior (or inferior) to any other method of recovery.

If I did, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I didn't. So I'm not quite sure where you're going with that. Maybe some resentment towards the 12 step program or something, I'm guessing?

My interpretation of the steps? Hardly! The steps are very clearly written, and leave little room for interpretation- remember, they're written for highly screwed up alcoholics, who need clear directions, not some fuzzy set of words that require any kind of interpretation.

Back in the 40's, when the steps were written, most AA's were in hospitals or sanitariums- barely coherent. There's nothing I'm "interpreting" about the steps- maybe you are interpreting them.

Being powerless has nothing to do with responsibility. I may be powerless over blow and hookers, but since I partake of neither, I bear FULL responsibility to my actions with regards to blow and hookers.

You have a disconnect in your rationalization there.

I also make no claims to the 12 steps being based in science, so I'm not sure where you're going with that. Quite the opposite- they are based in spirituality.

There is no "questionable science" to back up the "12 step farce".

Why your anger and resentment toward a program that has helped millions to live better lives?

Nate- I'm sorry you feel defensive. It seems you just don't like AA for some reason, and you feel the need to attack the program.

Let it go, man. It's not hurting you. I pray you don't catch "that alcohol disease". If it's in your family, you very likely do have a predisposition towards it, tho. Just remember- if it happens to you- it ain't your choice to become an alcoholic- you'll wake up one day- just like every other alcoholic- and you'll be like "how the hell did this happen?"

Maybe at that time, this thread will come to mind. There is help out there if you, or anyone you know, ever needs it.

[Oscar]

Frankly I dont caree if its 12 step 20 step or whatever if something help an addict out who cares how it worked

[Steve]

End of round 1. Round 2 will begin shortly.

[Leon Phelps]

End of round 1. Round 2 will begin shortly.

:beer:

I want this to go the distance, unlike a real boxing match.

/goes back to watching the Cards/Rockies game.....

[scottycards]

:beer:

I want this to go the distance, unlike a real boxing match.

/goes back to watching the Cards/Rockies game.....

You guys are jackazzes. :flipoff2:

I'm going to MOAB tomorrow, can't focus here at work, and have put off my damn forecast all day, screwing around here trying to explain something I probably should save for someone who really wants/needs it.

Jeezbus, what the heck am I doing??????? :silly: :silly: :silly:

[Oscar]

Moab is closed

[CannonBall]

My whole point is that it IS MY CHOICE and that when you take the choice out of it you create a victim. That is what I?m against, 12 stepping makes one a victim of their addiction, other programs don?t. So in that way, yes I have a problem with 12 stepping. The reason I brought it up in the first place was because it makes up a disease to further separate the actions of the person from their responsibility. By your logic an alcoholic can no more be held accountable for his actions than an albino can be held accountable for being white? and you say I have a logical disconnect. If you believe that statement is true, we have nothing to discuss, agree to disagree.

When you are powerless and give control of something over to a higher power you are no longer responsible for it, I don?t know how you can read that and not come to that conclusion. Maybe if I get drunk and read the 12 steps it will make sense. Perhaps I may post up at a later date. ?By powerless it in fact means in control, ahh I see? ?and you say I have a logical disconnect. If I have a disease I don?t want to ask God to cleanse me, I want a doctor, some pills, and an IV. If I have a behavioral problem, maybe a group will help.
-Nate

[Steve]

Round 2 is now on. The judges have awarded a split decision to scottycards for round 1 by the score of 6 to 4.

[Oscar]

What are the punchbot stats?

[SUPERGILDO43]

steve rubbed his old off on this thread and it is now boring. :flipoff2:

[scottycards]

[working on forecast, must resist- I'm bumping my forecast like 40%, since we're kicking butt!!!!!]

Quote from the book: AA is a program of attraction, not promotion.

I apologize if I came across as promoting- I was trying to help, but may have gotten off track.

So, I'm going to follow the clear directions, and not promote this thing further. If someone wants info, PM me.

Oscar: You're as bad as Leon and Steve- :flipoff2:

I have a key to Moab, so I can let myself in since they're closed.

[Leon Phelps]

What are the punchbot stats?

Where is Larry Merchant and Max Keller for the commentary.

Oh, wait. Merchant is at the 40/40 crushing a cocktail.

Come on Max.