The truth about high gas prices and the so called "refinary" bottleneck..

[potter]

Since 1990, US oil consumption has only increased about 3.7 million barrels.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mttupus2a.htm

The last 5 years has been fairly consistent with a slight 1 million barrel increase.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_psup_dc_nus_mbblpd_a.htm

Current refinaries are ONLY running 80%-85% of capacity
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_wiup_dcu_nus_w.htm

Internal Chevron document, November 30, 1995
A senior energy analyst at the recent API (American Petroleum Institute) convention warned that if the U.S. petroleum industry doesn?t reduce its refining capacity, it will never see any substantial increase in refining margins? However, refining utilization has been rising, sustaining high levels of operations, thereby keeping prices low.

Internal Texaco document, March 7, 1996
As observed over the last few years and as projected well into the future, the most critical factor facing the refining industry on the West Coast is the surplus refining capacity, and the surplus gasoline production capacity. The same situation exists for the entire U.S. refining industry. Supply significantly exceeds demand year-round. This results in very poor refinery margins, and very poor refinery financial results. Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline.

Taken from the Wyden report of 2001.

In the mid-1990s too much refining capacity, not too little, concerned the nation?s major oil companies. At that time, the oil and gas industry faced what they termed ?excess refining capacity,? a circumstance they viewed as a financial liability that drove down overall profit margins. The industry reduced the total amount of potential supply by closing down more than 50 refineries in the past decade. Since 1995 alone, 24 refinery closings have taken nearly 830,000 barrels of oil per day.

On June 11, 2001, the Wall Street Journal reported that Marathon Ashland Petroleum intentionally withheld reformulated gasoline supply in the Midwest in a contrived effort to keep prices, and profits, artificially high.3 Although Marathon was reported to have operated alone in this instance, documents suggest that over the past five years other leading oil companies have worked together to control the amount of gasoline available on the market.

There's more... Read it yourself...
http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/wyden_oil_report.pdf

:deadhorse: :D

[Colo.TJ]

Careful. You'll be asked to take off your tin foil hat.
Big oil just wants to be our friend. They would never take advantage of the general public to increase profits.

/sarcasm off/

[Jake_Blues]

I don't see how any of this is bad. If any other company had extra capacity sitting around, they would close/mothball it too. And if there isn't enough demand for a product to make profit on it, why ship it? Wait till there is demand for it, then sell it. Business 101.

-E

[JKTODD]

I know DeBeers stock piles diamonds. If you want to read about shady business practices look into them. They actually sold diamonds for industry purposes to Germany and America during WWII.

[Steve]

Careful. You'll be asked to take off your tin foil hat.

Potter, take off your tinfoil hat.

Yes, US demand is fairly flat. So is world oil supply. Unfortunately, world oil demand is anything but flat. Pick up the newest National Geographic magazine; the entire issue is on China. There's a very enlightening article about their past, current and projected future oil demand, mainly due to vehicles. If you think world oil supply/demand/prices are bad now you ain't seen nothin' yet.

But yeah, damn those big oil companies and their obscene 10% profit margins. That's just wrong. :rolleyes:

[scottycards]

I can't wait for gas to get to 5 bucks. Then, I hope it goes to $6.00.

It would be the best thing that could happen to us.

Over $122 per barrel today. Go daddy, go.

The timing on this could not possibly be better.

[scottycards]

Wal-Mart, #1 on the Fortune 500 list for 2007, recorded 11.3 billion in profit on 351 billion in sales.

Exxon Mobil? 39.5 billion on 347 in revenue, over 3 times the Wal-Mart margin.

Others?

Chevron: 17 bil on 200 in revenue.
Conoco/Phillips: 15.5 on 172.5.

Come on $6.00 gas!!!!!

[ChiliPepper / Kenny]

Wal-Mart, #1 on the Fortune 500 list for 2007, recorded 11.3 billion in profit on 351 billion in sales.

Exxon Mobil? 39.5 billion on 347 in revenue, over 3 times the Wal-Mart margin.

Others?

Chevron: 17 bil on 200 in revenue.
Conoco/Phillips: 15.5 on 172.5.

Come on $6.00 gas!!!!!

Do you own stock in oil companies or something. While in the hell do you want such expensive fuel?

[Steve]

Do you own stock in oil companies or something. While in the hell do you want such expensive fuel?

It's called sarcasm. I know that's hard to believe from scottycards, but it's true. :spit:

Google's Q1 2008 profit margin (let's talk margins scotty, not $, so we're comparing apples to apples) was 25%. I don't hear anybody whining about a web search windfall profits tax. :flipoff2:

[Gags]

Do you own stock in oil companies or something. While in the hell do you want such expensive fuel?

People will drive less and it "should be better for the environment." With 6 dollar per Gallon pricing other energy sources for cars become even more of a reality.

The price of fuel drives the cost of everything up, however.

[scottycards]

Do you own stock in oil companies or something. While in the hell do you want such expensive fuel?

Actually, I very carefully make sure that none of my money is in oil companies.

I have no desire to earn money off businesses that conduct their affairs in the manner that those type of companies choose to.

Expensive fuel is going to do great things to bring about change that this country needs.

The best lessons in life are the ones that are learned the hardest way.

:thumbsup:

[Gags]

I know DeBeers stock piles diamonds. If you want to read about shady business practices look into them. They actually sold diamonds for industry purposes to Germany and America during WWII.

F@cking DeBeers. Nice example. F-diamonds.

[Steve]

Oh, I do agree with potter 100% on this: :deadhorse:

[Gags]

Potter, take off your tinfoil hat.

Yes, US demand is fairly flat. So is world oil supply. Unfortunately, world oil demand is anything but flat. Pick up the newest National Geographic magazine; the entire issue is on China. There's a very enlightening article about their past, current and projected future oil demand, mainly due to vehicles. If you think world oil supply/demand/prices are bad now you ain't seen nothin' yet.

But yeah, damn those big oil companies and their obscene 10% profit margins. That's just wrong. :rolleyes:

Here's the thing though, who wants any company any where wo have this much power over our economy and our people?

[scottycards]

It's called sarcasm. I know that's hard to believe from scottycards, but it's true. :spit:

Google's Q1 2008 profit margin (let's talk margins scotty, not $, so we're comparing apples to apples) was 25%. I don't hear anybody whining about a web search windfall profits tax. :flipoff2:

No sarcasm. I'm dead serious. I want to see $6.00 gas.

I didn't realize Google was selling a product that people have to use to get to work, and basically live. I thought their product was more of an option, unlike fuel.

Different animal.

[Steve]

Here's the thing though, who wants any company any where wo have this much power over our economy and our people?

What's the solution to that? :shrug:

[Colo.TJ]

The problem is that we as a nation are compeletely dependent on gas. The oil companies are going to do their best to keep it that way. The price of just about everything is affected by the price of gas. Kinda like water. It's an essential to the entire economy.
So yeah I will complain about the price regardless of the profit margin. It's also not much of a free market. Nearly impossible for an independent to start up a oil company.
If you believe there has been no price fixing then you are naive.

[Steve]

I didn't realize Google was selling a product that people have to use to get to work, and basically live. I thought their product was more of an option, unlike fuel.

Different animal.

Yes, it is a different animal. So, a company should be free to charge whatever they want, and make whatever profit margin they want, if what they're selling is "more of an option," but if it's something we need (because of the choices we make) a 10% profit margin is bad and evil. Ummm...okay.

But in the big picture, you are correct. Fuel prices in the US have been artificially low for many years, and we've become spoiled. The sooner that changes the better for us in the long run.

[Steve]

If you believe there has been no price fixing then you are naive.

I guess that's why all of the repeated Congressional hearings and investigations have found no evidence of anything illegal, including price fixing; they're naive too.

/out of this thread

[Gags]

What's the solution to that? :shrug:

Sh!t Steve, I'm open to options.

[scottycards]

I guess I view gasoline as a public utility, and one that should be subject to oversight and regulation. Go ahead and flame me, but please keep in mind where our current strategy has gotten us- not exactly a model of sucess from a public-welfare standpoint.

It's just my view, and it's probably incorrect. But I'm allowed to have it.

Time to let others chime in, I've got orders to write up- business remains strong!

Good debate. :thumbsup:

[Gags]

I guess I view gasoline as a public utility, and one that should be subject to oversight and regulation. Go ahead and flame me, but please keep in mind where our current strategy has gotten us- not exactly a model of sucess from a public-welfare standpoint.

It's just my view, and it's probably incorrect. But I'm allowed to have it.

Time to let others chime in, I've got orders to write up- business remains strong!

Good debate. :thumbsup:

I can get on board with this.

[JKTODD]

I know that I fo r one have changed my lifestyle for the upcoming higher fuel prices. It also has to do with the divorce but since I'm completely restructering I figured it would be better to change a few things now to make it easier over the next five years.

I've bascially moved much closer to my work.
I traded in the Mustang GT--really hated to see that car go though.:(
I purchased a JK-I actually like the V6 and plan on keeping it-I looked at a lot of types of rigs and determined this would be the best for the long haul.
I am living for a fraction of what I used to live for-not counting what I pay to the ex of course but that's temporary.

But that's just me.:)

[Steve]

I guess I view gasoline as a public utility, and one that should be subject to oversight and regulation.

I can get on board with this.

Be careful what you wish for. Public utilities are gauranteed a minimum rate of return (profit margin) by law and it's usually between 10% and 11% for Xcel for example.

[MinesJeep]

Price controls don't work, so how do you plan on regulating the industry, which has more oversight than any other industry except maybe defense and pharma? Every instance where a company has tried to single handly control prices in the market has failed and yes Marathon has been guilty of it multiple times and they've lost the a$$ each time they did. I'm all for clean solutions when the market is right for them so let gas prices rise and drive people to change.

[JKTODD]

Be careful what you wish for. Public utilities are gauranteed a minimum rate of return (profit margin) by law and it's usually between 10% and 11% for Xcel for example.

So that would put us right back to where we are now.

[scottycards]

Be careful what you wish for. Public utilities are gauranteed a minimum rate of return (profit margin) by law and it's usually between 10% and 11% for Xcel for example.

I did notice the excel disclosure this month in the paper- our rate for natural gas went up 16% last month alone- it's adjusted monthly on a penny-for-penny basis as mandated by law.

But no one seems to be bitching.

However, for some reason, I feel that they (excel) are at least playing (mostly) honestly with us. I don't get that same feeling from oil companies- as much as anything, I think oil companies have just done a horrible PR job in explaining their profits to the public.

Maybe they are being honest, doing what they can, and are operating efficiently. I wonder why they can't convey that message? One would think that it would be in their best long-term interests. The Rockefeller's are taking EM to task over just this issue- long-term strategy, and shareholder interest/value.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/story/11FC91D73DC51F278625743E000A11FD?OpenDocument

It's an interesting topic, whatever one's opinions are.

[MinesJeep]

You think utilities are playing fair? Just do a simple search on how many utilities have been sued for unfair pricing including excel.

[scottycards]

You think utilities are playing fair? Just do a simple search on how many utilities have been sued for unfair pricing including excel.

Playing fair- In the past, or currently?

I'm asking, as I don't know the answer. Is this current pricing policy- mandated by law, and on a penny-for-penny basis- a result of the past indiscretions by the utility companies?

I'd like to learn more. What I do know, is that although they've raised the rates, it seems to have much more of an air of credibility to it versus what is going on with gas prices.

You're the energy student, Tony- share your knowledge.

[ChiliPepper / Kenny]

Actually, I very carefully make sure that none of my money is in oil companies.

I have no desire to earn money off businesses that conduct their affairs in the manner that those type of companies choose to.

Expensive fuel is going to do great things to bring about change that this country needs.

The best lessons in life are the ones that are learned the hardest way.

:thumbsup:


I partially agree with you there. Fuel in Europe has been higher than what we are paying now for a long long time. Then again, if you've ever been to Europe, you see that they don't drive much. Their mass transit train system is awesome, and when they do drive the majority of them have those gawd awful scooters. (suicide bikers i swear!)

So yes, I agree America needs to really develop a better transit system. However, I also don't think its fair that through straight price gouging and creating a false supply/demand concern, that a company have a profit margin of 25%!!!

[jeepingpete]

So.... Is OPEC getting all the money? :titanic:

[Gags]

Be careful what you wish for. Public utilities are gauranteed a minimum rate of return (profit margin) by law and it's usually between 10% and 11% for Xcel for example.

I don't know what the solution is if there even is one. Perhaps this will inspire serious efforts to get us off oil. But then the ships, jets, trucking get all get hit heavey by these costs. I wonder if we would be in this position if there was a reasonable peace in the ME. That is the elephant in the room, no?

[ArloGuthroJeep]

So yes, I agree America needs to really develop a better transit system. However, I also don't think its fair that through straight price gouging and creating a false supply/demand concern, that a company have a profit margin of 25%!!!

Europe is a hell of a lot more dense then America is...how do you plan on developing an economical mass transit system when we are sprawled out so far from one another? I looked into take a bus to work. It would have driven up my commute to work from 15 minutes to 50 minutes.

[MinesJeep]

I'll be honest I don't know as much about electricity as I should on good sources and my google searches aren't finding the stuff I know is happening. I'll have to talk to a couple professors later since they are currently participating in ratebase lawsuits.

[Steve]

I wonder if we would be in this position if there was a reasonable peace in the ME. That is the elephant in the room, no?

No. The biggest problem is that the global oil supply is, and has been for a while, relatively flat. Global oil demand is, however, rising incredibly rapidly and will continue to do so for a long time. This is mainly due to China and India being at the place where we were in the 40's and 50's with families finally being able to afford to buy a car.

I mentioned a National Geographic article earlier; find it and read it. It's nothing short of shocking when you look at China's past oil useage compared to what's happening there now and will continue to happen. I read another article somewhere a few days ago that predicted $200/barrel oil within 2 years due to the significantly-increasing demand in China and India.

You could force all oil companies to be non-profit, but getting rid of that 10% return they make will have no effect on global supply and demand, which is what drives prices. :shrug:

[Tom N]

It's all a big coincidence. :silly: Don't like it? Too bad. Ain't it great?:flipoff2:

[bsaunder]

No sarcasm. I'm dead serious. I want to see $6.00 gas.

I didn't realize Google was selling a product that people have to use to get to work.....

well crap - I had no idea my bicycle ran on gasoline:eek:

And I actually do depend on some of google's features to get my work done...

[IronMonkey]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/07/business/07oil.600.jpg

[bsaunder]

The problem is that we as a nation are compeletely dependent on gas. The oil companies are going to do their best to keep it that way. The price of just about everything is affected by the price of gas. Kinda like water. It's an essential to the entire economy.
So yeah I will complain about the price regardless of the profit margin. It's also not much of a free market. Nearly impossible for an independent to start up a oil company.
If you believe there has been no price fixing then you are naive.

I know personally 13 different independent oil companies that have all been started in the last 20 years and they all operate in the NM, AZ, UT, WY, CO area.

[scottycards]

I know personally 13 different independent oil companies that have all been started in the last 20 years and they all operate in the NM, AZ, UT, WY, CO area.

Fleas on an elephant's azz.

[Gags]

No. The biggest problem is that the global oil supply is, and has been for a while, relatively flat. Global oil demand is, however, rising incredibly rapidly and will continue to do so for a long time. This is mainly due to China and India being at the place where we were in the 40's and 50's with families finally being able to afford to buy a car.

I mentioned a National Geographic article earlier; find it and read it. It's nothing short of shocking when you look at China's past oil useage compared to what's happening there now and will continue to happen. I read another article somewhere a few days ago that predicted $200/barrel oil within 2 years due to the significantly-increasing demand in China and India.

You could force all oil companies to be non-profit, but getting rid of that 10% return they make will have no effect on global supply and demand, which is what drives prices. :shrug:

Fair. I'll read the article.

[bsaunder]

Fleas on an elephant's azz.

not when addressing Nearly impossible for an independent to start up a oil company.

[scottycards]

not when addressing

Agreed, the word "significant" would need to be added.

Once significant, the indy company would be acquired by one of the big 6, in order to maintian "market equilibrium". ;)

[bsaunder]

Agreed, the word "significant" would need to be added.

Once significant, the indy company would be acquired by one of the big 6, in order to maintian "market equilibrium". ;)

possibly - I know at least one of them would be quite ticked off as his margins would be cut to a 1/3 of what he's making now. Then again, maybe he'd have access to the really expensive equipment that some of the bigger guys have...

[Hippie]

See if the gov would just stop acting like we went into Iraq for any reason other than oil and hurry up and finish taking over the fields we could start selling our oil to China and keep our prices down - Problem solved :shrug:

[scottycards]

$123.53 today, a new personal best, and world record!

May 7 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil rose to a record above $123 a barrel in New York after a government report showed that U.S. worker productivity accelerated in the first quarter, signaling stronger economic growth and increased energy demand.

Crude oil for June delivery rose $1.69, or 1.4 percent, to settle at $123.53 a barrel at 2:58 p.m. on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It was the highest close since trading began in 1983.

[JKTODD]

Jeebus! Remember when everyone was speculating when it would go over $60 a barrel. Those were the days!

[Leon Phelps]

Jeebus! Remember when everyone was speculating when it would go over $60 a barrel. Those were the days!

Jesus, remember when 28 gallons premium of gas cost less than 100 bucks to make happen :flipoff2:. GASP, it was not that long ago :flipoff2:

[Leon Phelps]

I have nothing to add, honestly. I just keep taking it in the arse at the pump in stride.

[JKTODD]

So let's see.

Hurricanes-cost goes up.
Unrest in the Middle East-cost goes up. <----although what else is new?
Recession in the economy-cost goes up.
Worker productivity-cost goes up.
China needs more oil-cost goes up
India needs more oil-cost goes up
Small coup in some out the way African community-cost goes up

Yep-we're fawked.

[BalloonKnot]

There is nothing wrong with the current oil prices. Its all very natural. Everything is just fine. Quit bitching and make some personal choices if ur a poor bastard that can't afford it. PS, I'll join ur bitching as soon as my "higher than yours" threshhold gets met.


Sorry, all I got is sarcasm.

[Speedwagon]

I personally think the biggest problem with gas prices, is the CONSTANT fluctuation in them. I fail to understand how a commodity can change price 5 times a week, when it is only delivered maybe once a week. WTF is that crap? They change the price based on speculation, not on what they actually pay for the gas.

Yes it's a free market, and they can charge what they want. But there should be some good ethics behind what you charge the customer, when the customer is dependent on your product.

None of that is to say I like paying $3.50+/gallon though.

[EEJEEP]

Expensive fuel is going to do great things to bring about change that this country needs.

The best lessons in life are the ones that are learned the hardest way.

:thumbsup:

I agree 100%. I do agree that overall that big oil is tied to the price of just about everything in our current situation, all the more reason to for everyone to work on ridding this country off of big oil.

I can't see how the oil companies made you have a long commute, or how they are keeping you from car pooling, or owning a fuel efficient car/scooter/motorcycle, or using public transportation. People need to start taking some personal responsibility for their behaviors and actions.

I take the light rail even though it nearly doubles my commute time. We bought a more expensive, smaller home rather than commuting. We knew that we would recoup the extra cost by saving money in transportation. Our commuter car get over 30 miles to the gallon.

[Budman]

See if the gov would just stop acting like we went into Iraq for any reason other than oil and hurry up and finish taking over the fields we could start selling our oil to China and keep our prices down - Problem solved :shrug:

Sarcasm? If not, 1. do a little research on the problems with Iraqi oil, and getting it to market. Second, Well I am not even going to go there.


I have seen a significant increase in research into more fuel effecient vehicles. I hope this starts to increase exponentially. I also hope to see us allowing the overseas manufacturers to bring some of the more economical vehicles into this country with out strapping thier hands with tarrifs, adn environmental laws.

[scottycards]

2009 Prius specs look very promising. Big improvements. More power, more room, less gas, better mileage, hybrid motor improved again.

[ZappBranigan]

The new Jetta TDI is coming out too. ~ 50mpg. Sure, diesel is $4.25/gallon but at 50mpg, there's still a savings.

Scotty is right (<----- still can't believe I said that! :flipoff2: ) Expensive gas will bring about a lot of the changes that need to be brought about: Smart commuting choices, smart vehicle choices, alternative fuels, etc. All those things didn't happen for years because gas was so cheap.

Generally speaking people don't change habits because they want to. They change because they have to.

[ZappBranigan]

PS: Speaking of oil, who else saw the movie "There Will Be Blood" and was massively disappointed? That was one weird-ass movie and I'm still not sure what it was about.

Though I do like the line "I drink your milkshake." :D

[scottycards]

The new Jetta TDI is coming out too. ~ 50mpg. Sure, diesel is $4.25/gallon but at 50mpg, there's still a savings.

Scotty is right (<----- still can't believe I said that! :flipoff2: ) Expensive gas will bring about a lot of the changes that need to be brought about: Smart commuting choices, smart vehicle choices, alternative fuels, etc. All those things didn't happen for years because gas was so cheap.

Generally speaking people don't change habits because they want to. They change because they have to.

Easy there, Cobra. :flipoff2:

I'm glad this is happening sooner than later. I mean, why wait till the last minute and have to go into panic mode?

A little pain now is better than a whole 'lotta pain later, and all at once.

The diesel Jetta is a heck of a car. My step-bro has one. 45mpg is common.

[Steve]

I'm glad this is happening sooner than later. I mean, why wait till the last minute and have to go into panic mode?

Meaning you're now in BIG OIL'S corner and rooting for them since what they're doing is in the greater good of the U.S.?

:lmao:

[scottycards]

Meaning you're now in BIG OIL'S corner and rooting for them since what they're doing is in the greater good of the U.S.?

:lmao:

Absolutely, I'm a team player. If you can't beat them, join them. I get flamed SO much less here. And people actually buy it- well, I guess that isn't so surprising, considering...........:P I mean, heck, they buy this "big oil is just making an honest buck" thing, right?

:flipoff2:

[potter]

No. The biggest problem is that the global oil supply is, and has been for a while, relatively flat. Global oil demand is, however, rising incredibly rapidly and will continue to do so for a long time. This is mainly due to China and India being at the place where we were in the 40's and 50's with families finally being able to afford to buy a car.

I mentioned a National Geographic article earlier; find it and read it. It's nothing short of shocking when you look at China's past oil useage compared to what's happening there now and will continue to happen. I read another article somewhere a few days ago that predicted $200/barrel oil within 2 years due to the significantly-increasing demand in China and India.

You could force all oil companies to be non-profit, but getting rid of that 10% return they make will have no effect on global supply and demand, which is what drives prices. :shrug:

The global supply of petroleum FAR EXCEEDS global use. Our current petroleum import EXCEEDS our current petroleum use. The current U.S. petroleum surplus EXCEEDS the contingency needed. Current U.S. refineries are out dated and operating UNDER capacity.

Our current price for gas is ARTIFICIALLY generated by corporate.

[potter]

PS: Speaking of oil, who else saw the movie "There Will Be Blood" and was massively disappointed? That was one weird-ass movie and I'm still not sure what it was about.

Though I do like the line "I drink your milkshake." :D

Aw, I thought it was awesome.

[Steve]

Go buy stock in Exxon/Mobil. You'll be making $$$ for retirement and doing a public service at the same time. ;)

[scottycards]

My Green Funds have provided 10% in only 6 weeks. Did my 2008 Roth contribution just a short time ago.

They are kicking azz. We're dumping in another chunk for Kelly's 2008 contribution next week.

EM is going to crumble like a house of cards one day.

[Steve]

EM is going to crumble like a house of cards one day.

That's a true statement regardless of what company name you use. :shrug:

[Gags]

That's a true statement regardless of what company name you use. :shrug:

And the sun is eventually going to grow 1500 times its current size and burn this whole friggin place up.

[XJOEX]

Some of you know where I stand on oil prices. Now that I've thrown down my hard hat and beat it repeatedly with a pipe wrench to relieve my aggression, I will move on.:flipoff2: Regardless of the stance that individuals choose to take in the matter, the one good thing that I have seen come from all this is scientific advancement. Within the oil and gas industry, drilling rigs are capable of drilling to depths and in areas that were previously unheard of. Take that for what it is, but there have actually been some pretty incredible engineering marvels. Also, while some may think that alternative fuel vehicles are not economical or feasible options at this time, at least it has gotten people out of the box and thinking. I'm not arguing for or against anyone in this matter, I just like seeing the impact that all this has had on the scientific community. There are not a lot of easy answers in this matter but at least we are trying to problem solve and progress. :beer:

[Hippie]

Sarcasm? .


Who me :D

:stirpot:

[Yota]

The truth about high gasoline prices has more to do with the fact that the price of a barrel of crude oil is currently at record high prices ($123/bbl).

The refinery bottleneck WAS a problem back when we had several refineries offline for maintenance or unscheduled downtime (like after a hurricane or when something blows up, etc), and still may be again in the future, but is not the main reason for gasoline prices remaining at their currently high levels.

Refinery problems caused short-term spikes in product (gasoline was not the only product affected) prices. The refineries eventually came back online. And also the gasoline wholesalers actually found it temporarily economical, during the supply shortages, to import finished gasoline from outside the country. These two factors mitigated the price spikes resulting from refinery downtime.

But during that whole time, the price of a barrel of crude oil, which is the starting point for all gasoline formulatinos, was steadily increasing from $65 (we thought THAT was high) up to $123 today. That necessarily means that gasoline prices have to go up.

We regulate natural gas and electrical utilities yet prices still have to be allowed to float based on the input costs. That's why Xcel raises rates when nat. gas gets more expensive and reduces them when it becomes cheaper. The difference is that Xcel has to go through 19 layers of bureaucratic hell to change rates, which has caused them lots of problems because they can't react quickly to market changes.

[Snotty]

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

I will get one as soon as it is available nationwide.

Of course people will start to bitch about the humidity increase...

[potter]

The truth about high gasoline prices has more to do with the fact that the price of a barrel of crude oil is currently at record high prices ($123/bbl).

The refinery bottleneck WAS a problem back when we had several refineries offline for maintenance or unscheduled downtime (like after a hurricane or when something blows up, etc), and still may be again in the future, but is not the main reason for gasoline prices remaining at their currently high levels.

Refinery problems caused short-term spikes in product (gasoline was not the only product affected) prices. The refineries eventually came back online. And also the gasoline wholesalers actually found it temporarily economical, during the supply shortages, to import finished gasoline from outside the country. These two factors mitigated the price spikes resulting from refinery downtime.

But during that whole time, the price of a barrel of crude oil, which is the starting point for all gasoline formulatinos, was steadily increasing from $65 (we thought THAT was high) up to $123 today. That necessarily means that gasoline prices have to go up.

We regulate natural gas and electrical utilities yet prices still have to be allowed to float based on the input costs. That's why Xcel raises rates when nat. gas gets more expensive and reduces them when it becomes cheaper. The difference is that Xcel has to go through 19 layers of bureaucratic hell to change rates, which has caused them lots of problems because they can't react quickly to market changes.

You didn't read the article attached to the thread. :tisk:

[potter]

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

I will get one as soon as it is available nationwide.

Of course people will start to bitch about the humidity increase...

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=122162 :beer: :beer: :thumbsup:

[Swat]

Alternatives are great but we need to drill the Gulf, Alaska, and the California Coast. I hope we do soon and that there is a backlash against the radical left greenies!:thumbsup:

On this note, I also hope dearly that we see no more evidence of Global warming. I don't beleive it. Just another cycle.

[FRXPLR]

The killer for me is that in the last 5 years Diesel has gone from 1.45 to 4.10
This is where the economy is suffering and the oil companies are really making their profits. It contributes to food and all other consumer costs rising because of tractor/truck operating costs.

It's a shame to have to pay more for a by-product of the refinery process than the product that is produced from it.

[endorice]

8 years ago, Bush lobbied to drill for oil on the frozen tundra areas of ANWR. The liberal critics said that this would destroy the environment, speculated that ANWR might ONLY be capable of supplying 10% of our oil need, and would take 8-10 years before we saw any of that oil.

Well, here we are 8 years later NO CLOSER to having a solution to offset our dependency on foreign oil. Stop looking for the short term solution, and let's diversify our supply of oil.

How about Mexico? I can't even speculate on how much debt that our government has written off from Mexico. How about this? In return for our past help, we get an agreement for Mexico to increase its supply of oil to the USA for a reduced price. A win-win situation - Mexico makes more, we diversify our supply. If Mexico doesn't want to do this, we give them the finger the next time they want our help.

[Swat]

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/633292/fullsize/gasoline-symbol.jpg

[Steve]

The killer for me is that in the last 5 years Diesel has gone from 1.45 to 4.10.

It's a shame to have to pay more for a by-product of the refinery process than the product that is produced from it.

Diesel is not a "by-product" of the refining process, it's a different product than gasoline, heating oil, or several other products. That's even more true now with the ultra-low sulfur fuel that they had to start making recently for the new truck emission requirements.

[Yota]

You didn't read the article attached to the thread. :tisk:

I wasn't responding to the article. The OP is moot relative to what I wrote.

Refinery capacity is not the main driver of prices right now, it's only part of the picture (the same part it always has been). In large measure the free market, God bless it, has found ways around any big refinery outages anyway. They are expensive measures (importing finished gasoline), to be sure, but they are only used when they are cheaper than the alternatives at the time.

You guys just keep trying to find the evil and the conspiracy I guess. That's your business (well an entire political party is playing you with it too). But it's blinding you to how things really work.

If you want to find a conspiracy to fix oil prices - a real one that has been documented repeatedly - look no further than the next OPEC meeting. That is what OPEC does. It is an organization dedicated to price-fixing. Your favorite enemy, and that of the Democrat Party, Exxon-Mobil, is a fawking joke in size relative to even the smallest OPEC member. It's a joke in size relative to even small non-OPEC NOCs.

[scottycards]

If you want to find a conspiracy to fix oil prices - a real one that has been documented repeatedly - look no further than the next OPEC meeting. That is what OPEC does. It is an organization dedicated to price-fixing. Your favorite enemy, and that of the Democrat Party, Exxon-Mobil, is a fawking joke in size relative to even the smallest OPEC member. It's a joke in size relative to even small non-OPEC NOCs.

Indonesia: 2007 GDP 408 billion

Exxon Mobil: 2007 Revenues 347 billion

"A fawking joke in size relative to even the smallest OPEC member"?

:shrug:

[TW]

I think gas prices should go higher. This will cause farmers to grow more corn for ethanol. In turn, there will be food shortages which will lead to a thinner/leaner population.


Yes, it's sarcasm. :D

[Yota]

Indonesia: 2007 GDP 408 billion

Exxon Mobil: 2007 Revenues 347 billion

"A fawking joke in size relative to even the smallest OPEC member"?

:shrug:

A huge part of Indonesia's petroleum is produced under production-sharing contract by foreign companies - one of them being EXXON MOBIL (http://www.exxonmobil.com/USA-English/HR/Siteflow/Indonesia_operations.asp). So much of your numbers are double-counted there.

Exxon produces a lot of oil for a lot of other countries too. Exxon gets to share in the revenues from those deals but in many many countries they don't truly get to own the reserves as companies do here in the US. So the money they get counts as both revenue for Exxon-Mobil AND as part of the country's GDP.

If you look at it based on actual owned reserves, Exxon-Mobil pales compared to OPEC countries. And in any cases, it's the countries that get to dictate to Exxon-Mobil what their producing rates will be at any given time (assuming the contract allows it). So in most cases the OPEC countries still control producing rates even if Exxon or Shell or BP does the drilling and pumping. And it's control of the producing rates that affect prices.

For chrissakes, get the facts before you go spouting BS.

[scottycards]

A huge part of Indonesia's petroleum is produced under production-sharing contract by foreign companies - one of them being EXXON MOBIL (http://www.exxonmobil.com/USA-English/HR/Siteflow/Indonesia_operations.asp). So much of your numbers are double-counted there.

Exxon produces a lot of oil for a lot of other countries too. Exxon gets to share in the revenues from those deals but in many many countries they don't truly get to own the reserves as companies do here in the US. So the money they get counts as both revenue for Exxon-Mobil AND as part of the country's GDP.



For chrissakes, get the facts before you go spouting BS.

Huh?

If the money counts as GDP for Indonesia and counts as revenue for EM, don't those numbers cancel each other out, in effect?

For example-

Let's say $50 billion is under the sharing deal.

So if each side is realizing/reporting $50 billion in Indonesian revenue, couldn't we just subtract $50 bill from each entity?

Help me understand.

You go from your original statement that the smallest OPEC member is a "fawking joke" (your words, not mine) in your post, and now you're talking revenue sharing.

Who is full of BS here?

You sound like the mouthpiece for Big Oil, Yota. You change topics, just like they swap excuses for raising the price daily. :flipoff2: