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BumperMan
February 20th, 2008, 07:11 AM
Joe is my hero btw:


Oh, there's MUCH more to know about Sheriff joe!

Maricopa County was spending approx. $18 million dollars a year on stray animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff Joe offered to take the department over, and the County Supervisors said okay.

The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated by prisoners. They feed and care for the strays. Every animal in his care is taken out and walked twice daily. He now has prisoners who are experts in animal nutrition and behavior. They give great classes for anyone who'd like to adopt an animal. He has literally taken stray dogs off the street, given them to the care of prisoners, and had them place in dog shows.

The best part? His budget for the entire department is now under $3 million. My wife and I adopted a Weimaraner from a Maricopa County shelter two years ago. He was neutered, and current on all shots, in great health, and even had a microchip inserted the day we got him. Cost us $78.
The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour for working, but most would work for free, just to be out of their cells for the day. Most of his budget is for utilities, building maintenance, etc. He pays the prisoners out of the fees collected for adopted animals.
I have long wondered when the rest of the country would take a look at the way he runs the jail system, and copy some of his ideas. He has a huge farm, donated to the county years ago, where inmates can work, and they grow most of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all the work and harvesting by hand. He has a pretty good sized hog farm, which provides meat, and fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree nursery, where prisoners work, and you can buy a living Christmas tree for $6 - $8 for the Holidays, and plant it later. We have six trees in our yard from the Prison.
Yup, he was reelected last year with 83% of the vote.
Now he's in trouble with the ACLU again. He painted all his buses and vehicles with a mural, that has a special hotline phone number painted on it, where you can call and report suspected illegal aliens. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement wasn't doing enough in his eyes, so he had 40 deputies trained specifically for enforcing immigration laws, started up his hotline, and bought 4 new buses just for hauling folks back to the border. He's kind of a 'Git-R Dun' kind of Sheriff.

TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO

HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF

AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER
THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (In Arizona ) who created the ' Tent City Jail':
He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights Cut off all but 'G' movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.

Then He Started Chain Gangs For Women So He Wouldn't Get
Sued For Discrimination.

He took away cable TV Until he found out there was A Federal Court Order that Required Cable TV For Jails So He Hooked Up The Cable TV Again Only Let In The Disney Channel And The Weather Channel.

When asked why the weather channel He Replied, So They Will Know How Hot It's Gonna Be While They Are Working
ON My Chain Gangs.

He Cut Off Coffee Since It Has Zero Nutritional Value.

When the inmates complained, he told them, 'This Isn't The Ritz/Carlton.....If You Don't Like It, Don't Come Back.'

He bought Newt Gingrich's lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the jails.

When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of the inmates were in his jails in the first place.

More On The Arizona Sheriff:

With Temperatures Being Even Hotter Than Usual In Phoenix (116 Degrees Just Set A New Record), the Associated Press Reports:
About 2,000 Inmates Living In A Barbed-Wire-Surrounded Tent Encampment At The Maricopa County Jail Have Been Given Permission To Strip Down To Their Government-Issued
Pink Boxer Shorts.

On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached
138 Degrees Inside The Week Before.

Many Were Also Swathed In Wet, Pink Towels As Sweat Collected On Their Chests And Dripped Down To Their PINK SOCKS.

'It Feels Like We Are In A Furnace,' Said James Zanzot, An Inmate Who Has Lived In The TENTS for 1 year. 'It's Inhumane.'

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: 'It's 120 Degrees In Iraq And Our Soldiers Are Living In Tents Too, And They Have To Wear Full Battle Gear,
But They Didn't Commit Any Crimes,So Shut Your Mouths!'

jredmond
February 20th, 2008, 07:28 AM
When the inmates complained, he told them, 'This Isn't The Ritz/Carlton.....If You Don't Like It, Don't Come Back.'


Quotes like this is why he is my hero too. I can't think of a better person to run a prison:thumbsup:

BumperMan
February 20th, 2008, 07:43 AM
If you are looking for something to read sometime, he is an interesting research topic.

Luv_Jeeps
February 20th, 2008, 08:21 AM
I have always like Sheriff Joe.

THETODD
February 20th, 2008, 08:37 AM
He should run for president.

BumperMan
February 20th, 2008, 08:39 AM
Funny, that was at the end of the email.

THETODD
February 20th, 2008, 08:42 AM
He could probably enter the race right now and win over the current crop of candidates.

SSII
February 20th, 2008, 09:54 AM
When I lived there, the Messicans HATED him. They would protest him at his office. He would then go outside and confront them. He owned them.

If there was a crime spree going on somewhere in his jurisdiction, he would send in the SWAT team to work the area till it was under control. He did that in Sun City where there was a Father/Son team that killed some retirees.
He tears Ass and doesn't care what the press thinks. He is NOT politically correct. Funny thing is Shack is an Honorary Deputy. Shack loves Sheriff Joe too.

newracer
February 20th, 2008, 10:02 AM
I always love reading about what he has done. The jail there is exactly what jail should be, it should suck so you don't want to come back. He gets a big :thumbsup: from me!!!!

Funrover
February 20th, 2008, 10:06 AM
I have always liked his ways! I wish more were that way! Thanks for the post budman!

shunt
February 20th, 2008, 10:17 AM
We need much much more of this..........:hail:

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 10:24 AM
My brother lives down there and the people there love Sheriff Joe. My brother's buddy has been in the tent city for DUI's. He hates him and bitches to my brother about it so, my brother always points out that it makes him not want to go back and he has to agree :D

endorice
February 20th, 2008, 10:26 AM
He should run for president.
Yeah, and he wouldn't have a snowball's chance in heck for getting elected.

Personally, I'd be the first to vote for him.

salsashark
February 20th, 2008, 10:27 AM
We need much much more of this..........:hail:

couldn't agree more...

I say we clone him and have him run every prison in the U.S..

GO SHERIFF JOE!

Loki
February 20th, 2008, 10:47 AM
He's a tough one, and runs things how they should be, I'd vote for him, but don't think he has a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected. :shrug:

sames
February 20th, 2008, 11:03 AM
I don't know if he has anything to do with it, but when the wife and I were in Phoenix I noticed the drivers were much more polite than in Denver or Boulder.

Brutus
February 20th, 2008, 11:21 AM
Ever since the first stories came out about Sheriff Joe, I have come to wonder, why haven't more prisons followed his "model" of a prison?

Trango
February 20th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Well, partially because Joe is an immoral attention whore whose unsafe and brutal conditions actually cost more money than they save (in lawsuits), but that just may be one person's opinion, formed from watching that guy (who on the contrary, cares very much about the media's impression of him) rise through the ranks.

Arizona has alot of impressionable people, maybe not so much here. It may also be the slow rise to power - if suddenly tens of people started dying in prison care here, it would be really quickly noticed, or maybe also the bald-faced graft would also be a quick target.

Hey though, not an expert on any of this stuff - just guessing.

Eryl Flynn
February 20th, 2008, 12:04 PM
He is my hero also, I have yet to find a dam thing he does that I don't like, agree with or think should be done in more places.

Tent cities might not work in some areas where it gets cold but what he is doing is taking the situation and finding ways to do it better. I bet you put him in Montana he would find a way to make some thing like a tent city work there to.

ColoJeeper
February 20th, 2008, 12:05 PM
Yea....Joe is a hero all right.....

Read the rest of the story on him. I wonder what his tax paying voters think about the 30 million dollars that he has cost them in attorney fees, litigation expenses, settlements etc...

Or the 11 million dollars in general liability coverage for his treatment of prisoners.

Maricopa County pays $ 1.2 million a year currently for insurance with a $ 5 million dollar deductible.

You guys really want to pay for an idiot like this to run your county...or country?

I won't even get into the issue of innocent until proven guilty...

scottycards
February 20th, 2008, 12:14 PM
Jail can be a lonely place (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14209906/detail.html).

I hope the animals aren't providing companionship.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 12:17 PM
I was wondering if there were any others who actually look behind the curtain. Apparently only a couple. Excellent post Bob. :thumbsup:

SUPERGILDO43
February 20th, 2008, 12:19 PM
its sounds GREAT on paper but if you dont know both sides then anything can sound good on paper.

I want to see all the bad side too. is there any other accomlishments for him?

Jeff Mason
February 20th, 2008, 12:21 PM
It would be interesting to see stats on comparable cities regarding total actual costs incurred in running their detention facilities. The arguments on here that his legal fees are higher, etc. may not stand up if similar cities incur costs at a rate that are comparable to, or higher than, his county.

Also, the question that I would ask is this: If you believe that going to jail for breaking a law should make you think twice about breaking that law (or other laws) in the future, is the system that Sheriff Joe is running helping to REDUCE the amount of crime in his jurisdiction, and/or lowering the rate of recividism among criminals (at least in his jurisdiction)?

Me, I have always thought that prison and/or jail should be a place that maintains basic respect for the prisoners (i.e. their safety while behind bars, the opportunity to learn a basic skill or trade, etc.), and that is it. The idea of tent housing, PBJ sandwiches, no tv/internet etc. seems reasonable to me. The idea that being behind bars should have some 'punishment' aspect is the right way to look at it. (That is not to say that mistreatment of prisoners by guards/others should be tolerated)

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Does anyone have anything to compare to the numbers posted about insurance? Obviously, all detention centers have to have insurance of some sort so, what do his numbers look like comparatively? Make sure the facilities being compared are similiar in location relative to population density and number of inmates, the items I would assume effect the policy.

If it cost me more money for him to run it like that than to normally run it but, he cuts down on the people returning to the system for the free life, I think I am OK with that. Basically, if it take more of an initial investment up front to save money in the long run, it is not different than anything else you make or save money with.

ColoJeeper
February 20th, 2008, 12:36 PM
To an extent I agree with you. I would like to see the comparison with what similar size counties are putting out for the same costs. But, if Joe has nothing to hide, why did it require losing a lawsuit to the New York Times to get him to even open up documents that are supposed to be public records?

Are prison and jail punishment, or are they sent there to be additionally punished? It is my understanding that being sent to jail or prison is the punishment, and there is no call for them to be abused after they are incarcerated. If Joe doesn't beleive this is abuse, why doesn't he sleep in one of his tents and demonstrate this?

I don't believe that people convicted should expect to live in the Ritz, but they certainly should be treated better than they get in Maricopa county. Joe brags about treating the animals in the pound better then he treats his prisoners.

And again....lets not forget the number of people in his jail....that have not been convicted and treated identical to those that have.

JeepWheelin02
February 20th, 2008, 01:09 PM
I dont think he is mistreating them at all. He just isnt giving them any "luxuries", and I am ok with that. I don't think they deserve any. I think after committing a crime you should be given two options. Live in a tent city, work on chain gangs, etc; or go to Iraq and fight for this country.

SUPERGILDO43
February 20th, 2008, 01:11 PM
or go to Iraq and fight for this country.

there are so many holes in this theory...


thats a horrible idea...

Oscar
February 20th, 2008, 01:23 PM
there are so many holes in this theory...


thats a horrible idea...
why prisions were dang near emptied during WWII

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 01:24 PM
I dont think he is mistreating them at all. He just isnt giving them any "luxuries", and I am ok with that. I don't think they deserve any. I think after committing a crime you should be given two options. Live in a tent city, work on chain gangs, etc; or go to Iraq and fight for this country.

So, you obviously don't believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, huh? Not all people in jails, particularly city and county jails, are criminals since they haven't had a trial or been convicted of anything.

Chain gangs? Really? Wow. I must surmise that you've never, ever, broken a law in your life, correct?

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 01:51 PM
So, you obviously don't believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, huh? Not all people in jails, particularly city and county jails, are criminals since they haven't had a trial or been convicted of anything.

Chain gangs? Really? Wow. I must surmise that you've never, ever, broken a law in your life, correct?


Help me here guys because I believe you probably have some validity to what you are saying but, I don't understand the comments about innocent until proven guilty and being in this place without a trial. This is not the general county lock up. You don't get to his tent city until you have been sentenced. This is a prison unless I am mistaken. You don't go to prison until you are sentenced. You don't end up in this tent city for getting picked up on a drunk and disorderly. You get thrown in the drunk tank, which is a different place.

Now, being someone who has been completely screwed by the justice system I understand that innocent people go to jail but, I don't think anybody is in this guys custody of the tent city without a trial. :shrug: I could be wrong though but, that is my impression of this place, based on the people I have talked to who have been in this place as a prisoner.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Help me here guys because I believe you probably have some validity to what you are saying but, I don't understand the comments about innocent until proven guilty and being in this place without a trial. This is not the general county lock up. .

Isn't he a county Sheriff? If so, then it's a county jail unless they have two in that county; one "normal" one and one that only has convicted criminals in it. County Sheriffs don't run state prisons. Are there actually two county jails there? I dunno. :shrug:

In the larger picture I don't believe in treating animals better than people and then bragging about it. Being convicted of some kind of minor crime (murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. go to a state prison, not a county jail) doesn't make anybody less of a person or mean they deserve to be treated like animals. And, just because he's a sheriff doesn't mean he gets to ignore and not follow laws, which he has been found in court to have done. Why is he above the law when nobody else is?

jredmond
February 20th, 2008, 02:01 PM
So, you obviously don't believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, huh? Not all people in jails, particularly city and county jails, are criminals since they haven't had a trial or been convicted of anything.

Chain gangs? Really? Wow. I must surmise that you've never, ever, broken a law in your life, correct?

He is not torturing the people that go to prison. They have more luxuries in the "tent city" then the troops and more then I have when I go camping (well minus the freedom). I see no problem with the "tent city" as long as proper medical care is given when needed (i.e. dehydration or heat stroke).

As far as chain gangs I also think this is a good idea.

The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour for working, but most would work for free, just to be out of their cells for the day
Why should the criminals just sit and rot when they could be put to work to help pay for their stay. I have to earn my living why shouldn't they do the same.

ZappBranigan
February 20th, 2008, 02:02 PM
This is a prison unless I am mistaken.

I believe you are mistaken. Jail and Prison are not the same thing. Jail has two kinds of people in it: Those who have been arrested but not yet convicted and who either can't make bail or who will not be bonded out (pre-trial confinement), and those who have been convicted but who are serving sentences short enough that the expense of sending them to the state prison is not worth it. I seem to remember reading somewhere that in CO at least, prisons are for those serving sentences of more than 2 years (and recall that generally speaking, any crime for which a person could be sentenced for more than 1 year is considered a felony) while jail is for those serving sentences of less than 2 years, which means that there are both felons (minor felons) as well as people who were convicted of misdemeanors like simple assault, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc.

I don't know if Maricopa county has a separate facility for pre-trial confinement but my understanding is that most jails keep pre-trial detainees and sentenced criminals in different areas. I assume we have folks here with LE experience who can fill in the details.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 02:05 PM
Chain gangs? Wow, just wow.

Hopefully those who advocate chain gangs don't have any kids who make a mistake when they're a teenager, or a relative who gets in trouble, and end up on a chain gang. You'd change your opinion so fast it would be funny.

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 02:10 PM
Isn't he a county Sheriff? If so, then it's a county jail unless they have two in that county; one "normal" one and one that only has convicted criminals in it. County Sheriffs don't run state prisons. Are there actually two county jails there? I dunno. :shrug:

In the larger picture I don't believe in treating animals better than people and then bragging about it. Being convicted of some kind of minor crime (murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. go to a state prison, not a county jail) doesn't make anybody less of a person or mean they deserve to be treated like animals. And, just because he's a sheriff doesn't mean he gets to ignore and not follow laws, which he has been found in court to have done. Why is he above the law when nobody else is?



There is more than one jail. Here is the other one they have:
http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetSubModule&sm=Jail_Facilities&mn=Our_Jails

As far as how they are treated, I disagree. Not all crime goes to the tent city and I don't know how they determine which people go or stay in the brick facility. I do know that repeat offenders for DUI go to the tent city. That is fine with me. You are risking inoccent people's lives when you drive like that and to do it and get caught multiple times tells me that you are lucky you haven't killed someone. I'm sure if you have been caught multiple times, you have done it and gotten away with it multiple times too.

As for the living conditions, they are not all that different than the ones for soldiers we have in Iraq, as has been pointed out. Do we all support a tax increase so the military can increase its budget for the purpose of having posh living quarters during time of war? Some may say yes and since I have never served because of medical issues keeping me out, I can't really comment on how bad or good it is when deployed.

JeepWheelin02
February 20th, 2008, 02:12 PM
So, you obviously don't believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, huh? Not all people in jails, particularly city and county jails, are criminals since they haven't had a trial or been convicted of anything.

Chain gangs? Really? Wow. I must surmise that you've never, ever, broken a law in your life, correct?

I believe in innocent until proven guilty. You must not have read my post. I said after committing a crime. If you aren't proven guilty then it's just like you never committed that crime.

Did you read the article about what he is doing down there? He is running chain gangs to get work done on farms.

And yes I know I have broken the law. And yes I have been to county lockup. Spent 3 days there waiting for my trial. It got dismissed. You show me one person who hasnt broken the law and I bet that person has never "left the bubble".


Help me here guys because I believe you probably have some validity to what you are saying but, I don't understand the comments about innocent until proven guilty and being in this place without a trial. This is not the general county lock up. You don't get to his tent city until you have been sentenced. This is a prison unless I am mistaken. You don't go to prison until you are sentenced. You don't end up in this tent city for getting picked up on a drunk and disorderly. You get thrown in the drunk tank, which is a different place.

Now, being someone who has been completely screwed by the justice system I understand that innocent people go to jail but, I don't think anybody is in this guys custody of the tent city without a trial. :shrug: I could be wrong though but, that is my impression of this place, based on the people I have talked to who have been in this place as a prisoner.

Camp hit the nail on the head.

:beer: :thumbsup: :beer:

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 02:13 PM
As for the living conditions, they are not all that different than the ones for soldiers we have in Iraq, as has been pointed out.

Alright, last post in this thread. That is just a stupid argument and has nothing to do with anything. Are we going to also give the prisoners weapons and let them shoot each other? Gonna let them have vacations to go home? Do we pay them military pay? That's just a stupid straw-man argument, sorry.

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 02:18 PM
Alright, last post in this thread. That is just a stupid argument and has nothing to do with anything. Are we going to also give the prisoners weapons and let them shoot each other? Gonna let them have vacations to go home? Do we pay them military pay? That's just a stupid straw-man argument, sorry.


Maybe but, it is still my tax dollars. I'm looking at it from a tax dollars stand point and I would rather see the military getting tax dollars than someone convicted of a crime getting better living accomodations than what is necessary for basic life.

Edit: Ok, my tax dollars don't go to this county, obviously, but, they do pay for local facilities. And correct, it is a jail, not a prison as I believed it was. Either way, there is a pretty good description of who is in there on their website, which I linked to.

JeepWheelin02
February 20th, 2008, 02:21 PM
So Steve,

You think that they should just be able to go to jail, and get free health care, free food, and learn a skill, and not have to pay for any of that? That is all I see being done here. He is making them work in order to pay for their stay. If they hadnt committed a crime they wouldnt be there in the first place.

He is giving them the opportunity to not want to go back, to learn to do something useful with their lives, and to be able to get a job when they get out.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 02:26 PM
So Steve...

PM me if you want, I'm done with this thread. We have very close personal experience that's relevant to this discussion, but I don't feel like going into it in the thread.

Sound_Man
February 20th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Camp, from the link you posted if you go to "tent city"


Sheriff Arpaio had previously decided that he would not release any inmates due to jail overcrowding, and housing sentenced inmates in the tents seemed a good solution.

They have 8 jails that are in Joe's county, they are not prisons and only sentenced inmates get to go to the tents.

I like Joe's approach.

Seems like it is taking a long time for my post to show up...

This is interesting http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Posse

JeepWheelin02
February 20th, 2008, 02:36 PM
We have very close personal experience that's relevant to this discussion, but I don't feel like going into it in the thread.

Are you are letting this close personal experience get in the way of seeing how he is actually doing things? Try seeing this from a different point of view.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 02:45 PM
Try seeing this from a different point of view.

Back at ya. ;)

JeepWheelin02
February 20th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Back at ya. ;)

I have. I will argue with you all day long. I will bring my personal opinion into an argument if it applies. However, I also always keep an open mind, and I always look at things from every point of view available. I have seen your point of view. I could be wrong but I think the experience you are talking about was a bad one. Whoever the person was they were probably mistreated. That is not the case here, at least not from what I can see.

If he was mistreating them then I would have a problem with it.

But as always this is a free country and we can agree to disagree.

:beer:

scottycards
February 20th, 2008, 03:02 PM
We have very close personal experience that's relevant to this discussion, but I don't feel like going into it in the thread.

Steve,

Your quote is excellent. It's so easy to armchair quarterback regarding less fortunate people (through fault of their own, or not), and say "that's what they deserve".

Ha. Walk a mile in their moccasins.

Although I don't have much experience with jail and prison facilities, the same reasoning applies to others that have been dealt a harsh blow in life either through fault of their own, or maybe no fault of their own.

The elitist attitude here, and the implications that some people may be better than others, and therfore deserve more in some way, is disgusting.

And yes, I'm taking this logic and applying it to people who may need the benefit of social programs.

/hijack

Trango
February 20th, 2008, 03:12 PM
Ok so one big thing that is being overlooked here is the active, criminal treatment of prisoners by guards. It would be one thing if we were debating the harsh conditions, caused by pink clothes, bad food, and sweltering tents, but there have been a number of alleged misdemeanor suspects killed in custody.

Thanks for the kind words, Steve.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 03:14 PM
I could be wrong but I think the experience you are talking about was a bad one. Whoever the person was they were probably mistreated.

You are very wrong. The experience I'm referring to did not involve any mistreatment at all. I will just say that had the person been stuck in a tent and put on a chain gang, instead of having a program designed to rehab first time offenders, I am 100% certain he would be back in prison now instead of having a good job, paying all of the court-ordered restitution to the victims (~$12k) and being a responsible member of the community and not living off the taxpayer's dime.

Treating all criminals the same and treating them as some form of sub-human being ain't right IMO. You can argue all you want, but you ain't gonna change my opinion. I'm not trying to change yours, but I can absolutely gaurantee you that you would change yours if you ever have a similar experience to mine.

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 03:15 PM
The elitist attitude here, and the implications that some people may be better than others, and therfore deserve more in some way, is disgusting.


Help me understand your comment here. Are you saying that as a criminal, you should enjoy all the freedoms that I do as a law abiding citizen and that my opinion of incarceration, that you should be deprived of plessure such as cable TV and porn, as being elitist? Are you saying something else and I am missing the point? I have trouble viewing the opinion that criminals should loose freedoms as being an elitist but, again, I may have completely missed your point.

ColoJeeper
February 20th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Yep, it is amazing how being presonally involved will open ones eyes and change their attitudes regarding this, as I can personally testify.

scottycards
February 20th, 2008, 03:34 PM
Help me understand your comment here. Are you saying that as a criminal, you should enjoy all the freedoms that I do as a law abiding citizen and that my opinion of incarceration, that you should be deprived of plessure such as cable TV and porn, as being elitist? Are you saying something else and I am missing the point? I have trouble viewing the opinion that criminals should loose freedoms as being an elitist but, again, I may have completely missed your point.

I knew my inference was a stretch, and maybe I should just stay out of this one, but one post to clarify, if I may-

Prison serves a purpose, and I'm fine with it. No, prisoners should not have a bunch of freedoms, and I'm fine with minimal living. But there needs to be a level of respect for them as humans, and just like a dog, if you treat someone like shit, they're only going to turn mean.

On the other hand, if you show them basic respect and make honest attempts to rehabilitate them and get them back on their feet, some will make it.

I know a guy who went into San Quentin to serve an 11 month sentence a long time ago. He came out 9 years later. 9 years to do 11 months.

But he finally got into some of the programs they offered, and he's a damn productive member of society now. If he had not had those options to develop job skills and life skills, he's still be in that yard beating the crap out of Charlie Manson (who he was locked up with for a while).

Trango
February 20th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Helter Skelter baby!

I GOT BLISTAS ON MY FINGAS!

Camp
February 20th, 2008, 03:50 PM
I knew my inference was a stretch, and maybe I should just stay out of this one, but one post to clarify, if I may-

Prison serves a purpose, and I'm fine with it. No, prisoners should not have a bunch of freedoms, and I'm fine with minimal living. But there needs to be a level of respect for them as humans, and just like a dog, if you treat someone like shit, they're only going to turn mean.

On the other hand, if you show them basic respect and make honest attempts to rehabilitate them and get them back on their feet, some will make it.

I know a guy who went into San Quentin to serve an 11 month sentence a long time ago. He came out 9 years later. 9 years to do 11 months.

But he finally got into some of the programs they offered, and he's a damn productive member of society now. If he had not had those options to develop job skills and life skills, he's still be in that yard beating the crap out of Charlie Manson (who he was locked up with for a while).

Fair enough, and I agree with most of that. I do believe, and base my opinion on, the people in the tent city are generally repeat offenders. I am a supporter of capital punishment for capital crimes and as such, support the loss of access to reform programs for repeat offenders. If other means don't work, you can rot in a cell or tent for all I care because you don't have any intent of being a productive member of society. Again, my judgement is based toward repeat offenders and I do believe some can be rehabilitated but, there are also those that can't. Those that can't don't deserve to be sitting in a leather recliner, smoking a cigarette, in an air conditioned room in the middle of summer while watching HBO when I can't afford those things and we pay for them to be there.

Tango, I agree 100%, guards should not be abusing power by mistreating prisoners. I am sure at some point, doing that job takes a significant amount of restraint to not abuse some of them but, that is their job.


Edit: And now I'm off to the King of the Hammers race so, have a good well all!

scottycards
February 20th, 2008, 03:57 PM
I'm with you on all points, Camp. Totally agree.

Go kick some ass at the Hammers.

THETODD
February 20th, 2008, 04:00 PM
Good luck at the Hammers. Scotty when was your friend at San Quentin? An old friend of mine is there on Death Row.

Eryl Flynn
February 20th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Steve it sounds like you are arguing for rehabilitation camps over prisons. If it can be shown that it is worth while and that we can fairly place first time offenders I would not be against it. The issue is, Joe is running a prison, not a rehabilitation clinic. Your friend may also be the exception not the rule, one person lucky enough to be given a chance and to take it. I don't have numbers or stats to say if we should do some thing like that.

I am all for a helping hand, and adamant against supporting worthles peices of crap who want to be a parasite on the rest of us.

scottycards
February 20th, 2008, 04:16 PM
Anyone who might have an inkling that prison life is cushy should go spend a little time in one. Alternatively, talk to someone who has done some time, and ask if there's even one second of the day where life is cushy, for years on end.

You'll have your answer. HBO might sound cushy, but if Bubba's standing behind you with his hands on your shoulders while you're watching The Sopranos, all of a sudden it ain't so cushy.

Maybe Starbreaker will chime in and let us know about the cushy prison life.

Steve
February 20th, 2008, 04:18 PM
I am all for a helping hand, and adamant against supporting worthles peices of crap who want to be a parasite on the rest of us.

I agree 100%. The problem is as soon as you're a convicted criminal, regardless of the charges, most people place you into the piece-of-crap category and would just as soon lock you up and throw away the key. In fact, most people place convicted criminals into the piece-of-crap category for the rest of their life no matter what.

Other things we learned from our experience:

- Most prosecutors aren't interested in "justice".
- Most public defenders are incompetent or worse.
- Criminal defense attorneys are hella expensive.
- Money buys different levels of "justice" for the same crime.
- "Innocent until proven guilty" is a nice cliche' but most people, and no prosecutors, believe a word of it.

Yeah, I'm a bit cynical now about the criminal justice system. :shrug:

Oscar
February 20th, 2008, 04:21 PM
The facts speak for themselves. Look how many people are getting found innocent after they have spent years in the clink.

ZappBranigan
February 20th, 2008, 04:50 PM
By the way, just to add a little more fuel to the fire here, most of the troops in the middle east sleep in air conditioned tents or buildings. I know I did in 2004 and the conditions have improved since then. The AC in one of the tents I stayed in was so cold I slept under a blanket and put a poncho liner up by my bunk to keep the cold air out. This was in Kuwait where it gets 125 degrees during the day and "cools off" to about 104 at night.

Leon Phelps
February 20th, 2008, 04:54 PM
Yep, it is amazing how being presonally involved will open ones eyes and change their attitudes regarding this, as I can personally testify.

X2, time in the pokey will give something like this a different light.

As some know, I have some serious personal experience, I just choose not to disclose it here.

BumperMan
February 20th, 2008, 05:48 PM
By the way, just to add a little more fuel to the fire here, most of the troops in the middle east sleep in air conditioned tents or buildings. I know I did in 2004 and the conditions have improved since then. The AC in one of the tents I stayed in was so cold I slept under a blanket and put a poncho liner up by my bunk to keep the cold air out. This was in Kuwait where it gets 125 degrees during the day and "cools off" to about 104 at night.

Wow, I have spent many a night in the desert in an un airconditioned tent, and that was on a good day. Most of my time over there on this last trip was spent without a tent, but the army must have it better than the AF. :flipoff2:

Like I said in the first post. Joe is my hero. However, abuse (and that means real abuse) of prisoners should not be tolerated. Joe is constantly under the microscope for the way he runs his prison, and I would be willing to bet that if he was doing anything wrong, it would be brought to light very quickly.

As for the money he costs the county in legal crap... I would say they don't much care because he just got re elected for like the 4th time, with some crazy number like 85% of the vote.

Chain gangs are a good thing, I am not talking beat you down chain gangs, but taking prisoners out and using them to clean up the streets, dig graves at the county graveyard, run the dog pound, and other jobs that would not normally get done.

I posted this a few months ago, and I think it applies here too.

My grandpa used to tell us about the P farm. He and a buddy got arrested at the age of 18 for stealing chickens or watermelons (I can't remember now). They got 30 days at the P farm (probably because they could not have paid restatution if they had too). He said the first day the got them up and whooped them on the way to a Rail Road car full of RR ties. They then started unloading them 1 guy per tie. He said until that day he would have sworn that he could not have lifted one of those ties all by himself. Just a couple of minutes and a little whoopin and he mustered the strength, and was able to do that all day every day for 30 days. He said the whooped you several times a day just because.

If you refused to work, and just took the whoopins, they would put you in a sealed house with a well pump in the middle. They would then start to fill it with water. You had 2 choices, Pump or die.

My grandfather would not steal anything after that day if his life depended on it. The soda machine gave him too much change one day and he hunted down the manager of the grocery story and ensured he gave the quarter back.

So he was punished, rehabbed, and deterred from ever going back all in 1 month.

starbreaker666
February 20th, 2008, 05:52 PM
Sadly those days are long over. Todays youth do NOT care at all about life. Period. Recidivism rates are sky rocketing. On the inside you are either predator or prey.

ZappBranigan
February 20th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Wow, I have spent many a night in the desert in an un airconditioned tent, and that was on a good day. Most of my time over there on this last trip was spent without a tent, but the army must have it better than the AF. :flipoff2:

You must have pissed off the billeting NCO.

ColoJeeper
February 21st, 2008, 02:35 PM
Sadly those days are long over. Todays youth do NOT care at all about life. Period. Recidivism rates are sky rocketing. On the inside you are either predator or prey.

And when you get out on parole....you are once again setup to fail. It is no suprise to me that recidivism rates are so high. The entire system needs a major reform.

Markos
February 22nd, 2008, 08:18 AM
Well I haven't read this whole thread. Living in Maricopa County (just a few miles from Joes house) I can say that at least half the people in Phoenix do NOT love Sheriff Joe. Yes, the chain gangs do exist. They clean the Fountain park that Joes home overlooks. It's also one of the ways that mules return drugs and other paraphernalia back to the tents.

I tell you though, you'll never see another county sherrif with this much publicity. How many county websites have a big pic of the sheriff on the home page. How may have a special web page that says:


Even famous people love the Sherrif!
http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Photo_Gallery


Oh yeah, there are 70k outstanding warrants in Maricopa country. If you want a dissenting opinion on Sheriff Joe, run his name through the search engine on this phoenix newspaper (equivalent to West Word).

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/

Enter at your own risk :D

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-12-20/news/cyberspace-invaders/full

In October, the Arizona Republic, CNN, the New York Times, and practically every other large news organization in the country reported that a special prosecutor appointed by Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas had filed a grand jury subpoena against New Times in August, demanding the newspaper hand over the Internet Protocol (IP) address of every computer whose user visited phoenixnewtimes.com since January 1, 2004 (each home computer, and many business computers, have separate IP addresses that act like fingerprints on each site they visit).

The subpoena also demanded to know, for every page visitor who accessed the Web site, "information obtained from 'cookies,' including, but not limited to, authentication, tracking, and maintaining specific information about users (site preferences, contents of electronic shopping carts, etc.)"; the type of browser and operating system the visitor was using; and even the Web site the visitor had been to before viewing phoenixnewtimes.com.



http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-10-18/news/breathtaking-abuse-of-the-constitution/full

In a breathtaking abuse of the United States Constitution, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas, and their increasingly unhinged cat's paw, special prosecutor Dennis Wilenchik, used the grand jury to subpoena "all documents related to articles and other content published by Phoenix New Times newspaper in print and on the Phoenix New Times website, regarding Sheriff Joe Arpaio from January 1, 2004 to the present."

Every note, tape, and record from every story written about Sheriff Arpaio by every reporter over a period of years.

Leon Phelps
February 22nd, 2008, 08:30 AM
I agree 100%. The problem is as soon as you're a convicted criminal, regardless of the charges, most people place you into the piece-of-crap category and would just as soon lock you up and throw away the key. In fact, most people place convicted criminals into the piece-of-crap category for the rest of their life no matter what.

Other things we learned from our experience:

- Most prosecutors aren't interested in "justice".
- Most public defenders are incompetent or worse.
- Criminal defense attorneys are hella expensive.
- Money buys different levels of "justice" for the same crime.
- "Innocent until proven guilty" is a nice cliche' but most people, and no prosecutors, believe a word of it.

Yeah, I'm a bit cynical now about the criminal justice system. :shrug:

Steve you speak the gospel on this one. Unfortunatly many do not understand this from first hand experience. Pity too

Steve
February 22nd, 2008, 09:01 AM
Steve you speak the gospel on this one. Unfortunatly many do not understand this from first hand experience. Pity too

MP, until our experience, I didn't understand it either. Unfortunately, most who never have anything to do with the system refuse to, for whatever reason, believe it. :shrug:

Leon Phelps
February 22nd, 2008, 09:35 AM
Experience has taught me the hard knocks of the justice system; also that the almighty dollar rules the justice system.

You can beat anything if you have enough money to drag out the D.A.

Simon
February 22nd, 2008, 10:12 AM
Alright, last post in this thread. That is just a stupid argument and has nothing to do with anything. Are we going to also give the prisoners weapons and let them shoot each other? Gonna let them have vacations to go home? Do we pay them military pay? That's just a stupid straw-man argument, sorry.

At $0.28/hour they just might be getting paid more than a lonely private playing over in the sand box! :))

1LT simon James

TwoDogs
February 22nd, 2008, 11:12 AM
Zapp, you're correct. County jails hold pre-trial and inmates, who are serving 24 months or less. This changes, if the state doesn't have an available bed.
When I worked at Adams County, I met some inmates who had been locked up in Maicopa County. They most definately did NOT want to go back to jail there.
As for the stray animal program, Sheriff Joe is running. I believe it's good for both the inmates and the animals. The State of Colorado runs a similar program. These programs teach inmates skills, responsibility and a sense of empathy.
I also believe in Sheriff Joe's approach to jail.





I believe you are mistaken. Jail and Prison are not the same thing. Jail has two kinds of people in it: Those who have been arrested but not yet convicted and who either can't make bail or who will not be bonded out (pre-trial confinement), and those who have been convicted but who are serving sentences short enough that the expense of sending them to the state prison is not worth it. I seem to remember reading somewhere that in CO at least, prisons are for those serving sentences of more than 2 years (and recall that generally speaking, any crime for which a person could be sentenced for more than 1 year is considered a felony) while jail is for those serving sentences of less than 2 years, which means that there are both felons (minor felons) as well as people who were convicted of misdemeanors like simple assault, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc.

I don't know if Maricopa county has a separate facility for pre-trial confinement but my understanding is that most jails keep pre-trial detainees and sentenced criminals in different areas. I assume we have folks here with LE experience who can fill in the details.

BumperMan
February 22nd, 2008, 11:25 AM
Well I haven't read this whole thread. Living in Maricopa County (just a few miles from Joes house) I can say that at least half the people in Phoenix do NOT love Sheriff Joe. Yes, the chain gangs do exist. They clean the Fountain park that Joes home overlooks. It's also one of the ways that mules return drugs and other paraphernalia back to the tents.

I tell you though, you'll never see another county sherrif with this much publicity. How many county websites have a big pic of the sheriff on the home page. How may have a special web page that says:


http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Photo_Gallery


Oh yeah, there are 70k outstanding warrants in Maricopa country. If you want a dissenting opinion on Sheriff Joe, run his name through the search engine on this phoenix newspaper (equivalent to West Word).

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/

Enter at your own risk :D

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-12-20/news/cyberspace-invaders/full



http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-10-18/news/breathtaking-abuse-of-the-constitution/full

So why did he win reelection last time with almost 85% of the vote


At $0.28/hour they just might be getting paid more than a lonely private playing over in the sand box! :))

1LT simon James

Yup...


TSgt Budman

ColoJeeper
February 22nd, 2008, 11:28 AM
At $0.28/hour they just might be getting paid more than a lonely private playing over in the sand box! :))

1LT simon James

As a comparison, Colorado DOC pays 60 cents a day for full time work.

Leon Phelps
February 22nd, 2008, 11:34 AM
So why did he win reelection last time with almost 85% of the vote



Yup...


TSgt Budman

But at what percentage of the voting population Bud?

Steve
February 22nd, 2008, 11:40 AM
But at what percentage of the voting population Bud?

And, more importantly, who did he run against?

Simon
February 22nd, 2008, 12:05 PM
As a comparison, Colorado DOC pays 60 cents a day for full time work.

Looks like a good job opportunity!

ColoJeeper
February 22nd, 2008, 12:59 PM
If you really believe that silly comment, i'd be glad to provide information on how you can take advantage of it.

Simon
February 22nd, 2008, 01:42 PM
saweeeeeeeet... which bank do you prefer I knock off....

ZappBranigan
February 22nd, 2008, 03:05 PM
saweeeeeeeet... which bank do you prefer I knock off....

Just put up a page on Myspace that says you are a middle aged guy looking to hook up with an underage girl. Not only will you get busted but we'll all get to watch it on television! :D

Markos
February 22nd, 2008, 05:54 PM
So why did he win reelection last time with almost 85% of the vote

Well if you haven't noticed, he runs a full PR campaign 100% of the time, while in office, or during a campaign. He also holds rallies and conferences in Sun City & Sun City West, retirement communities with a combine population of about 60,000.


Trust me, I live here. It's a love hate thing with a pretty decent split.



I should add that there are some great folks in MCSO.

mtntj
February 22nd, 2008, 07:18 PM
Experience has taught me the hard knocks of the justice system; also that the almighty dollar rules the justice system.

You can beat anything if you have enough money to drag out the D.A.

X2!! I wish I didn't know this to be true. Those of you that don't, it's best you don't believe everything the "justice system" tells you.

SSII
February 22nd, 2008, 07:46 PM
I have known people that stayed in Tent City. As far a I know and can remeber, everyone that is there, has been convicted. Hell, even Glen Campbell was sent to Tent City.

I do know that Tent City is a DETERENT. The people I talked to, did NOT want to go back.

The Chain Gang. Also I do believe it is voluntary, not forced. You can't force people to perform labor.

As far as Lawsuits, ANYONE can initiate a suit. We see that all the time from the Nature Nazis.
The amount of lawsuits is not an indicator of something wrong. If that was the case, then all public land is wrong for us offroaders.

Hell, I have been sued many a time when I was a Fire Marshall. I used to shut down job sites all the time. I spent almost every week in Court just dealing with Joint and Mutual suits.
I never did anything wrong too. EVER! I always enforced the NFPA Code as adopted by the State.

I promise you too though, those developers that sued me, I held them to the Letter of the Law. They recieved no breaks. They were bird dogged.

Every lawsuit that was initiated against me was always dismissed.

I have a perfectly clean record. Even a perfect DMV record. :)

Lawsuits are primarily used to harass or intimidate. That is why most never see a courtroom. They are also used to imply some wrongdoing to the General Public and used as springboards to usually get free publicity.
We see that EVERY day.

I lived In Maricopa County and did witness the positive and negative aspects of Sheriff Joe's direction. No one is perfect. No one can please everyone too. He doesn't even try to please his attackers and nether would I. He is certainly pleasing the people that voted him in.

We are not, yet, a Society with Majority rule with Minority approval. Some sure as hell are trying hard to get it that way.

BumperMan
February 22nd, 2008, 11:43 PM
But at what percentage of the voting population Bud?

If they all hated him, I guess they should register to vote and vote him out. If they are not willing or able to vote, then I guess they don't get to bitch.


And, more importantly, who did he run against?

Same applies as above. If he is so awful, and needs to go, I guess someone with some better ideas should find some backing and run against him.


Well if you haven't noticed, he runs a full PR campaign 100% of the time, while in office, or during a campaign. He also holds rallies and conferences in Sun City & Sun City West, retirement communities with a combine population of about 60,000.


Trust me, I live here. It's a love hate thing with a pretty decent split.



I should add that there are some great folks in MCSO.


I have known people that stayed in Tent City. As far a I know and can remeber, everyone that is there, has been convicted. Hell, even Glen Campbell was sent to Tent City.

I do know that Tent City is a DETERENT. The people I talked to, did NOT want to go back.

The Chain Gang. Also I do believe it is voluntary, not forced. You can't force people to perform labor.

As far as Lawsuits, ANYONE can initiate a suit. We see that all the time from the Nature Nazis.
The amount of lawsuits is not an indicator of something wrong. If that was the case, then all public land is wrong for us offroaders.

Hell, I have been sued many a time when I was a Fire Marshall. I used to shut down job sites all the time. I spent almost every week in Court just dealing with Joint and Mutual suits.
I never did anything wrong too. EVER! I always enforced the NFPA Code as adopted by the State.

I promise you too though, those developers that sued me, I held them to the Letter of the Law. They recieved no breaks. They were bird dogged.

Every lawsuit that was initiated against me was always dismissed.

I have a perfectly clean record. Even a perfect DMV record. :)

Lawsuits are primarily used to harass or intimidate. That is why most never see a courtroom. They are also used to imply some wrongdoing to the General Public and used as springboards to usually get free publicity.
We see that EVERY day.

I lived In Maricopa County and did witness the positive and negative aspects of Sheriff Joe's direction. No one is perfect. No one can please everyone too. He doesn't even try to please his attackers and nether would I. He is certainly pleasing the people that voted him in.

We are not, yet, a Society with Majority rule with Minority approval. Some sure as hell are trying hard to get it that way.

Well said.