Stoopidist legislashun evar!

[MountainJeep]

Lawmaker Considers Fee For Skiers Taking I-70

Copyrighted, so here is the link
http://cbs4denver.com/local/fee.skiers.interstate.2.637765.html


Now I have heard it all.

[denverd0n]

The concept is fine. Make the people using the system pay for it, and encourage people who don't think it is worth it to use alternatives.

The problem is the implementation. I don't think there is any feasible way to do it.

[Oscar]

Uhm don't people already pay to use it by the gas taxes?

[Mack]

I love how we're turning a freeway, as part of the federal interstate network, and turning it into a toll road.

There is NO way it could ever be implemented. There's simply no way to tell who's a skiier and who's not.

[TheCopperCowboy]

Uhm don't people already pay to use it by the gas taxes?

Quit confusing us with facts! :D

[TheCopperCowboy]

I love how we're turning a freeway, as part of the federal interstate network, and turning it into a toll road.

There is NO way it could ever be implemented. There's simply no way to tell who's a skiier and who's not.

It would be a good indication when you buy your lift ticket and you're standing in line with skis & poles. :cool:

[SuicideTireZJ]

So, how would this work? They'd blow a whole bunch of capital making the physical toll booths and start out a couple hundred thousand in the red? It's short-sightedness like this that cancels the monorail project and things that would actually stand to make a difference in the long run. Imagine the revenue that could be generated by a wicked fast train running on regular schedules up to the mountains.

[Steve]

I'm assuming it's only for I-70 between Denver and perhaps Vail, so I'm fine with it.

:flipoff2:

[IronMonkey]

Ultimately most major road travel will have congestion pricing, maybe not for 20 years, but it will come. And why not...it is a privilege and has high costs to all of us, so instead of jacking taxes overall to pay for roads, just ding those who use it. I would like to see that train running along 70 one day...like a high speed bullet type deal. Downtown Denver to Vail in 30 minutes. By the time they build it, global warming will make it only a mountain biking destination.

[jredmond]

They just need to make I-70 at least 3 lanes each direction. If he wants to do make people pay to use this road he should make everyone pay

[SatansFaith]

I don't think it will pass. The idea of charging people to use a highway that they already pay for through taxes isn't going to fly. Additionally, he's talking about rewarding people who don't use the highway at those times - but only skiers. So, I won't get a check for $25 for staying off of I-70 during those hours, but someone else will?

What if I carpool with someone? Will every person in the car receive that check if they can prove that they weren't on I-70 during those peak times?

It's nice that he's trying to reduce the congestion; I just don't see this as the answer to that problem.

[Oscar]

Its been discussed before but I feel a skiers train is the answer

[Eric]

What an implementation nightmare. Not a fan of the incentive approach either, they need to address the core problem and stop blaming the people for causing the traffic jams. The infrastructure is inadequate to say the least, that's the problem.

[Mack]

It would be a good indication when you buy your lift ticket and you're standing in line with skis & poles. :cool:

How are they going to know I didn't drive up the night before, or live up there? Or, how will they monitor that I took a 'different route' to get my $25?

[architect1]

Uhm don't people already pay to use it by the gas taxes?

X2

Total BS.

[GPP33]

We pay people to come up with tthis crap?

[Steve]

We pay people to come up with tthis crap?

No only do we pay 'em but we elect and keep reelecting 'em. :thumbsdown:

[SteveH - Colo Springs]

Romer's comment that this is a 'perfect market based solution' is a crock. A market based solution is to do nothing at all. That's the idea of the free market ("I don't go skiing because of the hassle and traffic") instead of the heavy hand of government. Only a liberal could call a tax a 'market based solution'. This is a pure revenue 'gimme' for the state.

[bdog]

I think the thread title pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I-25 should be a toll road too. Those that need to get to work at 8am should pay!

[ColoradoXJ]

i hope this is some kind of "lets see if people are paying attention to what we do while in office" practical joke. if not, then what a crock of $hit... i work up there part time and HAVE to drive on I-70 during those times since i can't afford a place in the hills (but love the perks of being an instructor) and need to be there by 8am...

it's BULL$HIT. :rant:

as oscar said, i think a train would be the best way to go, because despite what some say, there are plenty of people who would day-pack it up there and leave the car in denver.

[Oscar]

If the train thing took I would open up a secure storage bizness for the train riders... you would make a killing on the people that didn't want to haul their gear.

[ColoradoXJ]

that's for sure. cause the resorts don't currently have a good set-up for storing gear, which is why people end up taking their cars. those little lockers are not enough.

[Mcstiff]

Pretty much BS.

1) If this is based on people who buy tickets that day then what about season pass holders? What if I own a season pass and have to go up there for business not to ski?

2)I find traffic worse on the way home.

[ColoradoXJ]

i would think that the resorts are going to say :flipoff: to this one... people are already pissed that they are paying so much for tickets, gas, food, etc and adding another 'fee' onto that might just be the straw that breaks the camel's back with enough people. they already have massive issues when i-70 gets shutdown, so... :shrug:

[ZappBranigan]

For those too lazy to click on the article:

Skiers who use Interstate 70 on weekends could be charged up to $12 for using the highway or sent $25 checks for staying off under legislation being considered by a state senator.

Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver, said his plan could reduce traffic by 10 percent or more.

"You're just reallocating money from those who are time-sensitive to those who are price-sensitive, and that's a perfect market-based solution," Romer said.

Rep. Rob Witwer, R-Genessee, said the state needs to find a way to reduce traffic jams on weekends, but he's against penalizing people for driving on a road they already own.

"Anyone who's been stuck in ski traffic on a Saturday morning understands there's a problem, but we should avoid big government solutions or something that looks more like a fee. I like the idea of an incentive. It's a question of how to make it work," Witwer said.

Romer said skiers could be charged $5 to $12 per trip for driving up the mountain between 6:30 and 8:30 a.m He said the price would adjust with traffic levels.

Romer said skiers who choose to go early or wait until after the rush could get a $25 check in the mail or a coupon to spend that much at a restaurant while they wait out the afternoon rush.

He said skiers could sign up to miss the rush and then would get the rebate if they comply


How would this even work? Not everybody who heads up to the ski areas is a skier/boarder. How would they tell the difference?

Besides, wouldn't this just mean the ski "rush hour" would start at 8:31?

I am keen on those $25 checks for people who don't go up during peak hours, though. Since I don't ski anymore I'd be set up to get one of those pretty much every weekend during the ski season. "Nope, I didn't go skiing. Now gimme my money!" :D

Really, how brain-dead do you have to be to be able to come up with ideas like this?

[Mcstiff]

With the $25 bonus it would only take ~4 trips to pay for my pass!

[GPP33]

With the $25 bonus it would only take ~4 trips to pay for my pass!


Not proud of it but I could have made $250 this month alone. Maybe it is a good idea.

[TheCopperCowboy]

That's what I heard. The ski resorts would be the agents that would charge the "toll" to hand over to the state. Since they are the attraction and the reason that the roads get congested during the weekend, then the job of collecting this "tax" or "fee" becomes their job. At least that is how I understood it. :cool:

[Steve]

That's what I heard. The ski resorts would be the agents that would charge the "toll" to hand over to the state.

How would they know if you drove? Ask? "Ummm, no, I didn't drive today." "Okay, we won't charge you the $25 fee." They'd find that NOBODY drives themselves to the resorts. :spit:

[RWPOTTER]

i hope this is some kind of "lets see if people are paying attention to what we do while in office" practical joke. if not, then what a crock of $hit... i work up there part time and HAVE to drive on I-70 during those times since i can't afford a place in the hills (but love the perks of being an instructor) and need to be there by 8am...

it's BULL$HIT. :rant:

as oscar said, i think a train would be the best way to go, because despite what some say, there are plenty of people who would day-pack it up there and leave the car in denver.

Ya that makes sense....There is currently a ski train and it only runs weekends for four months in the winter and Saturdays for less then 2 months in the summer.

Taxpayers should pay billions more for another train that only gets used on weekends in the winter and a few select days in the summer.

[ColoradoXJ]

Ya that makes sense....There is currently a ski train and it only runs weekends for four months in the winter and Saturdays for less then 2 months in the summer.

Taxpayers should pay billions more for another train that only gets used on weekends in the winter and a few select days in the summer.

:rolleyes: okay mr. cynical... what do you propose?

the ski train to winterpark is a completely different thing... it services ONE ski area. ONE (unless you count MJ as a seperate...) it runs along a corridor that sees VERY LITTLE other traffic.

a train to summit/eagle counties would see a whole lot more use on a regular basis. yes, the majority of traffic would be weekend. agreed. however, there would be enough traffic during ski season that it could be justified IMHO. just like light rail, you change your scheduling based on need. run a mass-transit system from DIA and you have people who don't want to ride in a van or rent a car coming for vacation.

[bdog]

The current Ski Train costs $50 round trip to a crappy resort and takes over 2 hours one way.

A proposed ski train up i-70 would be significantly different (i would hope)

[jredmond]

What I dont understand is if they are going to charge the people based on who is in the parking lots what happens if I get a cabin a few miles away from the resort would I still get charged eventhough I didn't use I-70?

Also if I get up their early but want to stop off for a big breakfast would I get charged for this too? Romer said skiers who choose to go early or wait until after the rush could get a $25 check in the mail or a coupon to spend that much at a restaurant while they wait out the afternoon rush. So I guess he only cares if people leave late not get up there early for breakfast

[Mcstiff]

How would they know if you drove? Ask? "Ummm, no, I didn't drive today." "Okay, we won't charge you the $25 fee." They'd find that NOBODY drives themselves to the resorts. :spit:

I think they are planning on paying you $25 if you do not drive during peak times.

[RWPOTTER]

:rolleyes: okay mr. cynical... what do you propose?

the ski train to winterpark is a completely different thing... it services ONE ski area. ONE (unless you count MJ as a seperate...) it runs along a corridor that sees VERY LITTLE other traffic.

a train to summit/eagle counties would see a whole lot more use on a regular basis. yes, the majority of traffic would be weekend. agreed. however, there would be enough traffic during ski season that it could be justified IMHO. just like light rail, you change your scheduling based on need. run a mass-transit system from DIA and you have people who don't want to ride in a van or rent a car coming for vacation.

Why do you think it would be any different? Just having more ski areas will not increase the number of days it would be viable to run it. Just the capacity required during those times. You used the light rail as an example and it is empty over 95% of the time, they recently cut the number of trains because of it.

FYI: The biggest traffic days are actually in the summer and 98+% of it would not ride a train because the station is not even close to where they are going.

If it had a viable ridership, that would pay for the service, year around don't you think you would see more buses now? The only "doable" solution is to add lanes...and by the time they are complete with the study it's going to take more then one additional lane. They need to look at adding reversible lanes.

But the Envros (thinking trains are the only way) are chugging ahead trying to get CDOT to do it....not caring about your tax dollar.

If you really care...CDOT info is here: http://www.dot.state.co.us/I70mtncorridor/

[RWPOTTER]

The current Ski Train costs $50 round trip to a crappy resort and takes over 2 hours one way.

A proposed ski train up i-70 would be significantly different (i would hope)

It will cost billions to build this train....$50 is a bargain.

[ColoradoXJ]

Why do you think it would be any different? Just having more ski areas will not increase the number of days it would be viable to run it. Just the capacity required during those times. You used the light rail as an example and it is empty over 95% of the time, they recently cut the number of trains because of it. more ski areas, more residential areas (honey, lets go to denver for the weekend...), more buisnesses, hmm... more people = more reasons to ride the train BOTH DIRECTIONS. as for light rail, during commuter times, it is extremely packed. they may have cut the number of trains during NON-peak times, but i bet they didn't cut them when they need them the most...

FYI: The biggest traffic days are actually in the summer and 98+% of it would not ride a train because the station is not even close to where they are going. this is also due to construction. you cannot cost-effectively work on the mountain roads during the winter, so when do you do it? that little window of time called summer, which is also a high-traffic season by itself. do you really think people wouldn't ride a train (or other mass-transit) during the summer? hell, i'd ride it up there with my backpack, get off in silverthorn or copper and hike the whole dam day. easier to take a nap on the way back if you don't have to worry about driving...

If it had a viable ridership, that would pay for the service, year around don't you think you would see more buses now? The only "doable" solution is to add lanes...and by the time they are complete with the study it's going to take more then one additional lane. They need to look at adding reversible lanes. buses use the same roads the cars do, so no. i don't think buses are a viable thing right now, and definitely less attractive than a method that doesn't depend on road conditions. i know i don't want to be stuck on a bus for 4 hours if i-70 sucks. adding lanes is not a long-term solution. period. it will just increase the width of the parking lot.

But the Envros (thinking trains are the only way) are chugging ahead trying to get CDOT to do it....not caring about your tax dollar. i pay taxes just like you do. i also happen to be more of an enviro than my jeep portrays me to be (or at least more concious of the issues). i vote for a train over additional lanes. expensive, yes. however, i think the appeal would easily pay for it. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... but hell, nothing gets paid for immediately anyway when you're talking large projects like this.

SINCE you really care...CDOT info is here: http://www.dot.state.co.us/I70mtncorridor/

thanks for the cdot info. :thumbsup:

[ColoradoXJ]

It will cost billions to build this train....$50 is a bargain.

you don't think it will cost billions to widen i-70 the ENTIRE way through to the tourist destinations (meaning denver to at least glenwood, since no one wants to go to GJ and steve doesn't want anyone over there anyway :D )???

think long term. billions now for widening, then billions more for widening again in a few years, then billions more for another round... the clear creek valley is only SO wide... train > more lanes and WAY > stupid fee

[Steve]

I just don't see a train working at all. If you rent a condo in Dillon and want to ski Keystone, Copper and Breck, where do you get off the train? How do you get around while you're up there? Even for day skiers, if the train runs along I-70, you're gonna have to get off and take a bus to the ski area, and then another bus to the train station from the ski area. I think it's even less viable in the summer because the ski resorts ain't where everybody goes in the summer. :shrug:

[Steve]

you don't think it will cost billions to widen i-70 the ENTIRE way through to the tourist destinations (meaning denver to at least glenwood, since no one wants to go to GJ and steve doesn't want anyone over there anyway :D )???

:thumbsup:

I-70 definitely doesn't need widening from Vail west, and really not from Dillon west. From my frequent trips to Denver, and from when we go skiing in Summit County, the traffic thins out a lot west of Vail, where you never see any kind of traffic jams. The problem is really from Dillon east to Golden, especially around Idaho Springs, where there is no room to widen it anyway.

[ColoradoXJ]

okay, so train not viable from destination travelling logistics...
i-70 really just can't be widened where it would need to be...
this fee system is just a freakin moronic plan...


...what does that REALLY leave us?

[Steve]

...what does that REALLY leave us?

Personal helicopters. :D

[RWPOTTER]

Light Rail...commuters pay a few dollars for a ride that actually costs the system over 20 bucks, those of us that don't live near a station pay the rest (RTD tax). Are we going to subsidize 90% of ride on a mountain train just so "well-to-do" people can go skiing?

Summer construction has nothing to do with traffic counts on I-70. All the records are set on a few holiday weekends in the summer. (by people that are not going to use the train)

FYI: Even a high speed train is going to take more then 3 hours of your time. (Drive to station + security + wait to load + ride + wait to unload + claim equipment + switch to ski bus). A bus wouldn't take much more overall, but because it's not subsidized it's not viable.

[RWPOTTER]

you don't think it will cost billions to widen i-70 the ENTIRE way through to the tourist destinations (meaning denver to at least glenwood, since no one wants to go to GJ and steve doesn't want anyone over there anyway :D )???

think long term. billions now for widening, then billions more for widening again in a few years, then billions more for another round... the clear creek valley is only SO wide... train > more lanes and WAY > stupid fee

I have been to a few of the meetings because I have a cabin along the corridor. I can't remember the numbers but the train was something like a 100 times the cost of the current plan.

There is room to add lanes but it's going to cost more because sections will need stacked like Glenwood canyon

FYI: there are many parts of the interstate system that charge a toll. I-70 west of KC Kansas is one.

[ZooMad75]

I can't think of a more whacked out moronic idea than this one. I'll be waiting for my $25 check since I can get to other ski resorts from Pueblo without hitting that part of I-70.

Now I'm not sure where the $25 is coming from in the first place. Is that from the fees collected from the motorists that chose to drive I-70 at peak times? It just seems completely stuipid. Not everybody is a skiier that is on I-70 on the weekend. What if I wanted to go hang out at my sister's condo in Fraser but not ski? Do I get charged?

There's too many holes the the idea. Besides the fact that the resorts will fight it tooth and nail, what about the cheats? Those that want to drive at peak times will lie and say they are just going up for pizza at Beau Jo's or something stupid to avoid the fee. Just a giant logistical nightmare to me.

It's certainly not a winter time issue. Hit that section of I-70 westbound on a friday afternoon in the summer. Same thing. The problem is not skiers, it's the volume of cars. Adding lanes is really the only way to do it. Problem is CDOT has been cut down by the eviro-nuts that every stinking thing they do is predicated on an enviromental impact survey. My Dad is a retired CDOT engineer who's told me some whoppers on what the enviro-nuts did. Best was delaying a project on I-25 between monument and the rest area (north side) due to Jumping field mice. FRIGGIN MICE! Can you imagine the BS they would throw up as problems trying to add lanes to I-70? Or how about stacking the lanes like in Glenwood canyon? It won't happen anytime soon.

Simple fix. If you are going skiing leave earlier, avoid the rush. I don't expect this bill making it past the house let alone the state senate.

[spacely]

FYI: there are many parts of the interstate system that charge a toll. I-70 west of KC Kansas is one.

That was the first thing I thought of - but the toll for that is (or used to be) only about $1.50/vehicle if you were in a passenger vehicle. $5-$12 is considerably more, and like everyone else has said, how do they determine who is heading to the hills for skiing and who is not?

Personally, I prefer the train idea, and if people are concerned about getting around, what about renting a vehicle from one of the stops and going from there? I'd use a train, definitely way less stressful than having to sit in traffic for who knows how long. :shrug:

[Whitey]

I'd think they could pay people to ski on the uncrowded week days in the winter and camp, fish, hike during the week in the summer. Maybe a type of lotto to work on weekends, losers have to take off during the week & get a bonus. :D

Of course that would take legislation, but so would rationing gas ....... :shrug:

[Funrover]

This is RETARDED!!!!

[CannonBall]

I liked the idea of keeping trucks off i-70 on the weekend rush hour days... a few hours in the AM westbound, a few hours in the PM east bound. Trucks cause SO many of the problems on I70 even without the snow. With them out of there I bet it would really increase the flow. It's done on some freeways in CA, and supposidly it helps a lot.
-Nate

[Yucca-Man]

Meh. Spend billions on a train, or billions on wider/stacked roadbeds...and we'll still end up with later first snows and reduced snowpacks as the winters warmup.

[Dagimp]

Uhm don't people already pay to use it by the gas taxes?

The ski resorts should be paying this tax. It will eventually get back to the skier.

[Bskey]

Light Rail from DIA to Vail will happen eventually, and the Lincoln station will eventually end in Pueblo and go to Ft. Collins. However, with a goal to reduce traffic they need to incent carpoolers with discounted ski tickets and the state could reimburse or give a tax credit to the resorts to make up for the discount. They could also remove the gas tax during off-peak hours so people try to travel during those times to save money on the trip.

[cheftyler]

Light Rail from DIA to Vail will happen eventually, and the Lincoln station will eventually end in Pueblo and go to Ft. Collins. However, with a goal to reduce traffic they need to incent carpoolers with discounted ski tickets and the state could reimburse or give a tax credit to the resorts to make up for the discount. They could also remove the gas tax during off-peak hours so people try to travel during those times to save money on the trip.

It better not be light rail to Vail, they would need something faster than light rail to make it worthwhile.

[ColoradoXJ]

personal helicopters :D

can i get mine soon? i wanna go skiing this weekend... :P

I liked the idea of keeping trucks off i-70 on the weekend rush hour days... a few hours in the AM westbound, a few hours in the PM east bound. Trucks cause SO many of the problems on I70 even without the snow. With them out of there I bet it would really increase the flow. It's done on some freeways in CA, and supposidly it helps a lot.
-Nate

won't EVER happen. it's not so much the trucks, as the trucks that decide (for whatever reason) to not follow the law and chain up and/or have adequate snow tires. it is also the people who don't know how to drive around trucks (doing the semi slalom is just as stupid as the snowplow slalom).

as far as the $5 light rail ride fee vs. the $20 cost... you're paying taxes to lessen the congestion on the road. thats how i justify it even though i don't ride light rail near as much since i graduated.

[denverd0n]

It better not be light rail to Vail, they would need something faster than light rail to make it worthwhile.
Light rail is capable of going plenty fast enough. It goes slow through most of Denver because of cross traffic, and starting and stopping for stations every mile or two. Get it heading up into the mountains, where it won't have cross traffic and won't have to stop for many miles at a time, and it can easily zoom along way faster than the speed limit on I-70.

[CannonBall]

can i get mine soon? i wanna go skiing this weekend... :P



won't EVER happen. it's not so much the trucks, as the trucks that decide (for whatever reason) to not follow the law and chain up and/or have adequate snow tires. it is also the people who don't know how to drive around trucks (doing the semi slalom is just as stupid as the snowplow slalom).




A truck, chained or not going 40 up a 2 lane highway will slow traffic down to 40, people behind the truck pulling out to pass, slow those behind them. Trucks doing 35 down a pass, getting passed by a truck doing 45 slows traffic even more. People slow down to pass trucks, it slows traffic.

Pay attention next time you're in the mountains, snowing or not. Many of the slowdowns during peak times are caused by trucks. Do I think it would SOLVE the problem? No, but I think it would help and be easier to enforce than this I-70 toll/tax. It works well on CA roads during rush hour, again accidents and traffic still happen, but trucks on 2 lane mountain highways in the snow or not during rush hour traffic will cause lots of problems
-Nate

[supremebeholder]

Lots of our rigs go in the 50?s going up some of those passes. Should we ban them too?

I say we make this the resorts problem. Let them find a solution, either by incentives to ski on the weekdays or some kind of added fee on the weekends to go toward one of the congestion solutions.

[CannonBall]

If it's snowing there should be chain laws for cars too, but no a car isn't nearly as much of a problem to pass. In CA they have chain checkpoints on snowy days and only during really bad storms did I ever had to sit in stopped traffic. OMG california, it's a bad idea...

With no trucks on I70 during peak times the average speed would increase and more cars would flow through more easilly, bottom line.
-Nate

[ColoradoXJ]

A truck, chained or not going 40 up a 2 lane highway will slow traffic down to 40, people behind the truck pulling out to pass, slow those behind them. Trucks doing 35 down a pass, getting passed by a truck doing 45 slows traffic even more. People slow down to pass trucks, it slows traffic.

Pay attention next time you're in the mountains, snowing or not. Many of the slowdowns during peak times are caused by trucks. Do I think it would SOLVE the problem? No, but I think it would help and be easier to enforce than this I-70 toll/tax. It works well on CA roads during rush hour, again accidents and traffic still happen, but trucks on 2 lane mountain highways in the snow or not during rush hour traffic will cause lots of problems
-Nate

i still don't see it... but that's just me. i highly doubt that decreasing truck traffic will help in any measureable amount. and FYI, i drive to the hills just about every weekend during the snow season, and sometimes 3 or more times per week. my solution? a good selection of cd's and some other people in my car. i just gave up on getting frustrated with it and accepted the traffic as part of the 'experience' of heading up there :shrug:

If it's snowing there should be chain laws for cars too, but no a car isn't nearly as much of a problem to pass. In CA they have chain checkpoints on snowy days and only during really bad storms did I ever had to sit in stopped traffic. OMG california, it's a bad idea...

With no trucks on I70 during peak times the average speed would increase and more cars would flow through more easilly, bottom line.
-Nate

okay... so now you're talking about taking vacationing people who aren't used to icy/snowpacked roads in rental vehicles (or just idiots from colorado who forget how to drive every october) and without trucks 'slowing' traffic, enabling them to race up to the hills. most the accidents i see are from cars/suvs, not trucks... i'm all for making sure people are equiped properly to drive up there in bad weather :thumbsup:

[denverd0n]

I say we make this the resorts problem.
Yep. They're the ones making money off of the traffic, they should be the ones figuring out--and paying for!--the solution.

Of course, that's a complete pipe-dream, since they are also the ones who have politicians in their pockets!

[Camp]

This tax is not good thinking. I live up there. Am I going to get taxed because I need to run down to Home Depot on Saturday morning because the one in Evergreen doesn't have what I need? Oh wait, I'm sure the broken water pipe in my house is not a problem, I'll just let it continue to freeze my crawl space in the middle of winter or pay a tax to go fix my problem :mad: Someone please make note of this guys suggestions so the next time he is up for re-election, we can get rid of him.

I would ride a train. I feel the benefit of not having to worry about being in an accident, not burning way overpriced fuel, not having to stay awake, and all the other benefits are worth it but, I'm not driving from Evergreen to DIA to get on it to ride to Winter Park. By the way, their proposed times are even dumber. I leave my house in Evergreen around 6:30 and usually, after a stop for a coffee, hit the interstate at about 7am. I go to Mary Jane to ski and am usually parked in the first two rows in the parking lot. Is that really peak travel?

Don't get me started about big trucks and cars. The trucks are usually minding their own business and some idiot that can't see past his own hood runs right up behind them, slams on the brakes, then pulls out in front of me because he used a turn signal and casually accelerates back to whatever speed they were going, while I'm standing on the brakes for all they are worth and I saw the truck with his flashers on a half mile ago and got over in time. I pull a big trailer through the hills and know exactly what these guys in trucks put up with. It is called "Trailer Gravity". If you have a big trailer, people slow down and ride next to it because for some unforeseen scientific reason, they cannot see it until they are two car lengths away from it and they cannot break free from the large gravitational field it generates so, they ride there for miles, creating a traffic jam at all hours of the day or night.

As for California and chains, go check your roads out there again. Specifically, check the road to Donner out of Reno. That is possibly the worst road in America and you know why, because the idiots that envoke the chain law, do it there very time they think it is going to snow and the chains eat the road surface.

[CannonBall]

that is true about that road, I used to drive it a LOT. They really aren't that good with their use of the law, but it made for some GREAT ski days when we'd squeek through right before they close 80.
-Nate