Cheerleading Competition?

[Rhino95]

So I have the opportunity to photograph a cheerleading competition at my old high school next weekend. The person in charge of the event would like me to photograph and sell to the parents/players/etc at the event. I was just wondering what you guys would recommend as for a way to market, sell and distribute the photos accordingly.

Note: I will not be printing on site. So I would like some kind of online ordering of some sort.

I heard something about Shutterfly from a friend of mine, but couldn't really get a grasp on how it works.

As far as pricing...this is what I was thinking:
4x6 - $5
5x7 - $8
8x10 - $15
16x20 - $25

Any suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated.

And if you were wondering...I'll be renting a 90-250mm 2.8 to play with :D

Thanks!

Ryan

[ScaldedDog]

I can't speak to pricing, but I've taken hundreds - maybe thousands - of cheerleading photo's in the past year. I got to shoot (for fun) the national Christian school cheer championships a couple of weeks ago, and watched the guys who were shooting it professionally. Here's what I saw (and learned):

1) Consider a shorter lens - The pro guys were shooting what looked to be 24-70 (or so) zooms. I know my 70-200 was way too long to shoot in that auditorium. If you can, plan your spot ahead of time so you'll know what you need.

2) Assuming your camera doesn't have a "gym" white balance :D , plan on shooting a custom one. I've got tons of goofy colored cheerleader pics...

3) The pro guys looked to have 2-3 memory cards. As soon as a performance ended, someone would run that card back to a set of laptops in the back, while the photographer changed cards to be ready for the next performance. The folks running the laptops would copy the photos over to a team-named directory, and let the girls scroll through and pick the ones they wanted. I'm not sure what software they were using, or if it had any sort of "online" ordering mechanism.

4) Personally, I've tried all sorts of focus strategies, and none of the autofocus ones worked all that well. The best one, for me, ended up being to lock the focus on the center spot, then pick the subject, focus by holding the shutter release part way down, compose and shoot. *Please*, if you come up with something better, come back on here and share it, at least with me! :D

Let us know how it goes!

Mark

[Rhino95]

Thanks for all that!

There is a 35-100mm (35mm eq of 70-200) 2.0 that I could rent instead of the 90-250mm(35mm eq of 180-500) 2.8. You think that would be better? It IS about 1/2 the price :) Plus I could shoot at faster shutter speeds with lower ISO. I REALLY want to avoid going anywhere over ISO 800.

Also what about flash? Should I just nix it? I'd have to rent/borrow a flash as well, but I'm not sure it'd be necessary.

[starbreaker666]

Where will the "special" cheerleader pics be posted?
























Just could not resist!

[Jocko]

You might not be able to use flash. Check the competition rules.

Most gyms are very challenging to shoot in. You will have to create a custom white balance, as stated earlier. Don't bother with a long lens unless you have two bodies. What you want is fast glass. The 2.0 sounds good but also look for a 1.8 or 1.4 in the 100 mm range (not sure if oly has those?). You could go a little shorter, depending on where you are allowed to shoot from. Set your camera to manual exposure. You will need a fast shutter speed, so set a high ISO, around 800-1600. Open your aperture all the way. Meter off skin tones. Check your playback and histogram. You should be able to shoot with these settings for the rest of the say. Focusing is extremely important when shooting with a large aperture. Be prepared to have a lot of throw sways. "Spray and pray" as the pros would say.

As far as marketing, your best sells will come from the event, in the form of "prints on location". If that isn't possible, make sure people know where they can go to view your photos. Just make sure they have quality photos to look at.

[Tiffany]

Bust ass and get some cards made up with your onilne site to order from. www.overnightprints.com did a good job getting me cards quickly for a similar deal.

Make sure to put your link to your ordering site on the card for folks to find you.

And just FYI, Shutterfly's prints sucked when I used them for some personal stuff...

[ScaldedDog]

Thanks for all that!

There is a 35-100mm (35mm eq of 70-200) 2.0 that I could rent instead of the 90-250mm(35mm eq of 180-500) 2.8. You think that would be better? It IS about 1/2 the price :) Plus I could shoot at faster shutter speeds with lower ISO. I REALLY want to avoid going anywhere over ISO 800.

Also what about flash? Should I just nix it? I'd have to rent/borrow a flash as well, but I'm not sure it'd be necessary.

The 35-100/2 sounds like the hot ticket, particularly if you'll be down on the floor. (Are you sure your math is right, though? On my Nikon, you use a 1.5 multiplier to get the 35mm equivalent. Are the Oly sensors smaller?)

I wouldn't use flash. You won't be able to bounce it off the high ceiling, and you've never seen red-eye 'till you've seen it on some breathless teenager with her eyes bugging out of her head. Besides, you'll be wanting to shoot several frames per second, and no flash that I can afford would keep up.

"Spray and pray". :D I wish I'd heard that before, and maybe I wouldn't have been so hard on myself for taking so much crap. I looked at some of the stuff that the pro's shot, and it was easy to see the skill level differences between the two guys in the percentage of decent shots they took.

Good luck!

Mark

[Rhino95]

The 35-100/2 sounds like the hot ticket, particularly if you'll be down on the floor. (Are you sure your math is right, though? On my Nikon, you use a 1.5 multiplier to get the 35mm equivalent. Are the Oly sensors smaller?)


Yeah, math is right. Oly sensors are small. There are pros and cons to it.

[Rhino95]

[QUOTE=Tiffany;976134
And just FYI, Shutterfly's prints sucked when I used them for some personal stuff...[/QUOTE]

Good to know...then what would you recommend I use?

[Tiffany]

If you are going to do this more often, I would spring for the mid-level SmugMug account. Their prints are really good.

I also had some great prints from Wolf Camera, but I have no clue who their online stuff works as I did it in store.

[Rhino95]

I plan on getting a website soon, but it won't be smug mug or anything like that. So I'll hold off on it.

Except one thing I just realized is that with ProPhotoRentals.com you have a miniumum of a 4 day rental. So instead of it costing me about $30 for the one day, it [will/would] cost me about $130! And I know that there is no way I could get quality photos with my kit lenses. I also found out today that I'm scheduled to work that day for Lifetouch....I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO! Ahhh!

[Tiffany]

Sounds like you have a dilema. It does you no good to take pics if you cant offer easy proofing and printing to clients to make your money. And if you cant get the day off anyway it doesn't matter.

[thenimirra]

I hope everything works out for you Rhino!

[Rhino95]

So I think I can get the day off. I'm assuming I am. But I still don't have any good ideas as to how to sell. Ugh

[thenimirra]

Rhino, I agree with other posters that deciding on an online company that you feel comfortable with is a good way to allow clients to proof and purchase.

I just made my first direct sales through my website at SmugMug. It was actually purchased downloads of images. And I am expecting to make some money off sales from the Breckenridge event too. People kept saying that having my work available online was very convenient for them.

[Tiffany]

The cheapest smugmug account is $30 for a year. Will you sell more than $30 worth of prints? If so that seems to be a no brainer to set it up so you can do this job and actually have your work online for proofing and easy ordering for customers.

No one says you have to keep the site, but if you want folks to order prints you have to give them an easy way to get to them and order them.

Having cards with your order/proofing url will be key and you need to make sure you have enough cards for the entire event. Look at this as the job that pays for all this stuff for next time.

[Rhino95]

Welp I figured out where to host my photos...

Photoreflect.com more specifically RyanDykstraPhotography.Photoreflect.com

It is free to use, but they take 18% of sales. I just started messing around with it, have yet to create my design, but it looks like this should work perfectly!

[Tiffany]

DAMN!!! 18%!!!! :eek:

[Jeffro600]

DAMN!!! 18%!!!! :eek:

No doubt!!

Go get yourself a Zenfolio or Smugmug acount for 20-30 bucks and host all the photos you want on there without having to pay some crap fee... :shrug:

[potter]

I'd be willing to bet that 18% will end up costing you more money than a smugmug account.

[ColoradoSkier]

But it won't cost him up front, which I am sure was his concern. Different situations for different people.

[Tiffany]

I guess, but the money he is losing on prints would more than cover the $30/year cost of a basic SM account that he could use repeatedly until his own site was up....and have a print lab that is top notch when it comes to prints and fulfillment.

And use the code flickr and it's half off the first year...but yeah, to each his own I guess.

[Jocko]

Smugmug charges 15% on all orders, so the fee isn't that much off. I try to have all orders go through me. Some might not want the hassle but if you're selling a lot of pictures, 15% adds up fast. I use MPIX.com for all of my prints.

One thing that is nice about SM is it's flexibility. Easy to customize and make it look & feel like a whole different site. Not to mention the support at dgrin. If you sign up under another smugmug user you save $5.

Good luck to ya.
Chad

[Tiffany]

I thought SM was 10%...hmmm. I retract my statement ;)

And as I posted, if you use the code "flickr" you get 50% off your first year

[thenimirra]

yep, I got hit with that 15 percent charge myself this weekend when I made my sales online.

But I don't want to have to worry about dealing with credit card transactions and sending out prints, so the trade off is worth it for me.

[Tiffany]

I guess I never really paid much attention because the way I work it is I have clients choose the photos they want printed then I order them and collect payment from them on delivery. That allows me one more face to face with them and a chance to give them more cards to give to their friends.

I don't do much event photography so it works out great.

[Jeffro600]

Wow, that crap. I know Zenfolio has adjustable markup on selling your photos and only charges you when they feel like your mark up is high enough to be making good money.

But i dont use their printing services anyways. If someone wants a photo, they can paypal me the money and ill print it myself for them through my own means(usually Adorama) and dont have to worry about being taxed for it.

[Tiffany]

Zenfolio charges 12%...

There is a 12% service fee applied to profit only on orders fulfilled by the partner labs. Credit card transaction charges are included in this fee.

[Jeffro600]

Regardless, still one more reason i do all my own printing. Doesnt cost me anything extra and i can charge whatever i want and not get a percentage taken out. I sold a 20X30 of one of my landscapes last month for $250 and the customer wanted it custom framed costing him almost 500 bucks total. That would have been a substantial chunk of change they took out! I had the print made for under 20 dollars and used the frame shop on base to make a what would have easily been 200+ dollar frame for 30 bucks.

I expected to make 400 dollars on the deal, so the fact that i came out ahead 40-50 dollars makes it even sweeter.

[Tiffany]

Oh I hear ya Jeff. I do my deal the way I do and never really thought about the percentage they take as it never applies to me.

I guess for not having to deal with CCs and order fulfillment its not so bad, but have been doing order fulfillment for t-shirts, hats and hoodies for years so its a process much like anything else for me and doesnt bother me at all.

[Jeffro600]

For client based orders on novelty things like t-shirts, mugs, puzzles, etc i probably would let them order it through Zen and suck up my loss on their percentages. That part wouldnt be worth the hassle! :D

Most of my deals i only work with cash only...if its a legit company or corporation ill take a check. If its someone thats not local, paypal.

[Rhino95]

One thing I made sure I wanted as an option was credit card. Besides paypal there really isn't a realistic way to make this an option besides something like PhotoReflect.

Also as far as dealing with prints on my own...this is a CHEER competition...with probably about 10+ teams so I'm hoping there [may] be a number of orders from the moms. If I had to deal with that number of prints to make and delivering them and/or mailing them to the customer it would make my life SO much more difficult. I still think PhotoReflect is the way to go for me. It should work out perfectly...I just have to put my trust in their labs, but I don't know why they would be sub quality.

BTW I got the day off from Lifetouch so I'm good to go :)
Boss even offered me lights and backdrops...and even lenses!

[thenimirra]

Nice job!

[Rhino95]

Here it is! (ryandykstraphotography.photoreflect.com)

If you guys are interested...they have several different layouts to chose from. It's super easy, super simple, and super temporary :)

[Tiffany]

Looks good Ryan, and honestly, its about what works best for you. I would really like to hear your thoughts on it once the vent is over and you use the site fully.

Seems as if it might be a good way for me to pimp the sports photos from all the baseball tournaments my son plays in.

[ColoradoSkier]

Ryan - is your plan to upload all the pics you shoot, or are you going to be selective? In my experience, you just never know when someone is going to like a picture that you might have tossed off as not being a keeper.

[Tiffany]

Ryan - is your plan to upload all the pics you shoot, or are you going to be selective? In my experience, you just never know when someone is going to like a picture that you might have tossed off as not being a keeper.
X2

I am always shocked at the pics that folks order over what I would have chosen....so I give them all to them.

[Rhino95]

Yeah, I'll probably throw them all on there...it doesn't hurt. I figure one 2gig card per performance at around 100 photos or so per team... at most.

[thenimirra]

I agree. I can never fathom why clients like certain pics. My only guess is that we as photographers are much pickier than our clients and we look at the image for other qualities, such as good lighting and composition, etc. etc.

[Tiffany]

Yeah clients see picture of their kid and its sold.

[ColoradoSkier]

I know a 5 picture sequence of a kid pitching a ball will sell no matter what. :)

[Hardcor4x4]

why post a link to your album if it's password protected?

[Rhino95]

There's nothing in the album yet...so...

[ColoradoSkier]

I'd keep the password up though, and write it on the cards. You are dealing with kids (older kids, but still kids), and you don't want perv's looking up these girls. Trust me, already been there... :mad:

[Tiffany]

Yup, anytime I do ANYTHING dealing with kids I tend to password it. Makes the parents feel a lot better about things and avoids issues.

[Rhino95]

Yeah, I'll just be sure to post my favorites from the competition.

[Rhino95]

Quick question...packages and prices...what do I do!?

I have NO clue, besides copying Lifetouch packages.

There's SO many options and you choose the pricing

Tiffany, you've seen it, what would YOU recommend for packages and prices.

[Tiffany]

I set prices for individual prints so far, no packages. The default package seems to be a good start, but I would drop the price on that depending on how you price you rindividual prints.

They have some many options thought its kind of crazy. I have my sons order form from baseball upstairs and will probably go off of that...they offer most of the same pieces as that did.

Can post more tomorrow for you, time for bed!