how do I charge for a five-day event?

[thenimirra]

Good grief....I've been asked to photograph a national ski convention in Breckenridge. It will force me to have to take time off from my full time job in order to do the three week day events, plus there will be two weekends worth of events too.

How the heck do I charge for this? A basic hourly rate per event? What about travel expenses? Damn! I seriously need a business manager.

[ColoradoSkier]

For this I think you will also need extra shooters. What convention is this?

[ColoradoSkier]

Also, can you ski? They are going to want coverage of that, so make sure they include rentals and lift tickets if you need them, plus a room. Get them to cover that up front, not on the back end.


Damn, I need to get my "shingle" out there so I can get gigs like that...

[Tiffany]

You should charge at least double what you would make at your regular job in addition to travel expenses and per diem. Or build that in to your fee. You are taking time away from your employer to do this so make sure its damn well worth it.

Charging hourly per event is not going to get you much in return. Flat fee with exactly laying out what they get for that fee.

I also agree with Chester than one photog can not cover an event in Breckenridge...not effectively anyway. There will be multiple events at the same time, skiing/boarding, entertainment....blah. They may be taking care of that by hiring more than one photog for the event, but if not you might do well to find a few folks who can help you out.

[thenimirra]

I guess if my boss doesn't give me the time off, it won't work anyway. Why do folks wait until the last minute to do things? This event is NEXT WEEK and they call me now?

I won't be skiing. They want me to shoot very specific events that are held each day of the convention...maybe a max of three events per day....some races, dinners, receptions etc. It's the National Brotherhood of Skiers. They have a local organization called Slippers and Sliders too, so if I nail this assignment, I could possibly do the local gigs too or travel across the country with the national group whenever they have a convention. This could be a great opportunity!

[Tiffany]

Then you charge double your rate for the last minute notice.

"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine" This sign hangs next to or near each developers desk at work...its not just a sign, its a rule. Clients who, in the 23rd hour of developement remember that they wanted a photo gallery...they can have a photo gallery but they are either going to:

A: Push the deadline back by 3 weeks
B: Pay double the normal hourly development rate for the photo gallery
C: Launch their site without the forgotten photo gallery and wait the standar 30 days for changes then get a photo gallery added to their site

Kind of funny how many folks are willing to pay double for it so that their boss doesnt find out they screwed up in the first place.

[ColoradoSkier]

x2 on what Tiff said. Gut feeling is that they had someone who backed out, and now they are desperate.

Sounds like you have reached the line of demarcation with the day job. That makes it a tough call. You knew it was coming at some point though.

[Tiffany]

Funny, was a member of Slippers and Sliders when I was growing up and skiing every weekend. My cousin is part of the National group and local as well.

If you don't have the equipment to shoot the races then you need to work that in pretty quickly. Ski racing is FAST!!!!

[cheftyler]

Sheeba, if you honestly figure you will be traveling to more and more gigs, especially multi-day ones, get yourself familiar with this site (http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?contentId=17943&contentType=GSA_BASIC) it's the federal government's domestic Per Diem rates and just charge the client as a separate line item on the quote. Personally, I find the max lodging rates a little low (maybe I am just a hotel snob :shrug:) but the meals and expenses column is usually dead on.
For instance, Silverthorne/Breckenridge for this time of year:
Max Lodging/Day: $162
Meals and Incidental Expenses/Day: $54
Total = $216

*my company ignores the 75% rate for M/IE for the first and last day because we're always traveling early in the morning going to the gig and late in the afternoon/evening on the way home*

[ColoradoSkier]

Just came across this site - http://www.editorialphoto.com/outreachep/handout1.asp - might be helpful for you too.

Saw something the other day on Channel 6 about Colorado skiing and how it was really called "Sippers and Sliders" but they bowed to PC pressure to change it. Sad.

Yes, ski racing can be fast. The races are probably dual-style NASTAR types of things (almost a GS race). You will need to be on the hill to shoot the races. It's more fun to ski there instead of riding a snowmobile. ;)

[OFRD_GRL]

How we always worked it when we had to hire in extra photographers.... is we got their daily rate from them.

What is an entire day of shooting worth to you? Figure it will be harder work than sitting at a desk. So whatever your whole day is worth to you and give them that, not an hourly rate.
We had a second photographer come in to help me with one of our shoots and IIRC he was $450 for the day, in studio work about 9 hours.

Also, make sure they either book your room and such for you, or that they will compensate you for that ahead of shoot time since that will be money out of pocket to begin with.

[RebelRescuer]

I have no advice, but just wanna say that I'm SO proud of you!! Big hugs!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[JeepWheelin02]

For instance, Silverthorne/Breckenridge for this time of year:
Max Lodging/Day: $162
Meals and Incidental Expenses/Day: $54
Total = $216

Agreed that this is very good info however, like stated the max Lodging per day is almost always off. Good luck finding a room in that area for less than $180 this time of year.

[cheftyler]

Agreed that this is very good info however, like stated the max Lodging per day is almost always off. Good luck finding a room in that area for less than $180 this time of year.

Yup, my advice, book a room and factor the actual cost of the room and tax as the lodging portion of your per diem, then add the daily rate for incidentals to it.

[signman2007]

$100 an hour and call it good and in my opinion thats giving them a break! That will cover everything and then some. These days $100 an hour is quite normal. Make sure you document everything you do to justify including the timeyou leave your house for the trip charge.

[Brutus]

What's the worst thing that happens... they don't give you the job and you don't have to ask for time off?

Figure out your costs, double them and submit the quote.

Line item them as follows:
Photography services (1.5 times what you figure your costs to be)
Expedite fee (0.5 times what you figure your costs to be)

I would definately put a line item in the quote about EXACTLY what items (hotel room... etc) they have to provide you if you decide to go that route.

[thenimirra]

Thanks for all the support everyone....

My boss just told me I can take Wed-Frid of next week off! Yeah! Now I can wheel and deal, so to speak.

Wow...they are charging peopel more than $400 each just to attend this summit...so they must have a budget in mind for photography...

[thenimirra]

so I just got the shooting schedule today. All they want me to do is shoot parties. It's about 13 hours of actual shooting time over the weekend. No races or anything else. Just parties...

If I charge $100 an hour, that's $1,300. I'm thinking if I ask for an even $1500 that should cover travel expenses. What say you? Is that too much, not enough?

[OFRD_GRL]

That sounds pretty good to me!

[thenimirra]

anybody can shoot a party....I may take some more initiative and hang around and shoot some more stuff. Why not? I've got the time off and I've never been to Breck before...

[Tiffany]

I would charge more, remember you have to edit all those images and I doubt they will be buying single prints. They would want a CD of finished images right?

Might be a good question to ask.

[ColoradoSkier]

And make sure the lodging is covered. And there should be some additional compensation for the last minute nature of this.

[Tiffany]

X2 what he said...

Honestly, when you said 1 week notice, taking time off work...the figure that popped in my mind was about $2500.

I wasn't thinking that before lodging and incidentals were brought up.

[ColoradoSkier]

I agree with Tiff.

[thenimirra]

$2500....wow!

[ColoradoSkier]

I looked at the site, and it looks like their event coincides with the Snow Sculpture Championships. Get out there and shoot a bunch of pics of the that if you have free time. Might be able to sell some back to your paper, or as stock, or to event organizers for that. Take full advantage of your free time while you are up there, and you could score even more $$ for the trouble.

[ColoradoSkier]

Also, there are countless places to work on your landscape shots, if you so desire. Head south on Hwy 9 into Blue River and beyond (Hoosier Pass), lots of good areas up there.

[thenimirra]

cool thanks for the tips!

Looking at previous years shots shows that this are mostly going to be Grip and Grin shots!

Good Lord...I HATE those kind. I better make that clear when I talk to them too.

[Tiffany]

$2500....wow!
I know what I make a week at work, I tend to double that for the trouble of me missing work and justifying it in MY head that it's worth it.

My employer pays me every week, a gig once in a blue moon...so for me to take time away from the guaranteed paycheck it damn well better be worth it, hobby, sidejob or whatever. While a boss will give you the time off, I doubt he would be real happy to hear you took time off to go pursue your hobby when you could have been doing the work he pays you to do.
And you never know down the line what he will remember at the wrong time.

$2500 is a steal for them to get a GOOD photog in at the last minute.

[Brutus]

Photography services = $1,300 * 1.5 = $1,950
Expedite Fee = $1,300 * 0.5 = $650

Total = $2,600

Tiffany and I were on the same page but just took different routes... :D

[thenimirra]

ok....just got the rest of the assignment...it's more like 24 hours of work shooting Sat, Sun, Wed, Thurs, Friday...


I feel much better about asking for $2500 now...

[Brutus]

I feel much better about asking for $2500 now...

Only now it should be more!

24 hours * $100 * 2 (expedite fee)= $4,800

EDIT: At least start the negociations at $4,800 and work your way down... don't sell yourself short!

:D You can thank me when you get back. :D

[Tiffany]

Gonna be blunt as its Friday and I am tired...you are missing the point that everyone is putting in your face....$2500 is a drop in the bucket for something like this. When I said $2500, I was being cheap.

Brutus is very much on target. 24 hours of shooting, let's say 12 hours of editing....$4800 seems like a steal.

You are:

Taking time off from you FULL TIME JOB!!!
Taking on an assignment with less than 30 days notice (this event didnt just pop in someone's head, they have been planning it for a year)
Going to shoot a total of 24 hours (probably more for this)
Travelling well outside your "home" location (I charge extra if it is more than 30 minutes outside Denver)


I actually asked about 10 different photogs what they would charge, the lowest fee so far has been $3500 and that is because he lives in the mountains so less of a drive. Based on the facts we have been told so far that I relayed to them, $4500-$5000 is more in line with what most would expect to be paid for this. Mostly for the last minute nature of it, but a big chunk of it cause they would be taking off of a full time job.

Had 5 of them say hands down they would not take off of their full time gig unless the client was guaranting that they would see a stream of steady work from it and the fee was at least in line witha months regular pay for them (I agree, I am not going to do a damn thing to risk my steady job unless I am ready to walk away from it should things get ugly over my hobby). It's not worth the risk factor just to make a bit of money on the side.

That being said, either go for it or don't, but when you sell yourself short to one client, they will all tend to expect that from you. Either get fully compensated for the job or don't, but don't dilly dally with it.

Sell your skill and work for twice what you think its worth and you will usually end up with a very fair agreement.

[Jeffro600]

I wouldnt take the job unless your going to walk away with at least 3500-4000 profit in your pocket.

[thenimirra]

I took the job and it has been AMAZING!

I've already gotten two other business assignments from it! And the week isn't over yet!

It's fricking cold in Breck, but it's a lovely place to be.

A quick question: I saw some guys that look like they were snowboarding on a frozen lake. They had a wind sail or something like that that helped propel them across the ice. Does anyone know what that is?

[cheftyler]

Can't remember what it's called but if it's what I'm thinking they're on a windboard with blades/runners on the bottom.

[thenimirra]

Cool...thanks ChefTyler...I plan to take some pics of them when I have some free time throughout the week of shooting!

Thanks for all the advice everybody regarding prices. I worked out a deal I feel comfortable with and I'm already making money on the "side" of my now "side buiness!" I got my first BIG check with my company name printed on it. Now to open a business checking account! ;)

[ColoradoSkier]

It's called snowkiting. You do it on skis or a snowboard. Like wakeboarding behind a kite, but in the winter.

http://www.coloradokiteforce.com/home/links.php

Don't forget to hit the snow sculptures!

[thenimirra]

Thanks for that tip on the landscape photo shots too Chester. I have about a four-hour "lay-over" so to speak between assignments on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, so I plan to put that time to good use!

[cheftyler]

Does it look like this? (http://www.broadbandsports.com/node/510)
Ice Windsurfing
or this:
http://coloradokiteforce.com/albums/KiteSnowboarding/curtis010.jpg
Snow Kiting

[ColoradoSkier]

I have seen them out there plenty of times, it is snow kiting. When I lived up there, I had a friend that kind of started all this craziness by skiing behind a parachute - UP Loveland Pass. http://www.upski.com if they are still in business - he has done some crazy stuff, and had customers do even crazier things.

[cheftyler]

:shrug: Seen both around Breck.