Taking DIY just a little farther

[Scott@Rockstomper]

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000893.JPG

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000901.JPG

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000909.JPG

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000914.JPG

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000917.JPG

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000919.JPG

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000923.JPG

Who can tell what I'm making, and who can spot the assorted screwups I've made so far?

[Rando]

looks like the receiver section of some kind of gun?

[Rough Ranger]

That's awesome! AR lower?

[dmeis]

:flipoff2:

[ccondrey]

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side."

nice work :beer:

[Scott@Rockstomper]

:flipoff2:

Yeahyeahyeah... just 'cause you've got the connection to go bug somebody for a little range time with one with the extra selector position... :flipoff2: right backatcha.

And it's an AR10 (.308 AR) lower, with a few tweaks (nothing illegal--.308 is expensive enough without mowing through it at a rounds-per-second rate) of my own. This particular one is my test-screwup first-ever, and at this point, will not be able to fully function even if it were assembled, due to my machining screwups.

[dmeis]

Next up is a 1911???

:flipoff2:

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Next up is a 1911???

:flipoff2:

I've got the solid model, c'mon by and you can write the G code. :laughing:

The compound radius on this one, above/behind the pistol grip... was 360 lines of code. Per side. Manually coded. My post processor and my mill aren't smart enough to interpolate that kind of shape.

[kdl_golden]

Scott,
Looks nice. What CAM software are you using? We are using GibbsCam and would like to get ideas on what others are using. I teach Machining at CCD. I'd love to be able to use the equipment here for some gun projects, but they kind of frown upon it:shrug: .

[Scott@Rockstomper]

What CAM software are you using? We are using GibbsCam and would like to get ideas on what others are using. I teach Machining at CCD. I'd love to be able to use the equipment here for some gun projects, but they kind of frown upon it:shrug: .

Powerstation Xpert as a post processor. AutoCAD when I'm manually grinding out code or just laying stuff out, as I'm a lot faster with it than anything else I've got.

The oldschool mill that I'm running, only runs straight G code, no fancy stuff like most modern machinery can deal with, but it gets the job done.

Not sure on current school policies, but I'm confident that if today's reaction-levels were in place when I was in highschool, I (and a few of my friends at the time) would have been in a lot of trouble.

[Leon Phelps]

:drool: @ the machinery, that is all.

[denverd0n]

Uh... Isn't making your own lower illegal unless you have a firearm manufacturer's license? Not sure I'd be posting about it on a public forum.

Of do you have the license?

[Grant H.]

Uh... Isn't making your own lower illegal unless you have a firearm manufacturer's license? Not sure I'd be posting about it on a public forum.

Of do you have the license?


Absolutely wrong!!!

The ATF specifically allows the manufacturing of your own receivers assuming you are NOT building with the intent to sell. If you build and then down the road decide to sell after having used, no problem. Hence why you can buy 80% finished lowers without registering and then finish out the 20% of the work, and have an unregistered receiver.

( I want your tools)

On a side note, the angle cut at the back where your buffer tube attaches makes me think AR-10 based off of the Armalite design. For a standard ar-15 this would need to be rounded out. Perhaps I am just looking at early stage pictures though.

Very nice work thus far though.

If interested I have solid works files for 1911, AR-10, AR-15, all kinds of cool stuff.

[ZappBranigan]

If you were a licensed manufacturer, I'd say start making those AR lowers and stash them away for after Hillary becomes president. Remember what happened after the AW ban - AR lowers went from under $100 to over $300 in the space of a few weeks.

[denverd0n]

The ATF specifically allows the manufacturing of your own receivers assuming you are NOT building with the intent to sell.
Ya learn something new every day!

[Grant H.]

Ya learn something new every day!

Join the club. Always picking up new info everyday.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

1) I haven't made a firearm. I've made something that looks like at one point it could be further machined into a firearm. This particular one (see my comment about screwups in the first post) would be somewhere between nonfunctional and downright unsafe if finished out. I plan to finish it out anyway, just to figure out the G code aspect of it, despite that this one will probably never actually be fired.

2) As stated, it is legal provided I'm not building it for sale. A person may legally make any firearm they can legally own, as long as they don't do so in violation of the NFA and other relevant laws (as a "person" and not a properly licensed manufacturer, you can't make a new machine gun, for example).

3) Technically, I can build these for sale provided they're not actually firearms yet. I have no desire to get into that side of business, as I see it as a nightmare both on the legal and on the customer-service sides; the ATF basically says that if it requires more manufacturing work than the average American can easily do to make it a firearm, it's not a firearm. Again, to restate, I have no interest in playing "where's the line" with the ATF, so I'm sharing these pics as a "check out what I'm doing" kind of thing, not a "buy my 80% lower" thing. If you call me to try to buy one of these, I will probably laugh at you. Besides, buying and finishing an 80% AR10 lower is financially foolish--a complete finished Armalite lower stickers under $200.

4) I don't have to be a licensed manufacturer to machine a bunch and stash them away for the potential dark day that Hillary (or worse) might take the oval office. I just have to not do so with the intent of selling them. There are no limitations on how many you can make for yourself, although I'm pretty confident that making several hundred for yourself would probably get you in hot water if the ATF found out. Regardless, I'm pretty well covered--I haven't even properly made one yet.

Grant, it is an Armalite-pattern AR10; DPMS' 308 (not technically an AR10, as the AR10 trademark belongs to Armalite) uses a radius at the back similar to the AR15, just on a bigger scale. That's part of the problem of trying to interchange AR10-pattern parts across manufacturers--this one is patterned off an Armalite, which is angle-cut like a KAC. The Armalite upper will supposedly fit the DPMS lower (with a gap at the back) but not vice versa, as the radius from the DPMS upper would hit the angled portion of the Armalite lower.

BTW, this is legally equivalent to bending one's own flat to build an AK. This just looks more like "manufacturing" where bending an AK flat into an AK receiver looks more like sheetmetal work. Obviously, for the average American, sheetmetal work is easier (the parts are lighter, the margin of error is greater, the forgiveness factor of going too far, or not far enough, is much greater, etc.) but it's functionally equivalent.

[ZappBranigan]

Are you using a CNC machine for that or is it all by hand?

[Grant H.]

Yeah,

A good friend of mine came across a DPMS .308 lower for really cheap and already had a Armalite kit, so he stuck them together and has that gap back there. I just saw the angle cut and immediately said to myself "not an ar-15, but an AR-10".

Any idea what barrel, handguard, and stock configuration you are going to use when you get one going?

[Jake_Blues]

I wish I had the skills and tools to do my own gunsmithing, I would love to build 1911s, but haven't got the tools, or room to set them up even if I did!

-E

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Are you using a CNC machine for that or is it all by hand?

CNC. An antique one (1981 vintage) but ugh, trying to do this by hand would be miserable. I wouldn't bother.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Any idea what barrel, handguard, and stock configuration you are going to use when you get one going?

No clue yet.

Oh, and it's official... it's scrap. I just tried to punch out the buffer tower hole for the stock, and screwed it up good. Ohwell. I've learned a lot, and I'm not done yet.

[DanaT]

Scott you machine that at home??

-Dana

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Yep.

[DanaT]

If I had that in my garage, i would be making a Ti pistol....

As for a previous question, for CAD I use Solidworks and CAM is MasterCAM.

-Dana

[sweater]

If you were a licensed manufacturer, I'd say start making those AR lowers and stash them away for after Hillary becomes president. Remember what happened after the AW ban - AR lowers went from under $100 to over $300 in the space of a few weeks.

...or head up to Jensen's and get 'em for $99 or so. They've usually got lowers comin' out their butts, just no 5.56. :mad:

- mike

[crowdedsilence]

what material are you using

[Scott@Rockstomper]

...or head up to Jensen's and get 'em for $99 or so. They've usually got lowers comin' out their butts, just no 5.56. :mad:


Which is an even bigger vote in the "not worth it" column for machining an AR15 lower yourself. Even if I get this one dialed, I'm still not going to bother with a 15 lower afterwards, unless I come up with some design revision that I just can't live without. If I hadn't made changes to the 10 lower, I wouldn't be bothering to make my own of it, either.

Regardless, as you know, it's the upper (well, technically, barrel and attendant parts) that actually determines caliber... or are you just upset that they're not *marked* 5.56? DPMS and Bushmaster's 15 lowers are marked as both .223 and 5.56; do you want something that's not marked .223 at all? :confused:

[ZappBranigan]

...or head up to Jensen's and get 'em for $99 or so. They've usually got lowers comin' out their butts, just no 5.56. :mad:

- mike

Jensen's? Got a link?

Also, do you mean they don't make the lowers in 5.56? Wouldn't that be the most common/desirable caliber? Or do you mean they don't have any 5.56 ammo?

[Scott@Rockstomper]

what material are you using

6061T651 at the moment; it was what I readily found at my metal supplier in a chunk of reasonable size for this project.

[Trango]

I think he's referring to the fact that, due to high demand on that consumable, it is the fill for finished 5.56 devices that's absent.

[ZappBranigan]

No clue yet.

Oh, and it's official... it's scrap. I just tried to punch out the buffer tower hole for the stock, and screwed it up good. Ohwell. I've learned a lot, and I'm not done yet.

Now you just have a cool paperweight. :D

[ZappBranigan]

I think he's referring to the fact that, due to high demand on that consumable, it is the fill for finished 5.56 devices that's absent.


That's too bad - I've been thinking about picking one up so I could build up an M4 lookalike. There is/was a place in Arvada, I think, that had a bunch of different AR lowers for sale. They had aluminum, plastic, I think even steel lowers. Does anybody know what place that is/was? I heard about it from a friend several years ago, but don't know if they're still around. Seems to me they were somewhere around 44th and Wadsworth or Kipling or something...:shrug:

[Jake_Blues]

Yea, 5.56 ammo is harder to come by and more expensive with the war goin on. On the upside, in a few years there will probably be a glut of it.

I am a .308 shooter myself, and would love to have an AR-10/DPMS 308.

-E

[Grant H.]

If you find an AR-10 or the DPMS .308 lower for $99 bucks you could buy it and sell it for a huge profit.

If you want a cheap but good AR-15 Lower look at Essential Arms. $77 plus your transfer fee I believe.

[sweater]

Jensen's? Got a link?

Also, do you mean they don't make the lowers in 5.56? Wouldn't that be the most common/desirable caliber? Or do you mean they don't have any 5.56 ammo?

www.jensenarms.com (http://www.jensenarms.com/)

Best damn gun shop around, if you're looking for tactical-type-stuff. Fancy over-unders and Weatherby hunting rifles? Notsomuch. AR parts, silencers, door-breaching Mossy 500's and a 10-ft-long rack of "black rifles"? Sure bet.

And I just re-read the retarded post that I made. What I meant is that the last time I was up there they had lots of finished, stripped (no internals) lowers in 5.56/.223, just very little ammunition.

Sorry for the confusion...

- mike

[Scott@Rockstomper]

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000959.JPG

:P

[GarageWheeler]

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
:thumbsup: :hail: :thumbsup: :hail: :thumbsup: :hail:

[newracer]

:thumbsup:

[dmeis]

When do you start giving away? :beer:

[ZappBranigan]

What are the economic breakdowns of the whole buy-an-m4-lower-and-assemble-yourself vs. just buying a pre-assembled (and warranteed) gun from someplace like GM (where I think you can get an M4 lookalike for around $850)?

Do they still make the "parts kits" (i.e., all the parts you need except the lower receiver, can be mail ordered b/c not considered a firearm?) If so, what is a good source for the parts kits?

How easy/difficult is it to assemble for someone not a gunsmith and who doesn't have specialized gunsmithing tools? Is headspacing of the barrel an issue? I've never done anything other than basic field stripping but I knew guys who would take apart the entire lower receiver for cleaning (a big no-no, supposedly, because it caused premature wear on the pins or something.)

[Grant H.]

What are the economic breakdowns of the whole buy-an-m4-lower-and-assemble-yourself vs. just buying a pre-assembled (and warranteed) gun from someplace like GM (where I think you can get an M4 lookalike for around $850)?

Do they still make the "parts kits" (i.e., all the parts you need except the lower receiver, can be mail ordered b/c not considered a firearm?) If so, what is a good source for the parts kits?

How easy/difficult is it to assemble for someone not a gunsmith and who doesn't have specialized gunsmithing tools? Is headspacing of the barrel an issue? I've never done anything other than basic field stripping but I knew guys who would take apart the entire lower receiver for cleaning (a big no-no, supposedly, because it caused premature wear on the pins or something.)

If you dont want all of the tacticool stuff, I have built them for $550 and less. There is no reason to want the guarantee, because there is nothing hard about putting them together.

There is none of the headspacing and stuff that can cause blown up guns with these. The M4 is just a plug and play. I have the barrel wrench and the action clamp and the rest is normal tools around the house.

I can take a pile of parts and turn it into a functioning safe gun in less than 1.5 hours.

Lots of fun.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

What are the economic breakdowns of the whole buy-an-m4-lower-and-assemble-yourself vs. just buying a pre-assembled (and warranteed) gun from someplace like GM (where I think you can get an M4 lookalike for around $850)?

Do they still make the "parts kits" (i.e., all the parts you need except the lower receiver, can be mail ordered b/c not considered a firearm?) If so, what is a good source for the parts kits?

How easy/difficult is it to assemble for someone not a gunsmith and who doesn't have specialized gunsmithing tools? Is headspacing of the barrel an issue? I've never done anything other than basic field stripping but I knew guys who would take apart the entire lower receiver for cleaning (a big no-no, supposedly, because it caused premature wear on the pins or something.)

Bargain side, you can save around $100ish by putting it together yourself, on an AR15. The object in my pics is not an AR15, so economics differ substantially. Additionally, since what I have is also not technically an AR10, the economic side gets sorta-tossed entirely on this project, since I made changes that simply aren't available by any other means.

Back to your question, if you buy a stripped lower and a "rifle kit", you typically get a complete headspaced and ready to drop on upper, and a baggie of parts to go into the lower. Takes about an hour to put together if you don't know what you're doing; can probably be done in ten minutes if you do. It's only marginally more difficult than field stripping one, and if you've field stripped far enough down to get the firing pin out... you're qualified to put the lower parts all together.

When I eventually save up my pennies, I'll probably buy a complete upper for this one, and it'll simply drop on just like an AR15 goes together; the savings can be either substantial, or nonexistent, on this particular build, as if I account for the tooling costs, the time I spent on it, etc., I'd have been a long ways ahead to buy a complete AR10 ($2200 for the closest equivalent to what this is slated to eventually become) but if I don't account for my time and whatnot, I'll probably end up about a grand cheaper on this build.

In reality, I probably won't actually end up a grand under, because I won't be using my "leftover" GI pistol grip (subbing it out for something better, dunno what yet), because I'll add a couple other premium parts (match trigger instead of GI, maybe a nicer stock, etc.) but I'll likely end up with a nicer rifle, for a little less money, than what Armalite gets for the "standard product".

[ZappBranigan]

Thanks for the info, guys. Can you point me to a good source for the rifle kits? A basic M4 with a removable handguard (but still with iron sights) is basically what I'd want. I can add the ACOG/Laser sight/Death ray later on. :D

[Scott@Rockstomper]

http://www.del-ton.com and you can build-out your own rifle kit.

You'll have to source your own stripped lower separately (as "the firearm", it requires a background check, which makes for interesting conversation at the gunshop while you wait and the other customers ask "you have to get a background check to buy a block of metal?") but the rest of the kit can ship directly to you.

[ZappBranigan]

Wow, good stuff! :thumbsup:

I noticed that on the kits the upper is completely assembled, so as long as you can assemble all the bits and pieces in the lower receiver, it should go together easy.

[ZappBranigan]

Does anyone know if Eagle Firearms in Arvada is still around? Their web site mentions that Eagle will be closing and talks about a closing sale that was conducted back in August. I find it odd that the web page is still up, though.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Does anyone know if Eagle Firearms in Arvada is still around? Their web site mentions that Eagle will be closing and talks about a closing sale that was conducted back in August. I find it odd that the web page is still up, though.

I tried to buy some parts from them a while back; they were nearly impossible to reach on the phone and didn't respond to email; eventually, I got ahold of them on the phone and was told that what I wanted was out of stock (website had it listed in stock) and that I could email them to get on the waiting list for when more showed up... that email went unresponded-to as well for about four months, then I got an email that they had gotten more parts in, by which time I'd long since bought what I wanted (different brand, ohwell) at Jensen Arms in Loveland.

My experience suggests that the counter/phone and the web folks there, have only occasional contact; as such, it wouldn't surprise me if they're out of business and simply haven't bothered to take down the site yet. A lot of ISP's give deals on web hosting if you buy a year at a time (my own is that way) and prepay; go out of business in the meantime, your site doesn't come down till your current year (whenever it started) runs out, unless you take it down.

[Jake_Blues]

You'll have to source your own stripped lower separately (as "the firearm", it requires a background check, which makes for interesting conversation at the gunshop while you wait and the other customers ask "you have to get a background check to buy a block of metal?") but the rest of the kit can ship directly to you.

I was just in Jensen's two days ago and they have a BUNCH of stripped lowers laying around. I didn't pay attention to what brand they were since I'm not in the market for one, but they had them laying around all over the place. I know they carry DPMS and Rock River Arms, probably more.

-E

[ZappBranigan]

I was just in Jensen's two days ago and they have a BUNCH of stripped lowers laying around. I didn't pay attention to what brand they were since I'm not in the market for one, but they had them laying around all over the place. I know they carry DPMS and Rock River Arms, probably more.

-E

Do you remember what they were selling for, approximately? A quick google search turned up a bunch but the least expensive was around $130.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Do you remember what they were selling for, approximately? A quick google search turned up a bunch but the least expensive was around $130.

$110-160 is what you'll usually see for forged lowers; a little less for cast, a lot more for billet. 90% of what you'll find on the market currently is forged, and IMO, it's not worth the few bucks you might save to order-in a cheaper lower and pay shipping and transfer, vs. buying one of whatever brand is on the shelf locally.

[Jake_Blues]

Do you remember what they were selling for, approximately? A quick google search turned up a bunch but the least expensive was around $130.

I didn't even look at them, other than to notice they were strewn all over the place, sorry. I don't even know which brand they are, but I'm guessing RRA cause they sell a ton of it.

-E

[newracer]

Eagle Firearms has closed.

[kdl_golden]

5280 had a few as well 720-898-4747.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84958943

Here is a forged lower for $119

[ZappBranigan]

5280 had a few as well 720-898-4747.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84958943

Here is a forged lower for $119

Well...if I read his "rules" correctly that would be $119 + tax + the $25 "pickup charge". Comes out to $153. Not much of a bargain, it seems to me.

[karstman]

Jensens usually has some DPMS lowers for around $100 and they had some Sabre Defence at $130 if memory serves me right.

[ZappBranigan]

Jensens usually has some DPMS lowers for around $100 and they had some Sabre Defence at $130 if memory serves me right.

Jensens actually seems to be the place to go. All those "conditions" on the AK47man site make me a bit leery. It's also a little unprofessional - makes it look like a shoestring operation.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Jensens actually seems to be the place to go. All those "conditions" on the AK47man site make me a bit leery. It's also a little unprofessional - makes it look like a shoestring operation.

Just occurred to me, from Englewood, it might be a shorter drive to Colorado Springs for you, than to go up to Loveland.

Might talk to Pete at http://www.evil-black-rifles.com as well, he's not a regular-retail-style gunshop, but definitely a good guy and really knows AR's and the parts to go with.

[ZappBranigan]

Just occurred to me, from Englewood, it might be a shorter drive to Colorado Springs for you, than to go up to Loveland.

Might talk to Pete at http://www.evil-black-rifles.com as well, he's not a regular-retail-style gunshop, but definitely a good guy and really knows AR's and the parts to go with.

Thanks for the tip. That might be a bit closer.

[Grant H.]

Also you can get your FFL to order this in
http://essentialarms.com/forged%20lower%20receiver.htm


These are actually pretty good receivers. A lot of guys wanting a budget build are using these.

[kdl_golden]

Jensens actually seems to be the place to go. All those "conditions" on the AK47man site make me a bit leery. It's also a little unprofessional - makes it look like a shoestring operation.

Running on a shoestring is what is keeping him around; you could always run over to Gander or Bass Pro and ask about their lowers :rolleyes: . Matt has always been very cool to deal with and I just posted to show what he had. If you were serious, you should go by and see what he has and deal face to face. What he posts in his auctions is to keep the flakes away, he has always given me great deals in the store. Or spend a few hours and a tank of gas and head up to Jensens, nothing against them, but it is a ways from here.

[ZappBranigan]

Or speand a few hours and a tank of gas and head up to Jensens, nothing against them, but it is a ways from here.

If it's a nice day I'd just hop on the bike and ride up there. I can go 100 miles on about six and a half bucks worth of gas.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

With borrowed optic, but hey, it's progress...

http://www.rockstomper.com/firearms/ar10/IM000042.JPG

[dmeis]

WOW!

I'm coming over to touch it.

[OrangeCrush]

Scott,
Does it use Armalite mags or the DPMS type?

[Eric]

WOW!

I'm coming over to touch it.
Sig quote material :eek:

[Rough Ranger]

Nice work Scott!

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Does it use Armalite mags or the DPMS type?

Armalite.

It's mechanically a copy of an Armalite lower, but with some changes made to make it "my own" (as I think were noted earlier in this thread) where I could and wanted to make changes.

So, with the exception of a standard M4 carbine stock and an aftermarket buffer (instead of the longer-than-carbine-but-shorter-than-rifle Armalite AR10-special stock and buffer), all the moving parts are Armalite or interchangeable therewith (trigger is actually an RRA NM unit).

The one in the pic is the second attempt; it has some screwups, and isn't technically "done", but should be test-fireable at this point.