researching gay siblings

[Gags]

Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality
By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer
Mon Oct 15, 6:56 PM

CHICAGO - Julio and Mauricio Cabrera are gay brothers who are convinced their sexual orientation is as deeply rooted as their Mexican ancestry. They are among 1,000 pairs of gay brothers taking part in the largest study to date seeking genes that may influence whether people are gay.

The Cabreras hope the findings will help silence critics who say homosexuality is an immoral choice.

If fresh evidence is found suggesting genes are involved, perhaps homosexuality will be viewed as no different than other genetic traits like height and hair color, said Julio, a student at DePaul University in Chicago.

Adds his brother, "I think it would help a lot of folks understand us better."

The federally funded study, led by Chicago-area researchers, will rely on blood or saliva samples to help scientists search for genetic clues to the origins of homosexuality. Parents and straight brothers also are being recruited.

While initial results aren't expected until next year _ and won't provide a final answer _ skeptics are already attacking the methods and disputing the presumed results.

Previous studies have shown that sexual orientation tends to cluster in families, though that doesn't prove genetics is involved. Extended families may share similar child-rearing practices, religion and other beliefs that could also influence sexual orientation.

Research involving identical twins, often used to study genetics since they share the same DNA, has had mixed results.

One widely cited study in the 1990s found that if one member of a pair of identical twins was gay, the other had a 52 percent chance of being gay. In contrast, the result for pairs of non-twin brothers, was 9 percent. A 2000 study of Australian identical twins found a much lower chance.

Dr. Alan Sanders of Evanston Northwestern Healthcare Research Institute, the lead researcher of the new study, said he suspects there isn't one so-called "gay gene."

It is more likely there are several genes that interact with nongenetic factors, including psychological and social influences, to determine sexual orientation, said Sanders, a psychiatrist.

Still, he said, "If there's one gene that makes a sizable contribution, we have a pretty good chance" of finding it.

Many gays fear that if gay genes are identified, it could result in discrimination, prenatal testing and even abortions to eliminate homosexuals, said Joel Ginsberg of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association.

However, he added, "If we confirm that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic, we are much more likely to get the courts to rule against discrimination."

There is less research on lesbians, Sanders said, although some studies suggest that male and female sexual orientation may have different genetic influences.

His new research is an attempt to duplicate and expand on a study published in 1993 involving 40 pairs of gay brothers. That hotly debated study, wrongly touted as locating "the gay gene," found that gay brothers shared genetic markers in a region on the X chromosome, which men inherit from their mothers.

That implies that any genes influencing sexual orientation lie somewhere in that region.

Previous attempts to duplicate those results failed. But Sanders said that with so many participants, his study has a better chance of finding the same markers and perhaps others on different chromosomes.

If these markers appear in gay brothers but not their straight brothers or parents, that would suggest a link to sexual orientation. The study is designed to find genetic markers, not to explain any genetic role in behavior.

And Sanders said even if he finds no evidence, that won't mean genetics play no role; it may simply mean that individual genes have a smaller effect.

Skeptics include Stanton Jones, a psychology professor and provost at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill. An evangelical Christian, Jones last month announced results of a study he co-authored that says it's possible for gays to "convert" _ changing their sexual orientation without harm.

Jones said his results suggest biology plays only a minor role in sexual orientation, and that researchers seeking genetic clues generally have a pro-gay agenda that will produce biased results.

Sanders disputed that criticism.

"We do not have a predetermined point we are trying to prove," he said. "We are trying to pry some of nature's secrets loose with respect to a fundamental human trait."

Jones acknowledged that he's not a neutral observer. His study involved 98 gays "seeking help" from Exodus International, a Christian group that believes homosexuals can become straight through prayer and counseling. Exodus International funded Jones' study.

The group's president, Alan Chambers, said he is a former homosexual who went straight and believes homosexuality is morally wrong.

Even if research ultimately shows that genetics play a bigger role, it "will never be something that forces people to behave in a certain way," Chambers said. "We all have the freedom to choose."

The Cabrera brothers grew up in Mexico in a culture where "being gay was an embarrassment," especially for their father, said Mauricio, 41, a car dealership employee from Olathe, Kan.

They had cousins who were gay, but Mauricio said he still felt he had to hide his sexual orientation and he struggled with his "double life." Julio said having an older brother who was gay made it easier for him to accept his sexuality.

Jim Larkin, 54, a gay journalist in Flint, Mich., said the genetics study is a move in the right direction.

Given the difficulties of being gay in a predominantly straight society, homosexuality "is not a choice someone would make in life," said Larkin, who is not a study participant.

He had two brothers who were gay. One died from AIDS; the other committed suicide. Larkin said he didn't come out until he was 26.

"I fought and I prayed and I went to Mass and I said the rosary," Larkin said. "I moved away from everybody I knew ... thinking maybe this will cause the feelings to subside. It doesn't."

[Jake_Blues]

There is less research on lesbians, Sanders said, although some studies suggest that male and female sexual orientation may have different genetic influences.


I'm gonna stand up right now and say I'm willing to assist with any research on lesbians that might be required.


Skeptics include Stanton Jones, a psychology professor and provost at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill. An evangelical Christian, Jones last month announced results of a study he co-authored that says it's possible for gays to "convert" _ changing their sexual orientation without harm.

Jones said his results suggest biology plays only a minor role in sexual orientation, and that researchers seeking genetic clues generally have a pro-gay agenda that will produce biased results.


http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp

-E

[Waifer2112]

^^^^^^^
:spit:

[Gags]

I'm gonna stand up right now and say I'm willing to assist with any research on lesbians that might be required.



http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp

-E

LOL, :beer:

[Tom N]

Too long to read it all. Federally funded. Swell.

[vb]

they already did a 20plus year study of the same thing out of cu. my first cousins were part of the study. the study got the wrong results though, one of the cousins is and the other aint. the study found similar results all over the place. not good for those that want to claim its a genetic thing.

guess these goof balls will keep getting federal money till some one can come up with a way to have the study show that homsexuality is in the genes! gonna be tough since homosexuality is a decission.

[Gags]

they already did a 20plus year study of the same thing out of cu. my first cousins were part of the study. the study got the wrong results though, one of the cousins is and the other aint. the study found similar results all over the place. not good for those that want to claim its a genetic thing.

guess these goof balls will keep getting federal money till some one can come up with a way to have the study show that homsexuality is in the genes! gonna be tough since homosexuality is a decission.

Well, we can't cure cancer because we don't know enough. The best anti-venom we make is done by injecting horses with the venom. We can't figure out the complex proteins doesn't mean we won't ever.

Science provides answers when they can. Research is not a bad thing.

[vb]

i dont think that these studies are aimed at a cure though.

[1BGDOG]

i dont think that these studies are aimed at a cure though.


they are sick?:confused:

[sweater]

gonna be tough since homosexuality is a decission.
...and you don't have anything to back your opinion any more than this study might back the opposite opinion.

Trying to state anything as fact in something like this (the origin of gay-ness or something) is kinda retarded.

Still don't understand why people give a crap who has sex with who, as long as both parties can consent to it. Those that do need to find something better to do, IMHO.

- mike

[Jake_Blues]

I just can't figure out how people can think that homosexuality is a conscious decision. I can see it being caused by genetics, or upbringing, or a combination of the two, but not something you somehow talk yourself into.

I cannot fathom how some guy would sit down and say "You know, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women, but instead I am going to find myself a man to love, because I enjoy being hated, ridiculed, beaten up (sometimes to death), and generally discriminated against." I mean, what is the upside? Wouldn't this be like CHOOSING to be black in 1950s Alabama, or to be Jewish in Nazi Germany?

Me, personally, being straight, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women. I cannot imagine any normal set of circumstances that would make me want to go against that desire. I can see someone PRETENDING to be gay if they see some social upside like popularity, but actually following through with it and having sex with another guy? No way!

Homosexuals are (from the ones I've known) the exact same way. They are really, REALLY attracted to members of the same sex. Some of them might PRETEND to be straight to avoid the hate, ridicule, being beaten to death, etc. But they still really REALLY want someone of the same sex when it comes down to it.

I don't understand how any guy could want to have sex with another guy, I find it completely distasteful to even contemplate (and I know at least one homosexual person who feels exactly the same way, but in reverse). This is why I believe it must be something you are born with, because no one would go against such a strong feeling by choice.

-E

[sweater]

"You know, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women, but instead I am going to find myself a man to love, because I enjoy being hated, ridiculed, beaten up (sometimes to death), and generally discriminated against."

x 2

Can't remember the last time I heard of some gay guys kicking the sh*t out of some dude because he was straight.

- mike

[vb]

Well, we can't cure cancer because we don't know enough. The best anti-venom we make is done by injecting horses with the venom. We can't figure out the complex proteins doesn't mean we won't ever.

Science provides answers when they can. Research is not a bad thing.


gags seems to be classifying homosexuallity with deseases and poisons. deseases and poisons that most folks dont want. that need a cure in order to survive.

[vb]

...and you don't have anything to back your opinion any more than this study might back the opposite opinion.

Trying to state anything as fact in something like this (the origin of gay-ness or something) is kinda retarded.

Still don't understand why people give a crap who has sex with who, as long as both parties can consent to it. Those that do need to find something better to do, IMHO.

- mike


not my opinion. my first cousin readily admits that its a choice. my boss at the proof many years ago when i was bouncing there said "choice" so did his ?friend. my second wifes dad and his mate, my boss at an engineering firm when i first got out of school, the list goes on...... ive known many homosexuals very very well over the years.

and , there is no proof any where that says that homosexuality is not a choice. they continue to do these stuies in hopes that some how some where some on will be able to give those that make the choice a reason to say " you must except my behaviour, i was born this way"

[vb]

I just can't figure out how people can think that homosexuality is a conscious decision. I can see it being caused by genetics, or upbringing, or a combination of the two, but not something you somehow talk yourself into.

I cannot fathom how some guy would sit down and say "You know, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women, but instead I am going to find myself a man to love, because I enjoy being hated, ridiculed, beaten up (sometimes to death), and generally discriminated against." I mean, what is the upside? Wouldn't this be like CHOOSING to be black in 1950s Alabama, or to be Jewish in Nazi Germany?

Me, personally, being straight, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women. I cannot imagine any normal set of circumstances that would make me want to go against that desire. I can see someone PRETENDING to be gay if they see some social upside like popularity, but actually following through with it and having sex with another guy? No way!

Homosexuals are (from the ones I've known) the exact same way. They are really, REALLY attracted to members of the same sex. Some of them might PRETEND to be straight to avoid the hate, ridicule, being beaten to death, etc. But they still really REALLY want someone of the same sex when it comes down to it.

I don't understand how any guy could want to have sex with another guy, I find it completely distasteful to even contemplate (and I know at least one homosexual person who feels exactly the same way, but in reverse). This is why I believe it must be something you are born with, because no one would go against such a strong feeling by choice.

-E


i dont see it as any diferent then those that choose kids. while you and i might not be able to get there, others do. its no different then those that like to swap. id never be able to get there but many do. those that choose to do a woman in the "other" location. id never dream of doing that yet many do.
just because you cant emagine it, does not mean that it does not go on. its the same for those that choose to rob , or murder. while most folks would never gives those things a second thought, there are those that do. its deviant behaviour. how can it be explained?

[Gags]

gags seems to be classifying homosexuallity with deseases and poisons. deseases and poisons that most folks dont want. that need a cure in order to survive.

I'm sorry, my point was that just because prior research has not turned up any answers does not mean we shouldn't try more. The examples I gave where ideally meant to show that we don't have a lot of answers for things that are relatively common and can kill us; but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still search for answers.

[Jake_Blues]

those that choose to do a woman in the "other" location.


What, like in the living room?

-E

[Gags]

I just can't figure out how people can think that homosexuality is a conscious decision. I can see it being caused by genetics, or upbringing, or a combination of the two, but not something you somehow talk yourself into.

I cannot fathom how some guy would sit down and say "You know, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women, but instead I am going to find myself a man to love, because I enjoy being hated, ridiculed, beaten up (sometimes to death), and generally discriminated against." I mean, what is the upside? Wouldn't this be like CHOOSING to be black in 1950s Alabama, or to be Jewish in Nazi Germany?

Me, personally, being straight, I really, REALLY want to have sex with women. I cannot imagine any normal set of circumstances that would make me want to go against that desire. I can see someone PRETENDING to be gay if they see some social upside like popularity, but actually following through with it and having sex with another guy? No way!

Homosexuals are (from the ones I've known) the exact same way. They are really, REALLY attracted to members of the same sex. Some of them might PRETEND to be straight to avoid the hate, ridicule, being beaten to death, etc. But they still really REALLY want someone of the same sex when it comes down to it.

I don't understand how any guy could want to have sex with another guy, I find it completely distasteful to even contemplate (and I know at least one homosexual person who feels exactly the same way, but in reverse). This is why I believe it must be something you are born with, because no one would go against such a strong feeling by choice.

-E

Just one thing, it is not unheard of for people to self mutilate, self desparage, hate themselves and so on. Meaning, putting oneself out there knowingly to be ridiculed at times does not disqualify "it's a choice."

But I have to agree with Sweater, it shouldn't matter whether it's genetic or a choice this is supposed to be a free society where people are allowed to make their own choices about how they live their lives without the threat of violence and prejudice. At least, if that's what he was saying...

Yes, the real world is full of violence and prejudice but that doesn't mean it can't behave better. It's more f@cking fun that way.

[sweater]

But I have to agree with Sweater, it shouldn't matter whether it's genetic or a choice this is supposed to be a free society where people are allowed to make their own choices about how they live their lives without the threat of violence and prejudice. At least, if that's what he was saying...

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. :thumbsup:

Quit sticking your nose in my business, is what I'd say. And quit playing the victim to how much teh gays are ruining society or some other scapegoat tactic.

- mike

[Budman]

Just one thing, it is not unheard of for people to self mutilate, self desparage, hate themselves and so on. Meaning, putting oneself out there knowingly to be ridiculed at times does not disqualify "it's a choice."

But I have to agree with Sweater, it shouldn't matter whether it's genetic or a choice this is supposed to be a free society where people are allowed to make their own choices about how they live their lives (within the limits of what we as a society say is okay) without the threat of violence and prejudice. At least, if that's what he was saying...

Okay, I have already made my gay bashing debates this month, but here we go again.

Federal funding: This type of thing has no purpose being Federally funded. i am all for federal research of things that have a positive effect on society, but I just don't see it here. Research a cure for Cancer, Aids, Alshiemers, parkinsons etc... Absolutely... Looking for a "Gay Gene" I just don't see the benefit to society here (please feel free to correct convince me). I have really tried to see how this can benefit us all with an open mind reguardless of how it comes out, and I just don't see a medical/financial etc benefit to it.

The results: I really and truely hope they come up with indisputable results one way or the other AND PUBLISH the un edited facts. That way this can be over and we can move on with our lives.

So you're gay: I don't care, just keep it to your self, and stop wanting special treatment, stop trying to make your minority way of life the norm, and stop trying to force me to accept it. I don't care what you do at home behind your closed doors, but I refuse to accept your open homosexuality as OK. Just as I refuse to accept drug use or any other moral issue that I have a STRONG belief on. The majority rules in this country, and you are not in the majority. Get over it and get on with life. If your way of thinking ever makes the majority, you can change things. Until then sorry, don't like it move to Iran...

Hate Crimes: Wouldn't you say that almost any physical crime against a person is a hate crime??? I mean I am a white male, and if I beat the hell out of another white male, isn't it a hate crime??? If I beat the hell out of a green male, there is just as much hate there. The term hate crime needs to go away, it is just a crime. Plain and simple crime, and people who assult, murder, rape etc should be punished accordingly. I don't hate you because you are gay anymore than I hate you because you are a bleeding heart liberal. You are just wrong, I know it, and you don't. That is the plain and simple of it.

People who hate others just for being gay: Plain and simple, they are stupid ignant (spelled that way on purpose) biggots who deserve to have thier heads adjusted with a big ole whoopin stick...

Gag's quote above: I really wanted to agree with them, but I was stuck on the second one. I agree with it to a point. I tried to edit it so I can agree with it, and I think I said what I wanted to. I hope it comes off like I meant it.

Flame suit on...

[Budman]

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. :thumbsup:

Quit sticking your nose in my business, is what I'd say. And quit playing the victim to how much teh gays are ruining society or some other scapegoat tactic.

- mike


Speaking for me and only me now...

If you don't stick your business in my face, and in my living room, I will not bother you...

However, You keep throwing your business in my face, and in my living room, and asking for special treatment because you feel special... Then you are asking me to get into your business.

[denverd0n]

...homosexuality is a decission.
Yeah. Just like heterosexuality. So which one did you choose?

[denverd0n]

You keep throwing your business in my face, and in my living room...
Homosexuals have been breaking into your home and screwing in your living room!!??!! Wow! I'd be pretty pissed off, too!

Oh, wait! You mean the occasional homosexual that shows up on TV, don't you? See, I forgot that your TV is the one and only in the whole world that doesn't allow you to turn it off, or change the channel.

:rolleyes:

[vb]

Yeah. Just like heterosexuality. So which one did you choose?


not "just like".

we are born hetero. check out the design for yourself. men and women were made their special ways for reasons. two men or two women do not "fit together" in the same way that man and woman do.

no one is born homosexual. everyone is born hetero. thats where the choice comes in.

as far as those "occasional" shows; they arent. the agenda is in most of the programing these days

[Budman]

not "just like".

we are born hetero. check out the design for yourself. men and women were made their special ways for reasons. two men or two women do not "fit together" in the same way that man and woman do.

no one is born homosexual. everyone is born hetero. thats where the choice comes in.

as far as those "occasional" shows; they arent. the agenda is in most of the programing these days

Dude where were you a few weeks ago when I was having this argument with these guys.

[Jake_Blues]

Just one thing, it is not unheard of for people to self mutilate, self desparage, hate themselves and so on. Meaning, putting oneself out there knowingly to be ridiculed at times does not disqualify "it's a choice."


True, although you'd be claiming that 5%-10% of the human population is engaging in homosexuality just to be self destructive.

I still want someone to explain to me why there is a percentage of homosexuality in many animal species, if this is just a decision people are making. Are cattle and penguins and swans part of the gay agenda conspiracy?

-E

[Oscar]

Mental critters too :D

[Budman]

I still want someone to explain to me why there is a percentage of homosexuality in many animal species, if this is just a decision people are making. Are cattle and penguins and swans part of the gay agenda conspiracy?

-E


For the same reason some aminals eat thier off spring, or that animals flip out and do other crazy things animals do.

[Jake_Blues]

For the same reason some aminals eat thier off spring, or that animals flip out and do other crazy things animals do.

Sorry, not buying it. There are definite behavioral/evolutionary reasons why some animals kill their offspring, the animals aren't just flipping out. Males will often kill the offspring of females if they have recently become the dominant male or taken a new mate, for instance. This ensures that the offspring are theirs. Females will often eat their own young if they are in a hostile environment (captivity, scarce food, etc), in order to increase the chances of their own survival. They aren't just going insane.

-E

[TheCopperCowboy]

If you are giving me money, you got my attention.
If you are taking money from me, you got my attention.
If your yard is lowering my property value, you got my attention.
If you are slowing me down in traffic, you got my attention.
If you push your version of humanity on me, you got my attention.
If your intentions are to cause harm to me and / or my family, you got my attention.
If you're gay, a bigot, a racist, a caveman, a psycho, someone who uses a bully pulpit, or just the standard, run of the mill a$$hole, I could care less, unless you are demanding my attention. :flipoff2:

[Budman]

If you are giving me money, you got my attention.
If you are taking money from me, you got my attention.
If your yard is lowering my property value, you got my attention.
If you are slowing me down in traffic, you got my attention.
If you push your version of humanity on me, you got my attention.
If your intentions are to cause harm to me and / or my family, you got my attention.
If you're gay, a bigot, a racist, a caveman, a psycho, someone who uses a bully pulpit, or just the standard, run of the mill a$$hole, I could care less, unless you are demanding my attention. :flipoff2:

OMFG!!! I had to read this post like 6 times, but I think I agree with the Cowboy on this one.

[Budman]

Sorry, not buying it. There are definite behavioral/evolutionary reasons why some animals kill their offspring, the animals aren't just flipping out. Males will often kill the offspring of females if they have recently become the dominant male or taken a new mate, for instance. This ensures that the offspring are theirs. Females will often eat their own young if they are in a hostile environment (captivity, scarce food, etc), in order to increase the chances of their own survival. They aren't just going insane.

-E

And some animals, are just animals. There are monkeys who eat thier own poo, there are animals who drink the urine of the females to see if they are in heat. Just because a couple of animals do it does not make it right for us. We are humans... We have opposing thumbs, we are supposed to be capable of rational thought etc. Saying being gay is okay because there are a pair of gay penguins is like saying... It is okay to murder and eat someone because lions do it all the time. Or better yet, (to use your own logic) for my wife to kill our kids becasue we are short on food this month. That dog just won't hunt here.

[Gags]

True, although you'd be claiming that 5%-10% of the human population is engaging in homosexuality just to be self destructive.

I still want someone to explain to me why there is a percentage of homosexuality in many animal species, if this is just a decision people are making. Are cattle and penguins and swans part of the gay agenda conspiracy?

-E

I agree with you.

[scottycards]

A bunch of straight people, (well, as far as we know- we thought the same of Haggard) arguing nature vs. nurture with regards to homosexuality.

Almost as ironic as men arguing whether abortion is right or wrong.

As you can tell, I have nothing of value to add to this discussion, other than to be a "richard". :flipoff2:

Please continue.

[Jake_Blues]

And some animals, are just animals. There are monkeys who eat thier own poo, there are animals who drink the urine of the females to see if they are in heat. Just because a couple of animals do it does not make it right for us. We are humans... We have opposing thumbs, we are supposed to be capable of rational thought etc. Saying being gay is okay because there are a pair of gay penguins is like saying... It is okay to murder and eat someone because lions do it all the time. Or better yet, (to use your own logic) for my wife to kill our kids becasue we are short on food this month. That dog just won't hunt here.

I raised that point not to discuss whether being gay is "OK" or not, but to discuss how and why people are homosexual, which has been the topic all along.

If human beings are making some sort of rational decision to engage in the "unnatural" act of homosexuality, then why is it so prevalent across so many animal species?

What social advantage does homosexuality bestow that would cause a percentage of human beings throughout recorded history to choose it? At times and in various cultures, homosexuality has been either accepted as normal, tolerated as abnormal but allowed, or even punishable by death (a la modern day Iran). Despite this, the practice persists, even in those areas where it could get you killed.

Why would an otherwise fairly normal, rational, intelligent person choose to face the very real risk of death to do something if they don't even really want to do it in the first place?

And, again, how do animals, especially more solitary ones like bears with very little social structure, "choose" this "lifestyle"? To say that of the hundreds or thousands of animal species in which homosexual behaviors have been observed are all just doing it because they are "insane" is an unbelievable claim, especially in species where it practiced by the majority of the species.

This has nothing to do with whether homosexuality is morally right or wrong, only what causes it.

-E

[Gags]

A bunch of straight people, (well, as far as we know- we thought the same of Haggard) arguing nature vs. nurture with regards to homosexuality.

Almost as ironic as men arguing whether abortion is right or wrong.

As you can tell, I have nothing of value to add to this discussion, other than to be a "richard". :flipoff2:

Please continue.

hhmmm, Scotty"Richard"Cards :beer:

[scottycards]

hhmmm, Scotty"Richard"Cards :beer:

I didn't think use of the word "dick", or even "ass" would have been a good choice, considering the context of this thread........:cool:

[Gags]

I didn't think use of the word "dick", or even "ass" would have been a good choice, considering the context of this thread........:cool:

I was gonna say, if you're a "richard" what am I.

[sweater]

we are born hetero. check out the design for yourself. men and women were made their special ways for reasons. two men or two women do not "fit together" in the same way that man and woman do.

Ah, the whole physical design part.

Well, not everyone is born with a straight up well-formed vagina or a well-formed penis. That much is fact (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12476264&dopt=AbstractPlus). Meaning, many studies have been done where the physical characteristics of an infant were ambiguous enough to fall in-between what you may consider "male" or "female". Meaning: there are several tens of thousands of babies born every year where you or I would take a look at their genitalia and wouldn't be able to classify them as male or female.

Those infants grow up to be people who have a hard time making things "fit together."

Did they choose be born that way? Might there be other physical characteristics that an infant can be born with that might produce variations in physical ability, mental disposition, and so on?

Nature is reeeeeaaaaaaaalllllllllly diverse. Trying to cram it into categories is pointless. Human, in the sense that it helps one to avoid having to deal with diversity, but pointless nonetheless.

- mike

[Batgirl]

Oh.

From the thread's title, I thought ya'll were talking about the Italian Monsignor and HIS 'research' about being gay. My bad.

"It's all false; it was a trap. I was a victim of my own attempts to contribute to cleaning up the Church with my psychoanalyst work," Stenico said. He said he was heterosexual, but was still staying celibate. :rolleyes:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3728611

[scottycards]

If you don't believe in gay marriage, blame the sraight people.
they are the ones who keep having gay babies.

Sighted on a bumper sticker. Super funnay.