Bush Supporters

[Andy1333]

Tonight Bush will announce that our military presence in Iraq is PERMANENT!
Considering that after 54 years we still have 33,000 troops in Korea are you still going to support Bush's vision for the future? Is their anything more we can do to galvanize the Muslim world into hating us as occupiers? It didn't work for the British, French, Germans, or Russians....Do you think its going to work for us?

[scottycards]

:popcorn: :bbq:

[Oscar]

uhm yea bush put the troops in korea that too is his fault

[Clint]

I support Andy1333 to fix everything:poke:

[Andy1333]

Will we ever learn from past mistakes in our history?

[Sound_Man]

Will we ever learn from past mistakes in our history?
nope guess not

[Clint]

We didnt elect Al Gore, so maybe there is hope yet?:stirpot:

[Yota]

:lmao:

[Andy1333]

Do the supporters of this new policy realize that in 5,10 or 20 years their children may be called to serve and possibly die in Iraq? For what? Are there any Iraq War veterans who can explain it to me?

[Sound_Man]

Do the supporters of this new policy realize that in 5,10 or 20 years their children may be called to serve and possibly die in Iraq? For what? Are there any Iraq War veterans who can explain it to me?
I am one and I can tell you this. I went there so my kids won't have to and so you can sleep all comfy in your bed tonight MMMMMKKAAAAAAYYYYYYY

[Clint]

Link to "new policy" of setting up camp permanently? Or are you a Washington insider?

[Andy1333]

Soundman,
Having served in the military 1970 -1978 I too may have allowed you or your parents to sleep better ...but now that you know that our military is likely to still be there when your children are of age to serve what do you think?

[Yota]

Dude if our military presence in Iraq could become analogous to our military presence in S. Korea, Germany, the Phillipines, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, England, Guam, The Netherlands, Italy, Japan, Bahrain, Cuba, Diego Garcia, Greece, Iceland and fawking Spain, I would jump for joy and maybe even do a backflip.

It's not the staying that bothers me, it's the leaving-before-the-job-is-finished.

[scottycards]

Well, the 7 soldiers (2 of whom are now dead, one critically injured) who did the piece "The War as We Saw It", had some very interesting insight.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/opinion/19jayamaha.html?ei=5090&en=5a8349a0e944e61b&ex=1345176000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

It's a pretty sobering read, and I hadn't seen it posted on this forum, so I thought I'd pass it along.

[TheCopperCowboy]

Like that has never been done before. :rolleyes:

[Hippie]

:feedtroll: :feedtroll: :feedtroll:

:ban: :ban: :ban:

[Andy1333]

Dude if our military presence in Iraq could become analogous to our military presence in S. Korea, Germany, the Phillipines, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, England, Guam, The Netherlands, Italy, Japan, Bahrain, Cuba, Diego Garcia, Greece, Iceland and fawking Spain, I would jump for joy and maybe even do a backflip.

It's not the staying that bothers me, it's the leaving-before-the-job-is-finished.

Every country that you listed had a functional government. That does not exist in Iraq. I've been on our bases in most of the countires you mentioned and felt that the local population supported or at least tolerated our presence. What percentage of the Iraqi population want us to stay? If the job is never finished what then?

[Clint]

Link to "new policy" of setting up camp permanently? Or are you a Washington insider?


Well???

:feedtroll::troll:

[Andy1333]

Well???

:feedtroll::troll:

Got it straight from my uncle Cheney

[Rimmer]

Every country that you listed had a functional government. That does not exist in Iraq. I've been on our bases in most of the countires you mentioned and felt that the local population supported or at least tolerated our presence. What percentage of the Iraqi population want us to stay? If the job is never finished what then?

Even our own country " The good old USA " took 11 years to even finalize a constitution...

I spent a year in the Sunni Triangle, and I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of the Iraqi's that I had to deal with, loved us, and did everything they could to help us find and catch bad guys...

Building Democracies, or even their version will take time, it won't happen overnight.

And I have also been to bases in a lot of those countries, I defended Europe during the cold war.

They still occasionally shoot at each other across the Korean Border, after how many years ?

If you think that after we took out saddam, they would all do a group hug, thank us and sing Kumbaya as we departed right away, then you have a lot to learn about Nation Building and Foreign Affairs.

[Budman]

to reply or not to reply that is the question...

[Budman]

Every country that you listed HAS a functional government.

Fixed that one for you.

Most of these countries did not have governments or even exist when we began our "occupation.

[ZappBranigan]

Fixed that one for you.

Most of these countries did not have governments or even exist when we began our "occupation.

You beat me to it....:D

Count me as another OIF and OEF veteran who's for finishing what we started.

[Oscar]

yup we are going to gitter done

[MonkeyBomb]

I gotta laugh at the build a democracy in a day folks. How about a little US history. Anyone remember how long we were not under the Constitution but the articles of confederation? And how long it took to ratify that. Articles were drawn up in 1777 ratified in 1781 and the constitution was adopted in 1787. These things take time and alot of it. You can't just displace government and withdraw without stabilizing the Government or Quasi government. Unless You want an even worse terrorist government to oppress the people there.:shrug:

[Budman]

[/RIGHT]QUOTE=ZappBranigan;877727]You beat me to it....:D

Count me as another OIF and OEF veteran who's for finishing what we started.[/QUOTE]

yup we are going to gitter done

I gotta laugh at the build a democracy in a day folks. How about a little US history. Anyone remember how long we were not under the Constitution but the articles of confederation? And how long it took to ratify that. Articles were drawn up in 1777 ratified in 1781 and the constitution was adopted in 1787. These things take time and alot of it. You can't just displace government and withdraw without stabilizing the Government or Quasi government. Unless You want an even worse terrorist government to oppress the people there.:shrug:


http://oldamericancentury.org/sailor.jpg

[TheCopperCowboy]

I gotta laugh at the build a democracy in a day folks. How about a little US history. Anyone remember how long we were not under the Constitution but the articles of confederation? And how long it took to ratify that. Articles were drawn up in 1777 ratified in 1781 and the constitution was adopted in 1787. These things take time and alot of it. You can't just displace government and withdraw without stabilizing the Government or Quasi government. Unless You want an even worse terrorist government to oppress the people there.:shrug:


There is absolutely NO comparison between the U.S. Revolution and this quagmire in Iraq. Nobody held our hand, had our back or trained colonial American soldiers while the British lined up to shoot us down. We took our hunting rifles and fought them "terrorist" style. The Iraqi government can't get their shite together, doesn't want to give us their oil, or share the oil with the different sects and can wait us out because they are not going nowhere. Iraq will align with their regional neighbors since they are of the same blood and religion. Whoever is buying into a peaceful Iraq is either Haliburton, one of their subs, or a damn fool. :mad:

Oh great, now FOX news is playing the fear card. :rolleyes: Played out and predictable. :flipoff2:

[Budman]

[/RIGHT]QUOTE=ZappBranigan;877727]You beat me to it....:D

Count me as another OIF and OEF veteran who's for finishing what we started.






http://oldamericancentury.org/sailor.jpg[/QUOTE]

There is absolutely NO comparison between the U.S. Revolution and this quagmire in Iraq. Nobody held our hand, had our back or trained colonial American soldiers while the British lined up to shoot us down. We took our hunting rifles and fought them "terrorist" style. The Iraqi government can't get their shite together, doesn't want to give us their oil, or share the oil with the different sects and can wait us out because they are not going nowhere. Iraq will align with their regional neighbors since they are of the same blood and religion. Whoever is buying into a peaceful Iraq is either Haliburton, one of their subs, or a damn fool. :mad:

Oh great, now FOX news is playing the fear card. :rolleyes: Played out and predictable. :flipoff2:

Heed my warning gents. This is an example of what I am talking about.

[TheCopperCowboy]

http://www.internetweekly.org/images/ann_coulter_school.jpg

[AMMOtj]

I'm glad we still have bases in Germany, Korea, etc. Gives me some fun places to go see and enjoy the world :D

[bsaunder]

There is absolutely NO comparison between the U.S. Revolution and this quagmire in Iraq. Nobody held our hand, had our back or trained colonial American soldiers while the British lined up to shoot us down. We took our hunting rifles and fought them "terrorist" style. The Iraqi government can't get their shite together, doesn't want to give us their oil, or share the oil with the different sects and can wait us out because they are not going nowhere. Iraq will align with their regional neighbors since they are of the same blood and religion. Whoever is buying into a peaceful Iraq is either Haliburton, one of their subs, or a damn fool. :mad:

Oh great, now FOX news is playing the fear card. :rolleyes: Played out and predictable. :flipoff2:

what planet are you from, or do you just have some really good drugs??

do you actually believe 100% of everything you wrote above, or are you just trying to uphold the persona you've built on here?

[Clint]

http://www.internetweekly.org/images/ann_coulter_school.jpg

Look everyone, mr unoriginal is back! Time for you to cut and paste some blog articles isnt it?

[TheCopperCowboy]

Look everyone, mr unoriginal is back! Time for you to cut and paste some blog articles isnt it?

No, I've been working on my spelling skills. Plus, it's more fun to have an original thought than marching lockstep with the few. :D

[Oscar]

So the Prussians or the French didn't help us during the revolution hmmm

[Budman]

So the Prussians or the French didn't help us during the revolution hmmm

not at all!!!

[TheCopperCowboy]

So the Prussians or the French didn't help us during the revolution hmmm

Yes, they did assist us, BUT, they did not occupy us. Big difference. :thumbsup:

[Oscar]

just repling to no training no backing didnt see anything about occupy. We had plenty of help while we fought and getting our government together.

[TwoDogs]

[/RIGHT]QUOTE=ZappBranigan;877727]You beat me to it....:D

Count me as another OIF and OEF veteran who's for finishing what we started.






http://oldamericancentury.org/sailor.jpg[/QUOTE]

Me too! I'm also one of those evil subcontractors. (security/mercenary)

[CLYDE]

Tonight Bush will announce that our military presence in Iraq is PERMANENT!
Considering that after 54 years we still have 33,000 troops in Korea are you still going to support Bush's vision for the future? Is their anything more we can do to galvanize the Muslim world into hating us as occupiers? It didn't work for the British, French, Germans, or Russians....Do you think its going to work for us?Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions?
I didnt hear him say anything of the sort. But even if he had, I would have no issue with that. We go where we are needed, and we do the jobs that the rest of the world doesnt have the nuts to tackle. Do you honestly believe the muslims hate us because we are there??? Cmon you arent that naive I hope, the Muslims hate us because we arent muslims, period. So got any solutions, or are you just spouting off that defeatist dem party rhetoric, with no answers like most are doing on the left side these days. Im a reasonable person, present to me an alternative, THAT WILL WORK, and I might even listen to it. Oh and guess what, I could give a dam about bush, and dont even like the man, or most of the decisions he has made in this term. Doesnt matter tho, whatever reason we went to Iraq, it needed to be done anyway, Im proud to be the parent of a US Marine that has served in the middle east 3 times in the last 5 years, Im proud of what he has done, and i am proud of all of our guys that have served over there, and done that dirty job, and helped kill those, who would happily kill you, or your family as they slept. I submit sir, that you have no clue about anything to do with Iraq, and should probably not voice such harsh, and illogical opinions without at least some idea of what its like there.

[Sound_Man]

:feedtroll:

[ScaldedDog]

Is their anything more we can do to galvanize the Muslim world into hating us as occupiers?

Ahhh, who were we occupying on September 11? Seems like they hated us pretty bad already. Besides, the "us" you're referring to is really anyone who supports Israel, and we abandon her at our peril.

Yes, Iraq is a mess. But whether we leave tomorrow or stay for hundreds of years, it's going to get *a lot* worse before it gets better. May as well finish what we started and perhaps buy a few years of something that sorta looks like peace.

Mark

[jtw2]

jebus, WTF are all these fawking trolls coming from?

we need a damn troll bug bomb.

[CLYDE]

jebus, WTF are all these fawking trolls coming from?

we need a damn troll bug bomb.
MoveOn.Org ???????

[TheCopperCowboy]

Ahhh, who were we occupying on September 11?

Saudi Arabia. :mad:

[jtw2]

Saudi Arabia. :mad:


It's like you live in an alternate universe and only visit here now and again and forget that you aren't really in your natural twisted alternate universe.

In short you're teh crazy.

[TheCopperCowboy]

Coming from a pug-person, I'll take that as a compliment. :D

[jtw2]

I think you'd take any attention as a compliment. that's part o teh crazy.

[starbreaker666]

hope I don't make anyone mad by saying.. I just don't care anymore.

[Dave McDonald]

I'm a kinda local expert on crazy. When you see a post that is so obviously contradictory to reality there's three options:
1. crazy,
2. misdirected
3. just plain rock bottom stupid.

Liberals ain't usually #1 - they don't have enough imagination for that.

Their posts tend to narrow down the options even more.

I got nuthin to say to the original topic, cuz then I'd have to put a bandaid on the hook wound in my cheek.

[Sound_Man]

hope I don't make anyone mad by saying.. I just don't care anymore.

I don't get mad over that type of attitude but I do get disappointed that the determination or resolve of some, possibly yourself is fading. Remember how you felt on 9/11? I was pissed off, I still am. I was pissed off before that event but for other reasons with the same groups of people.


Do you work with the guard that was killed yesterday?

[starbreaker666]

Yes, she was not killed and is doing well. that's all I can say at this time though. Bad scene.

[scottycards]

hope I don't make anyone mad by saying.. I just don't care anymore.

Maybe that feeling comes from a perception that we're not getting anywhere or making any progress. I know my lack of caring about this war, and my desire to see it end stems, in large part, to seeing the resources we're putting into it, with no significant effect.

Gas prices are high, and unstable, we shut down the airport or the local freeways if we see an unattended duffel bag or a neon sign, the post office shuts down if you ship flour, you have to take your shoes off at the airport, the list goes on. The war really hasn't changed much, at least for MY sense of security, since 9/11.

Yet we contine to do the same things, expecting a different result........in a few months.......always in just a few more short and expensive months.......

[OrangeCrush]

I say we give them our constitution it has worked well for 200 years and we arent using it anymore

[Budman]

Saudi Arabia. :mad:

We were not occupying SA. We were there at the invite of the Govt to keep a crazy man at bay, and keep him from taking over all the ME. How soon you forget.

Maybe that feeling comes from a perception that we're not getting anywhere or making any progress. I know my lack of caring about this war, and my desire to see it end stems, in large part, to seeing the resources we're putting into it, with no significant effect.

Gas prices are high, and unstable, we shut down the airport or the local freeways if we see an unattended duffel bag or a neon sign, the post office shuts down if you ship flour, you have to take your shoes off at the airport, the list goes on. The war really hasn't changed much, at least for MY sense of security, since 9/11.

Yet we contine to do the same things, expecting a different result........in a few months.......always in just a few more short and expensive months.......

You should visit Israel and spend about 2 weeks traveling around that country. If the Dems get a foot hold and allow Radical Islam to gain speed, we will only have three choices. 1. Convert to Radical Islam 2. Lock down our country like israel has 3. DIE...


The best option is to stop this before it happens. That is what we are doing. Are we doing everything perfect? Absolutely not... Are we making gains? IMO yes, slow, painful, expensive gains, but gains none the less.


For those who have no clue about what life is like over there, imagine gaurds with sub machine guns on every corner, in every door way, on every bus and train. Imagine constant random ID and Bag checks on the streets, in the stores etc.

How do you supose you liberals would react to that type of "infringement on your freedoms"?

[scottycards]

Bud-
I say this with respect, so please take it as such. Isreal is not a valid comparison. You're talking about friggin' neanderthals that live in dirt-floored huts who make bombs at home, for the most part. Yes, they can load an IED into their POS car and drive over to Isreal, but they ain't going to make it over here.

Simple and effective security measures, like tightening up our borders (I'm in favor of a wall) would be much more effective, IMO. 10 billion a month can buy a lot of domestic security. Why we're interested in securing the streets of a country halfway around the world, who doesn't (generally) really want our help is beyond me.

The soldiers in the field are even saying it- they've worn out their welcome there. We do not have the support of the Iraqi's, so it ain't gonna happen. You can lead a camel to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Budman]

Bud-
I say this with respect, so please take it as such. Isreal is not a valid comparison. You're talking about friggin' neanderthals that live in dirt-floored huts who make bombs at home, for the most part. Yes, they can load an IED into their POS car and drive over to Isreal, but they ain't going to make it over here.

Simple and effective security measures, like tightening up our borders (I'm in favor of a wall) would be much more effective, IMO. 10 billion a month can buy a lot of domestic security. Why we're interested in securing the streets of a country halfway around the world, who doesn't (generally) really want our help is beyond me.

The soldiers in the field are even saying it- they've worn out their welcome there. We do not have the support of the Iraqi's, so it ain't gonna happen. You can lead a camel to water, but you can't make him drink.


Scotty;

I take everything you say with respect... We (i hope) are far beyond taking what each other says personal. We just have differing opinions.

Israel while a much different situation currently than ours, could be a really good example of the way ahead. 5-10 years ago, we woudl have said that Europe could never be in the shape it is in WRT Radical islam, however, thier attitude of tolerance and forgiveness, and the live and let live way of life have caused some of the greatest countries in Europe to be over run with Radical islam. Canada is not far behind Europe, and the US is following right along.

Securing our borders is something that baffles me. I see a big percentage of the population being all for it, yet the politicians just won't make it happen. We can and have debated this issue into the ground.

As for the Iraqi's not wanting us there... I beleive in my heart of hearts that you are only getting (or listening to) input from a small and disgruntled portion on the service members over there. I myself have not been there since the initial action in 2003, but I am sitting next to a soldier who was just there with 10th SF, and he paints a very different picture that what you are getting. I also think that things have changed dramatically since we pulled our heads our of our butts, and adjusted our tactics.

[scottycards]

All going points. Although I see no negative effects with Islam in Europe, there may be some, or even a lot. I'm not against that religion, because the killers aren't religious- they are killers working under the guise of religion. It's a fine distinction, but I think it's one worth keeping in mind. We could (and I often do, in jest) categorize Christians much the same with, with the abortion clinic bombers, molesters, etc. Those people aren't Christians, they are freaks/criminals masquerading as Christians.

The border thing baffles me as well. It stirs the conspiracy theorist in me, making me think that our politicians have a secret agenda, like payoffs, and kickbacks, but I don't know. Something stinks there.

I just can't figure out why, if the Iraqi's want us there, they won't support us. They won't rat out their neighbors, relatives, etc. We just get no support. These dudes don't operate in a vacuum. Terrorists eat, they socialize, they go to the market to buy food once in a while (and not bomb it), so SOMEONE knows them. Secrets like that just can't be kept to the degree they are without someone knowing and not telling.

We just aren't getting "buy in" from the masses over there. Why, I don't know. Back to the camel and water.

I wish we'd pull back, let the situation get worse, and when we get the support of others, go back in. I know it's the tough way to learn the lesson, and people may die, but what we're doing ain't working, and it's sucking this country dry. By allowing our country to literally crumble (from a financial standpoint), they are winning. I don't want to hear about our vets losing benefits, or the VA hospitals being in a shambles. Our guys deserve better. Our children deserve more $$$ for education. But we're spending the dough on friggin' psycho towelheads. Pardon my racism in that regard, but I'm fed up.

[Sound_Man]

.....Yes, they can load an IED into their POS car and drive over to Isreal, but they ain't going to make it over here......

With all the respect in the world do you remember this guy?

http://www.greatdreams.com/mcveigh.jpg

That did this....

http://planetquo.net/Paranoid/OKC%20Bombing.jpg


Right here in the good old USA..

[scottycards]

With all the respect in the world do you remember this guy?

http://www.greatdreams.com/mcveigh.jpg

That did this....

http://planetquo.net/Paranoid/OKC%20Bombing.jpg


Right here in the good old USA..

Yes, IIRC we had his sorry ass ratted out and captured in something like 48 hours, with the support of the American people. A co-worker in NY identified Mc Veigh as "John Doe #1" and an arrest warrant was issued, and he was caught after being pulled over for speeding.

I remember well. It's all about getting support, and we have none. The public ratted McVeigh out instantaneously. The Iraqi's are not doing that. They are helping the terrorists, and sheltering them in their homes.

SoundMan- if someone wants to blow up a building, you're never going to be completely able to stop it. You and I both know that. If they want to shoot up a mall, it's gonna happen. You or I could go do it today.

[Budman]

All going points. Although I see no negative effects with Islam in Europe, there may be some, or even a lot. I'm not against that religion, because the killers aren't religious- they are killers working under the guise of religion. It's a fine distinction, but I think it's one worth keeping in mind. We could (and I often do, in jest) categorize Christians much the same with, with the abortion clinic bombers, molesters, etc. Those people aren't Christians, they are freaks/criminals masquerading as Christians.

The problem for europe

The border thing baffles me as well. It stirs the conspiracy theorist in me, making me think that our politicians have a secret agenda, like payoffs, and kickbacks, but I don't know. Something stinks there.

I just can't figure out why, if the Iraqi's want us there, they won't support us. They won't rat out their neighbors, relatives, etc. We just get no support. These dudes don't operate in a vacuum. Terrorists eat, they socialize, they go to the market to buy food once in a while (and not bomb it), so SOMEONE knows them. Secrets like that just can't be kept to the degree they are without someone knowing and not telling.

We just aren't getting "buy in" from the masses over there. Why, I don't know. Back to the camel and water.

I wish we'd pull back, let the situation get worse, and when we get the support of others, go back in. I know it's the tough way to learn the lesson, and people may die, but what we're doing ain't working, and it's sucking this country dry. By allowing our country to literally crumble (from a financial standpoint), they are winning. I don't want to hear about our vets losing benefits, or the VA hospitals being in a shambles. Our guys deserve better. Our children deserve more $$$ for education. But we're spending the dough on friggin' psycho towelheads. Pardon my racism in that regard, but I'm fed up.

Interestingly, the more you and I debate, the closer our points of views seem to get.

[scottycards]

But does anyone remember when FOX 103.5, during the McVeigh trial in Denver, did a Timothy Mc Veigh look-alike contest?

They took the winner- he was pretty much a dead-ringer for Mc Veigh, dressed him in an orange jumpsuit, and let him get out of a van and walk around the Federal building.

It was live on the air, I was listening, thinking to myself, "what could possibly go wrong with this", when the dude says via his hidden mic in the jumpsuit, "the police are looking at me, here they come (garbled rumbles)" and the air went dead.

It didn't go over quite as funny as they had anticipated. Good lord, what was the thought process behind that stunt.......

[Sound_Man]

Yes, IIRC we had his sorry ass ratted out and captured in something like 48 hours, with the support of the American people. A co-worker in NY identified Mc Veigh as "John Doe #1" and an arrest warrant was issued, and he was caught after being pulled over for speeding.

I remember well. It's all about getting support, and we have none. The public ratted McVeigh out instantaneously. The Iraqi's are not doing that. They are helping the terrorists, and sheltering them in their homes.

SoundMan- if someone wants to blow up a building, you're never going to be completely able to stop it. You and I both know that. If they want to shoot up a mall, it's gonna happen. You or I could go do it today.

I agree that he was ratted out and rather quickly by the people around him. The same is true in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would really like to hear or read about your sources that say otherwise. I talk to the guys that are on the ground there daily and they tell a much different story.

The Insurgents that are in Iraqi homes are there by force and are not wanted by the Iraqi people. They fear for their lives and the lives of their families. None of this is easy and the press which is the main source of information for the American people about the situation there chooses to report things that make everything we are doing look bad. That is their choice and we have a choice to believe them or not. We are doing good things there and we are making progress.

[Gags]

Interestingly, the more you and I debate, the closer our points of views seem to get.

No kidding.


I still very much care about Iraq and the ME. But as my wife refers to me, I'm an -ist...Activist without the active part.

I care because of our historical legacy, how policy effects the world, how so seemingly violent the World is, how radicalism seems to be everywhere, how our soldiers are dying supporting a flawed policy.

This situation of this war is stems from policy error. Our gov knew what was going to happen they just didn't make it public.

We kicked the crap out of Iraq now it's chaos and civil war...Time to go and like Scottycards said and I've said before; leave, let them fight it out then when all sides are weak go back.

[scottycards]

Sorry, I disagree. We are not making any measurable progress. 3 of 18 benchmarks is not progress. It's nearly complete failure.

I really want us to be winning, but the scoreboard doesn't lie.

We are getting our asses kicked- maybe not on a military front, but they're winning in other ways-they are running our economy into the ground. Look at what the GAO is saying.

I'm almost sensing some feel-good stuff from you regarding what the troops are saying- those are just subjective impressions- isn't that one of my liberal tactics? J/K ;) :thumbsup:

[Gags]

Sorry, I disagree. We are not making any measurable progress. 3 of 18 benchmarks is not progress. It's nearly complete failure.

I really want us to be winning, but the scoreboard doesn't lie.

We are getting our asses kicked- maybe not on a military front, but they're winning in other ways-they are running our economy into the ground. Look at what the GAO is saying.

I'm almost sensing some feel-good stuff from you regarding what the troops are saying- those are just subjective impressions- isn't that one of my liberal tactics? J/K ;) :thumbsup:

I used "kicked" in the past tense. Destroying a goverment and killing or displacing 4 million people vs. our casualties is an ass beating. Winning is a matter of perspective. Now to continue in folly is just plain ridiculous.

[Sound_Man]

Sorry, I disagree. We are not making any measurable progress. 3 of 18 benchmarks is not progress. It's nearly complete failure.

I really want us to be winning, but the scoreboard doesn't lie.

We are getting our asses kicked- maybe not on a military front, but they're winning in other ways-they are running our economy into the ground. Look at what the GAO is saying.

I'm almost sensing some feel-good stuff from you regarding what the troops are saying- those are just subjective impressions- isn't that one of my liberal tactics? J/K ;) :thumbsup:

Hang on a min now... Those measures are measures of the Iraqi government and Iraqi military not measures of the US presence performance there. It took the US 11 years to come up with a government concept and it took years beyond that for us to enforce it.

There is no "feel-good" stuff that I have been getting from the guys I deal with. It is day to day life stuff that most of the people they are around now can do.

[Trango]

Sorry, checking in late to the thread. Any progress on finding those WMD's, the ones we invaded for? Just checking.

[scottycards]

I used "kicked" in the past tense. Destroying a goverment and killing or displacing 4 million people vs. our casualties is an ass beating. Winning is a matter of perspective. Now to continue in folly is just plain ridiculous.

Sorry, I was responding to SoundMan. We did kick their arses good. We just have overstayed our welcome. This mission was accomplished a long time ago, WRT ousting Saddam and making sure there were no WMD's.

I agree- we're "continuing in folly"- well stated.

[scottycards]

Hang on a min now... Those measures are measures of the Iraqi government and Iraqi military not measures of the US presence performance there. It took the US 11 years to come up with a government concept and it took years beyond that for us to enforce it.

There is no "feel-good" stuff that I have been getting from the guys I deal with. It is day to day life stuff that most of the people they are around now can do.

You're dancing with semantics. The impression I'm getting is that you're saying the benchmarks are a measure if Iraqi gov't performance, yet you're somehow disconnecting that from the US presence?

Why have benchmarks then, if they're not a measure of the results of the US presence?

Sorry, I don't buy that. We're not getting a damn thing done today for 333 million dollars that we'll burn today alone. That's $333,000,000 just today. A very poor investment. Very poor.

[Gags]

Sorry, checking in late to the thread. Any progress on finding those WMD's, the ones we invaded for? Just checking.

Dude, this comment would normally really make me laugh but for some reason...

[Sound_Man]

If we provide freedom for 1 Iraqi citizen and that instills some sense of democracy that they are willing to promote and see through and seed into their lives I think it is worth every penny.

Those benchmarks are for the Iraqi government and military. I am not disconnecting them but they are not a way to measure what the US presence is doing. It may take another 20 years for the Iraqi's to be able to be self sufficient or 50+ like South Korea.

I believe that those benchmarks were put in place as a way to leverage against our administration. To pull us out before we get the job done. Take a look back in this thread at the list of countries we are in all over the globe. Then consider the country that sits between Iraq and Afghanistan. We will not be leaving that area of the world anytime soon. Honestly I am glad we are there fighting them there instead of here.

[Gags]

Anyone read Robert Draper's book "Uncovered: Dead Certain." John Stewart interviewed Draper saying this was the most fair nonargumentative assessment of W.

Gonna pick it up today. Yes, I read both sides but just really want unbiased truth sometimes...

[Budman]

All going points. Although I see no negative effects with Islam in Europe, there may be some, or even a lot. I'm not against that religion, because the killers aren't religious- they are killers working under the guise of religion. It's a fine distinction, but I think it's one worth keeping in mind. We could (and I often do, in jest) categorize Christians much the same with, with the abortion clinic bombers, molesters, etc. Those people aren't Christians, they are freaks/criminals masquerading as Christians.

The problem in Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter) is Radical Islam. The problem here is that Radical Islam uses Moderate Islam as a cover. Moderate Islam manages to allow this both knowingly and unknowingly. They hamper LE and Intel operations by having a fit any time they feel that they might be slighted, making operations against Terrorism very difficult.
We have been very lucky in Europe and the US in thwarting operations. However, so far we have only drawn rookies as operators so far. One day the pros are going to plan and execute an attack and we are not going to know what is going on until things start to blow up. (see Spain and England for what happens when Pros plan and execute an op.) To date all the guys we have caught have been the result of a mistake on the part to the Bad Guys (BGs), and great luck on our part.

The border thing baffles me as well. It stirs the conspiracy theorist in me, making me think that our politicians have a secret agenda, like payoffs, and kickbacks, but I don't know. Something stinks there.

No argument from me here.

I just can't figure out why, if the Iraqi's want us there, they won't support us. They won't rat out their neighbors, relatives, etc. We just get no support. These dudes don't operate in a vacuum. Terrorists eat, they socialize, they go to the market to buy food once in a while (and not bomb it), so SOMEONE knows them. Secrets like that just can't be kept to the degree they are without someone knowing and not telling.

I have broken this down before, but I will try it again. Our first strategy over in Iraq (which we held onto much to long) was to build up the national government and then work down from there. The problem with this is that ?Joe Iraqi? could give two farts about what is going on at a national level. These are tribal people (think Native Americans in the early days). The National government does nothing to keep his family safe, or put food on his table. In addition to our top down strategy, tactically we would move into a town, kick out the BGs, and move on, or back to our bases. The bad guys would move right back in. Now here is ?Joe?s? problem with that. The soldiers are doing good things for me and my village, but they also will not hurt me if I make them mad. The BGs on the other hand are making life rough for me, and if I make them mad, they will rape/kill my wife and daughters and kill my sons. Therefore I am going to put my head down and get along. I have been doing it for years and years, and it has kept me alive.

Fast forward a few years to today. We are moving into a town, killing or running off the BGs, and then setting into work. We set up a LOCAL govt, LOCAL law enforcement, fix the water and power, get the schools up and running, and stay around to keep the BGs out until the LOCAL government can take over. As for local GOVt, who do is involved here? People who want to better their communities not fill their own pockets. This is a long, slow, and expensive prospect, but it is working and should continue to work if we stay at it. It will get easier as we go along. One day we will manage to push the BGs out into the open desert and kill them with extreme prejudice. Then the Iraqi?s can build their own government from the bottom up.

We just aren't getting "buy in" from the masses over there. Why, I don't know. Back to the camel and water.

No we are not, and we were never going to with our old strategy, but I think it will get much better much faster.

I wish we'd pull back, let the situation get worse, and when we get the support of others, go back in. I know it's the tough way to learn the lesson, and people may die, but what we're doing ain't working, and it's sucking this country dry.

The problem I see here is that we would lose any ground we have gained and have to take it back with American blood. I would rather hold it.

By allowing our country to literally crumble (from a financial standpoint), they are winning.

I don?t think we are crumbling, it is not good, but we will not fall because of this.

I don't want to hear about our vets losing benefits, or the VA hospitals being in a shambles. Our guys deserve better. Our children deserve more $$$ for education. But we're spending the dough on friggin' psycho towelheads. Pardon my racism in that regard, but I'm fed up.

You know where I stand on VA benefits etc, however, there are other ways to take care of our folks. There are other ways to pay for the ops in IZ as well (or at least off set the costs). I wish we would explore them, but then the Anti?s would accuse us of being oil mongers again.


Let me do this for the third time.

[scottycards]

If we provide freedom for 1 Iraqi citizen and that instills some sense of democracy that they are willing to promote and see through and seed into their lives I think it is worth every penny.

Those benchmarks are for the Iraqi government and military. I am not disconnecting them but they are not a way to measure what the US presence is doing. It may take another 20 years for the Iraqi's to be able to be self sufficient or 50+ like South Korea.

I believe that those benchmarks were put in place as a way to leverage against our administration. To pull us out before we get the job done. Take a look back in this thread at the list of countries we are in all over the globe. Then consider the country that sits between Iraq and Afghanistan. We will not be leaving that area of the world anytime soon. Honestly I am glad we are there fighting them there instead of here.

Wow. Willing to sacrifice the quality of the education for US children, benefits to our vets, qualtiy of healthcare at VA facilities, all to free one Iraqi? Not me. I wouldn't spend a dime on an Iraqi if it's at the expense of an American. Screw that.

There instead of here? See previous post- great soundbyte, but very thin logic when it comes to reality. We could tighten up our domestic security and achieve much greater results than being over there, in terms of our personal safety on a daily basis.

[ZappBranigan]

I just can't figure out why, if the Iraqi's want us there, they won't support us. They won't rat out their neighbors, relatives, etc. We just get no support. These dudes don't operate in a vacuum. Terrorists eat, they socialize, they go to the market to buy food once in a while (and not bomb it), so SOMEONE knows them. Secrets like that just can't be kept to the degree they are without someone knowing and not telling.


It's because they want to be sure we'll be there to back them up. That's the problem. It's just like with gangs. Do you think people who live in gang infested neighborhoods actually like the gangsters? Don't you think they'd like to help the police get rid of the gangsters? Of course they would.

But the gangsters tell them: We'll be here after the police are gone. After the police stop caring about this neighborhood and move on to something else, we'll still be here. And we have long memories.

Well, the terrorists in Iraq are basically saying the same thing. They pull out the newspapers and look at the TV reports and they tell the people, "See? The Americans are going to abandon you, just like they abandoned the South Vietnamese. So if you want to be on the winning side, you'd best just shut up and let us do what we want." Using terror to acheive their political goals - that's pretty much the definition of "terrorism" right there. And that's why one of the tactics has been to move small American and Iraqi units into some of these towns and outlying provinces to let them know that we are throwing our lot in with them.

The real action in Iraq is not car bombs or firefights. Its these little, one-on-one trust building exercises, and it takes a long time. It doesn't make the news, but it's important.

To get back to the larger question, remember that the reason we are there now is because we never finished the job we started in 1991. If we leave before it's done, we'll have to come back again, sure as shit, and it's going to be a whole lot worse. The option of "not fighting" is simply off the table. We're going to fight. The only question is, do we fight now, at the time and place of our choosing, or do we fight later, at the time and place of our enemy's choosing? Because it's going to be one or the other.

[scottycards]

You make great points, Bud. IDK why we don't just sieze the oil until the debt is paid.

Hey guys, if you want the BG's out, we'll do it for you. But you gotta pay. If not, we're outta here. Have fun being raped and tortured- call us when you're willing to cough up some dough for your security, like the Americans do when they pay taxes each year...........

[Budman]

You make great points, Bud. IDK why we don't just sieze the oil until the debt is paid.

Hey guys, if you want the BG's out, we'll do it for you. But you gotta pay. If not, we're outta here. Have fun being raped and tortured- call us when you're willing to cough up some dough for your security, like the Americans do when they pay taxes each year...........

But then it would in fact be a war for oil...

[scottycards]

But then it would in fact be a war for oil...

Didn't know it wasn't. :D Oh, I guess you mean it would make it more blatantly obvious than it already is. J/K.

[Waifer2112]

They pull out the newspapers and look at the TV reports and they tell the people, "See? The Americans are going to abandon you, just like they abandoned the South Vietnamese. .

I just had to quote that one! :spit:

How does one get to be a newspaper deliverer for the Rocky Mountain News in Baghdad? How do you suppose the Iraqi's like Bill O'Reilly?

:flipoff2:

[Yota]

Every country that you listed had a functional government. That does not exist in Iraq. I've been on our bases in most of the countires you mentioned and felt that the local population supported or at least tolerated our presence. What percentage of the Iraqi population want us to stay? If the job is never finished what then?

Of course they do NOW! You want to talk about poll numbers? How about telling me what percentage of the Iraqi population voted for Saddam Hussein in the last election? The Iraqi people, if polled in Jan 2003, would have said 100% that they didn't want us there. But they sure as hell cheered us when we arrived didn't they?

Many of the countries in which we have bases most definitely did not have functioning governments when we first arrived - at least no more functional than the one we knocked off in Iraq.

Germany
Japan (they still had the emperor)
Italy
Phillipines
Guam

And the Iraqi population is not any more hostile to us than elements of, say, the German population were after WW2. Whatever government you might claim those countries had upon our arrival was soon supplanted with a constitutional, democratic republican one.

Iraq is, of course, a unique challenge and no one can say it's an exact parallel to anything else - that would be ignorant. But if you're suggesting that our continued presence in Iraq is a bad thing for Iraq, I gave you at least a half-dozen examples of why it is not bad at all.

We just have to figure out the problems and solve them.

[Yota]

Whoever is buying into a peaceful Iraq is either Haliburton, one of their subs, or a damn fool. :mad:


That's a pretty sweeping statement even for you. Too bad for you that history shows that we not only CAN do this but that we HAVE DONE IT many many times.

[Yota]

No, I've been working on my spelling skills. Plus, it's more fun to have an original thought than marching lockstep with the few. :D

Dude you're in more lockstep than anyone here.

And your spelling of Halliburton was still off. Figured you'd be able to get that correct with all the left-wing rants about them you must be reading. :flipoff2:

[Yota]

Saudi Arabia. :mad:

I call bullshit.

[Sound_Man]

Wow. Willing to sacrifice the quality of the education for US children, benefits to our vets, qualtiy of healthcare at VA facilities, all to free one Iraqi? Not me. I wouldn't spend a dime on an Iraqi if it's at the expense of an American. Screw that.

There instead of here? See previous post- great soundbyte, but very thin logic when it comes to reality. We could tighten up our domestic security and achieve much greater results than being over there, in terms of our personal safety on a daily basis.

Who said anything about sacrificing any of those things you mentioned? My VA benefits saw a cost of living increase around the 1st of the year as well as my federal general pay schedule. Show me where the budget for education in this country has been cut due to the war we are in.

[scottycards]

Who said anything about sacrificing any of those things you mentioned? My VA benefits saw a cost of living increase around the 1st of the year as well as my federal general pay schedule. Show me where the budget for education in this country has been cut due to the war we are in.

That 10 bil a month is coming from somewhere, dude. And it ain't the defense budget, believe me.

The other thread is more fun.

Enjoy!

[Yota]

That 10 bil a month is coming from somewhere, dude. And it ain't the defense budget, believe me.

The other thread is more fun.

Enjoy!

It's called deficit spending. We could have afforded the war without deficit spending if congress and the president had had the courage to cut the budget AND not to pander to special interests like AARP in passing Medicare part D (prescriptions).

But the eductation budget has increased every year since god was a kid. Education is juuuust fine.

Still and all, I'd cut the domestic non-defense budget waaay before I'd cut funds for an ongoing WAR. Fact is, defense is the A#1 priority job of the federal government.

[scottycards]

It's called deficit spending.

Translation: spending money we don't have?

Serious question. Education is not fine, IMO. Teachers are underpaid, schools are underfunded, but that's just my opinion. I'd prefer we invest in our children, rather than Saddam's.

[ZappBranigan]

Translation: spending money we don't have?

Serious question. Education is not fine, IMO. Teachers are underpaid, schools are underfunded, but that's just my opinion. I'd prefer we invest in our children, rather than Saddam's.

WTF does that have to do with the Federal government? Schools and teachers are funded by states and school districts, funded by taxes (primarily property taxes.) Cutting the defense budget would not net one single penny for schools.

As for teachers - don't even get me started. The myth that teachers are underpaid is total BS. Teachers don't get drafted, every one of them chose that profession. If they think they're underpaid they should either ask for a pay raise or go into a different line of work.

[Trango]

I remember seeing this in the news:

http://cbs4denver.com/politics/local_story_098173626.html

And, I know that *my* particular customers are having major budget cuts due to the war.

[Yota]

Translation: spending money we don't have?

Serious question. Education is not fine, IMO. Teachers are underpaid, schools are underfunded, but that's just my opinion. I'd prefer we invest in our children, rather than Saddam's.

Yeah. Spending money we don't have yet. It's a pretty common thing in the world and it's not a big horrible thing if managed responsibly.

We invest billions at the federal level in our kids and teachers and billions more at the state and local levels. If being a teacher is really so hard and awful and they are so underpaid for their 9 mos of work a year, why are there so many people studying to become teachers in colleges and universities across America?

It's a serious question. There is something attractive about that career choice and don't hand me the psychobabble about shaping young minds. That might be true for a few people for awhile, but it won't sustain a mistreated person over the course of a career. And truly if they wanted their pay to go up they would be for some form of privatized education. No one ever got rich by being a government employee.

We invest in a lot of things at the federal level. Education is undoubtedly one of them. But believe it or not security is another.

[Yota]

I remember seeing this in the news:

http://cbs4denver.com/politics/local_story_098173626.html

And, I know that *my* particular customers are having major budget cuts due to the war.

Counterpoint (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Education/EdNotes49.cfm). Spending on K-12 has increased by 40% over the last 6 years during the Republican controlled congress/presidency.

If kids aren't learning it is NOT due to a lack of dollars spent on education.

Hell, kids got better educations back in the days of the "little red schoolhouse."

It's not the money, it's the motivation.

[scottycards]

It truly amazes me that someone can think we're not digging an amazingly large hole with this war that will take decades to recover from. Thinking that the spent money doesn't affect every aspect of this economy also amazes me.

I'm also shocked that people don't think teachers should make more money.

More power to you! I differ in my opinions, however.

[Budman]

It truly amazes me that someone can think we're not digging an amazingly large hole with this war that will take decades to recover from. Thinking that the spent money doesn't affect every aspect of this economy also amazes me.

I'm also shocked that people don't think teachers should make more money.

More power to you! I differ in my opinions, however.

Since we have hijacked this a little let me throw something into the mix here on teachers being overpaid.


Anyone know what a first year teacher makes? Someone look it up or tell me, then look at this chart (http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/2006militarypaytables/2007MilPaycharts-cc.pdf). Pay particular attention to what an E-1 w/<2 years makes. A teacher works 9 months out of the year in a classroom full of children. They work an 8 hour day +/-, and as a general rule no one shoots at them.


Now lets take an E-1 in the military. On duty 24/7/365. good chance that someone is going to shoot at them in the first year or two of service. Good chance that they are going to have to kill someone/have someone die in thier arms (both worse than being shot at in my book).

Now tell me that teachers are over paid.

OBTW: After they get tenor (sp) they really can't be fired... Where do I sign up for that schedule/program....

[Budman]

It truly amazes me that someone can think we're not digging an amazingly large hole with this war that will take decades to recover from. Thinking that the spent money doesn't affect every aspect of this economy also amazes me.

I'm also shocked that people don't think teachers should make more money.

More power to you! I differ in my opinions, however.


As for the amazingly large hole... What was the economy like from 1948-1951... from 1954-1965??? We dug a HUGE hole during WWII, and revovered from it, then we continued to dig during Korea, and even managed to revover from that.

I have spent years in the cattle market... the effects of the war on the economyh don't scare me in the least. The cattle market is on a 20 year cycle, and is uneffected by outside events, I believe our economy is on a similar cycle...But you don't want me to bore you with the details of the cattle market...

[Budman]

Now back to the fun thread...

[Yota]

It truly amazes me that someone can think we're not digging an amazingly large hole with this war that will take decades to recover from. Thinking that the spent money doesn't affect every aspect of this economy also amazes me.

I'm also shocked that people don't think teachers should make more money.

More power to you! I differ in my opinions, however.

I can't believe people can't see the enormous ripple effect that Iraq is going to have on the region whether we win or lose. Iraq IS going to affect the region. Iran, Syria and all the other good and bad actors in the region will be affected by our success or failure. That is undeniable.

What kind of ripple are we going to make; one that benefits us or harms us in the long run? And truly we must look beyond the end of Bush's presidency on this. Bush has always said that the GWOT would extend beyond his presidency and I think it should and will. If Democrats gain power and indeed treat the GWOT as a "bumper sticker slogan," as Edwards has suggested, they will do so at everyone's peril, including their own political one.

[scottycards]

All good. If I'm reading correctly, you get to get shot at and make 1300 per month. Good God. That's pretty rough. But since there's not a draft, someone could turn it back on anyone who complains and say "they signed up for it", which I don't agree with, but it could be said. Same for teachers.

I guess some people work for reasons other than money- never made any sense to me..........if it weren't for money, I'd definitely not work- I'd sit by the pool and swill beer all day.

Neither profession is for me- even at 9 mos/yr, I'll stick to what I'm doing. I couldn't afford food, much less my internal combustion habit on either of those salaries.

The other thread is more fun.

Have a good weekend, dude. Thanks for keeping my pansy-ass safe.

[Budman]

All good. If I'm reading correctly, you get to get shot at and make 1300 per month. Good God. That's pretty rough. But since there's not a draft, someone could turn it back on anyone who complains and say "they signed up for it", which I don't agree with, but it could be said. Same for teachers.

I guess some people work for reasons other than money- never made any sense to me..........if it weren't for money, I'd definitely not work- I'd sit by the pool and swill beer all day.

Neither profession is for me- even at 9 mos/yr, I'll stick to what I'm doing. I couldn't afford food, much less my internal combustion habit on either of those salaries.

The other thread is more fun.

Have a good weekend, dude. Thanks for keeping my pansy-ass safe.

The other thread is much more fun. Have a good one.

[Yota]

They get hazardous duty pay and deployment pay tacked on tho, right?

I sure hope so.

[Budman]

Well hazzard fire pay anyway...