$50 Billion set for US infrastucture updates

[MountainJeep]

or not....

WASHINGTON - President Bush (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/George+W.+Bush?tid=informline) plans to ask Congress next month for up to $50 billion in additional funding for the war in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Iraq?tid=informline), a White House (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/The+White+House?tid=informline) official said yesterday

I mean really.....how much more money are we going to flush down that toliet?

We need to fix things here at home!

[Frank Z]

Agreed, let's start with slashing social programs that do not benifit everyone.

Can I get an AMEN!?!

[Conrad]

:thumbsup: Agreed, let's start with slashing social programs that do not benifit everyone.

Can I get an AMEN!?!

[Trango]

Agreed, let's start with slashing social programs that do not benifit everyone.


I'm curious to hear what you mean - would you be willing to cite current numbers for these programs? Because, in the FY07 federal budget, the admin already traded so many social programs for Iraq spending. 35bn was taken from medicare alone in this budget, a program which I'd hardly say was bloated or mismanaged in the first place.

I chafe at these suggestions that social programs are evil and that money spent three oceans away shouldn't be divested any slower than light speed.

[Trango]

You guys do realize that this amounts to around, back of the envelope, $300 per wage earner that will be added to your share of the national debt, right? Since there is no realistic plan to pay this back within the next 10 years, lets see.... that means that at roughly 4.5% compound interest, this would be $500 you'll be paying back, plus, of course, the overhead for borrowing these funds, which adds a couple hundred bucks to the whole equation.

So, let's say that everyone who thinks this is a good idea, please put up your hand and say, please assign me a $700 debt in 10 years.

But hey, don't mind the finance guy (Degree+Work+Upbringing) over here, I'm just saying that you should be careful about (and scrutinize) what you're really asking for.

[Trango]

BTW, I have little emotional investment in Iraq... I just really don't like spending - inasmuch as such a request is extraordinary, so too should the goals be... extraordinary. I'm very conservative with regards to spending, unlike so many budgetary liberals these days, who can't wait to run up an unrealistic deficit in support of their untenable ideals.

[scottycards]

Thank you for your tempered insight, Trango.

I am not raising my hand, btw.

[Frank Z]

I chafe at these suggestions that social programs are evil and that money spent three oceans away shouldn't be divested any slower than light speed.I get a severe rash when I read comments like this...


I mean really.....how much more money are we going to flush down that toliet? What makes more sense? Fighting terrorism abroad or pumping money into programs like the National Endowment for the Arts? Yeah that really benefits all of us.

It's not just the social programs, it's Pork Barrel politics (on both sides of the aisle) that needs to be stopped.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2930366
http://www.helium.com/tm/94264/barrel-negative-describing-government

The conflict in Iraq isn't going to just go away if we pull out now. Common sense dictates that that region will plummet even further into chaos. Anyone catch the comments from Iran's President regarding Irans plan to fill the void when the U.S. pulls out? Now there's a peace loving leader!:rolleyes:

We are far better off fighting them there than burying our own here.

[Frank Z]

What price are you willing to pay for safety, security, and freedom?

[sweater]

What price are you willing to pay for safety, security, and freedom?

Hooray for the jingoistic, emotionally-laden catch phrase of the thread!

For the record: I'm not willing to pay an extra $700 over the next 10 years on top of the already staggeringly-large amounts of fiscal incompetence being displayed overseas (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/world/middleeast/28military.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) in order to pay for my "safety, security, and freedom."

All of the arguments about this being a war on terrorism have fallen flat. Completely flat. Our own VP warned that invading Iraq would be a "quagmire". People that want to stay in Iraq are rapidly becoming the minority with every passing day and with every passing soldier's death.

- mike

[Trango]

I won't engage in debate of hindsight justifications for a conflict that didn't satisfy any of it stated objectives (as outlined in the official casus belli), but I will say this:

Pork Barrel politics (on both sides of the aisle) that needs to be stopped.

Now you're talking my language. :)

[Frank Z]

It's an honest question. Dollar figures are thrown out and comments are made about not being willing to pay X amount. You can try to spin it anyway you like, but the question still stands.

Everyone wants the benefits, but no one is willing to pay the price. Perfect Liberal mentality.

[sweater]

Everyone wants the benefits, but no one is willing to pay the price. Perfect Liberal mentality.
Used to be, conservatives were the ones keeping spending in check. So, falling back on stereotypes of behaviors based on political affiliation seems a little simplistic.

- mike

[Frank Z]

It is that simple.

[scottycards]

I like the National Endowment for the Arts.

I'm sure all of us here know that the National Endowment for the Arts is behind Operation Homecoming, right?

Info:
On September 12, 2006, the much-anticipated literary anthology Operation Homecoming: Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Home Front in the Words of U.S. Troops and Their Families, was published by Random House. Drawn from the acclaimed National Endowment for the Arts program and edited by the best-selling author Andrew Carroll, the anthology includes nearly 100personal letters, private journals, poems, stories, and memoirs of service and sacrifice on the front lines and at home.

In 2004, the NEA created Operation Homecoming to help U.S. troops and their families write about their wartime experiences. Through this program, some of America's most distinguished writers conducted workshops at military installations and contributed to educational resources to help the troops and their families share their stories. In addition to those works published in the anthology, all of the writing submitted by the troops will be preserved in an open, national government archive.

More:
http://www.nea.gov/national/homecoming/index.html

[OrangeCrush]

The Homecoming book is just one of the many things the NEA brings our society how can you be against this perfectly fine waste of money?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

[Jake_Blues]

President George W. Bush is requesting an $18 million budget increase for the National Endowment for the Arts...

The President's request would raise the Arts Endowment's budget by $18 million from $121 million to $139.4 million, the largest increase since 1984.


FYI, the entire National Endowment for the Arts budget is less than the cost of one day of the Iraq war, so I'm not too worried about that particular program running us into the ground.

-E

[Budman]

Agreed, let's start with slashing social programs that do not benifit everyone.

Can I get an AMEN!?!

Amen!!!

[Trango]

It's an honest question.

Your question is too open and far too relative to be a good starter for real discussion.

Any number of liberal interpretations of those words turns such a discussion into a semantics debate - nobody wants that.

[BHT]

http://www.rollingstone.com/

Look at the Great Iraq Swindle under National Events. It's all about the money.

[Steve]

This topic? Again?

I'll pass, thanks.

:deadhorse:

[Budman]

[QUOTE=Trango;864538]
So, let's say that everyone who thinks this is a good idea, please put up your hand and say, please assign me a $700 debt in 10 years.
QUOTE]

Let's see, according to my basic math skills, that comes out to less than 20 cents per day. Not bad if you ask me.

[Yota]

Hooray for the jingoistic, emotionally-laden catch phrase of the thread!

- mike

You throw out that little canard so often in Iraq-related threads but you fail to back up how it's just jingoistic, Mike.

What do you think would happen to national security if we bailed from Iraq tomorrow as you have championed in other threads?

Have you listened to almost literally all of the experts and pundits alike who've said that would be a less-than-stellar idea? Or are you still just stuck on the "we shouldn't have gone in there to begin with" tip or the "it's their problem" tip?

I'm just curious how you back up calling what Frank said purely emotional and "jingoistic" in light of what dang near everyone is saying.

[Jake_Blues]

You throw out that little canard so often in Iraq-related threads but you fail to back up how it's just jingoistic, Mike.

What do you think would happen to national security if we bailed from Iraq tomorrow as you have championed in other threads?

Have you listened to almost literally all of the experts and pundits alike who've said that would be a less-than-stellar idea? Or are you still just stuck on the "we shouldn't have gone in there to begin with" tip or the "it's their problem" tip?

I'm just curious how you back up calling what Frank said purely emotional and "jingoistic" in light of what dang near everyone is saying.

Unfortunately, in this case, I'd have to agree with Mike.

We have less freedoms (hello Patriot Act) and less security now than we did at the start of the war. The general consensus is that we are actually creating more terrorists through our actions.

The whole "You have to be willing to pay/sacrifice for freedom" mentality is used to justify some gods-awful things that don't exactly jive too well with my view of what the USA should be, like torture and secret CIA prisons, as well as the bill for the Iraq war.

I think if we leave Iraq the place will descend into a howling nightmare of human rights atrocities, and that is probably a good reason to stay, but to argue that we are actually helping to preserve or encourage US citizens' freedom or security at this point is a joke.

-E

[sweater]

I'm just curious how you back up calling what Frank said purely emotional and "jingoistic" in light of what dang near everyone is saying.

Because, just like you can't have a war on "terror" (you can only specifically target individuals or organizations that promote campaigns against US interests, and the US is not targeting all of those at the moment, just the ones that are politically and financially advantageous to do so) you cannot argue against such an incredibly vague question.

In other words, it's not a fair question.

Anyone who answers it with anything other than "You can't put a price on freedom!" ends up looking like an asshole. It's purely theoretical - the same stupid arguments have been used to justify the damn Iraq War to begin with, and the spineless wimps that went along with being bullied into "I don't want to appear to be unpatriotic!" need to f'n leave office. (Yes, a large number of Democrats are in that group of people)

As far as "dang near everyone" coming to consensus on staying in Iraq, you've lost me there. Your sources would support that, mine will support the opposite. No news there, no argument won, no point in continuing.

:shrug:

- mike

[Sound_Man]

So, let's say that everyone who thinks this is a good idea, please put up your hand and say, please assign me a $700 debt in 10 years.


Let's see, according to my basic math skills, that comes out to less than 20 cents per day. Not bad if you ask me.
I spend more than that on coffee and cigarettes every day. If it knocked out the national debt then why not?

[sweater]

I spend more than that on coffee and cigarettes every day. If it knocked out the national debt then why not?

That's just for the latest round of funding. While sensationalistic, the National Debt Clock (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) provides a very different number for each citizen: close to $30,000.

While the figures behind that web page might be a little grey-area, I'm leaning towards the debt load per individual to be quite a bit higher than $0.20 per day...

- mike

[Jake_Blues]

Figures vary, but the numbers I've seen put the cost of the Iraq war at 175-200 mil a day. That's about one dollar per income tax payer per day.

-E

[scottycards]

I think the war is actually damaging this country as much or more than the terrorists are. Even like-minded people who share a common interest are arguing over it.

Truly sad.

[Budman]

We have less freedoms (hello Patriot Act) How has the patriot act lessened your freedoms???
and less security now than we did at the start of the war. Oh really, care to back this up with some sort of factual data? How can you even say that we have less security in the USA, or North America for that matter than we dis in 2003?

The general consensus is that we are actually creating more terrorists through our actions.

Who's general consensus? Care to back this up with facts as well because I think you are talking out your ear...

-E

.

[Budman]

I spend more than that on coffee and cigarettes every day. If it knocked out the national debt then why not?

That's just for the latest round of funding. While sensationalistic, the National Debt Clock (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) provides a very different number for each citizen: close to $30,000.

While the figures behind that web page might be a little grey-area, I'm leaning towards the debt load per individual to be quite a bit higher than $0.20 per day...

- mike

Figures vary, but the numbers I've seen put the cost of the Iraq war at 175-200 mil a day. That's about one dollar per income tax payer per day.

-E


I bet if we cut out welfare, and bennys for illegal alliens and a few other things oh yeah, and foreign aid to places that do us no good, and kicked the UN out of the US, we could whittle into that national debt a bunch. Then we could collect on all the loans to other country's that have not paid us back. Then we could see where we were.

[Budman]

Now wait a minute, you can either use the data put out by the national intel community or not. YOu can not pick and choose what you use of thiers. You bash them for the intel from the start of the IZ war, but you reference them here? What gives? Are they a trustworthy source, or not?

[scottycards]

Just trying to help, dude. I'll delete it.

[Jake_Blues]

How has the patriot act lessened your freedoms???

The freedom to talk to someone overseas without the threat of a warrantless wire tap, for one example.

Oh really, care to back this up with some sort of factual data? How can you even say that we have less security in the USA, or North America for that matter than we dis in 2003?

Of the 333 Army National Guard infantry, military police, armor, and Special Forces units, the number currently combat-ready without reinforcements: 6

Percent of Army Reserve ineligible for deployment because of recent deployments, lack of training, medical reasons, etc.: 84

Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in December 2003: 19

Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in December 2004: 77

Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in December 2006: 185

Number of terrorist attacks worldwide in 2004, as reported by the U.S. government?s National Counterterrorism Center: 3,194

Number of terrorist attacks worldwide in 2005, as reported by the U.S. government?s National Counterterrorism Center: 11,100

Number one target for radical Muslim terrorists? The USA and her citizens.

I bet if we cut out welfare, and bennys for illegal alliens and a few other things oh yeah, and foreign aid to places that do us no good, and kicked the UN out of the US, we could whittle into that national debt a bunch. Then we could collect on all the loans to other country's that have not paid us back. Then we could see where we were.

Total amount of welfare in the US annual budget: ~50 billion
Total amount spent on Foreign Aid annually: ~25 billion
Total amount spent on Iraq War annually: ~180 billion

So no, you aren't gonna pay off the national debt, or even just the cost of the Iraq war, by eliminating welfare and foreign aid.

I'm not sure which loans to other countries you're thinking we have that would net us some huge windfall, but if you've been listening to the news lately, China has been discussing the option of dumping the trillions of US dollars they've collected. They've been calling it China's "Nuclear Option". As in, it would nuke our economy. I don't think we are in a good position to play that game. Over 44 percent of our current national debt is owed to other countries - that's around 4 trillion dollars.

-E

[Gags]

I get a severe rash when I read comments like this...
What makes more sense? Fighting terrorism abroad or pumping money into programs like the National Endowment for the Arts? Yeah that really benefits all of us.

It's not just the social programs, it's Pork Barrel politics (on both sides of the aisle) that needs to be stopped.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2930366
http://www.helium.com/tm/94264/barrel-negative-describing-government

The conflict in Iraq isn't going to just go away if we pull out now. Common sense dictates that that region will plummet even further into chaos. Anyone catch the comments from Iran's President regarding Irans plan to fill the void when the U.S. pulls out? Now there's a peace loving leader!:rolleyes:

We are far better off fighting them there than burying our own here.

It's like this, Sunni are fighting Sunni, Shiite are fighting Shiite, Shiite are fighting Sunni ect. No Country has ever been able to referee a civil war successfully. Many Iraqis want us to stay because they know if we leave things will get worse. It was a mistake to go into Iraq without a plan for avoiding exactly what Dick Cheney said was going to happen. However, the fact that we are fighting terrorism over there so they don't "follow us home" is propoganda. We started the chaos and can't successfully stop it in any short amount of time. We are not in a "typical" war. The death toll is going to go up regardless. The non-radical Iraqis are basically gone.

Does every single thing about Radical Islam offend me? Yes.

What do we owe them?

BTW, f@ck Iran. Keep this sh!t up and they will have chaos in their Country too after we bomb the sh!t out of them.

[Sound_Man]

What do we owe them?



Canned sunshine

[Yota]

[quote=Trango;864538]
So, let's say that everyone who thinks this is a good idea, please put up your hand and say, please assign me a $700 debt in 10 years.
QUOTE]

Let's see, according to my basic math skills, that comes out to less than 20 cents per day. Not bad if you ask me.

Trango isn't including corporations, which pay chitloads of taxes, in his mix and he is ignoring the fact that we have a graduated tax structure. Many of the poorest Americans out there will pay FAR less than the share he quotes. Other Americans will pay FAR more. And corporations will pay a huge portion too.

Yes we can definitely cut spending and pay off a large portion of this debt. We are not even close to the bone. There has been so much pork going into the budget under the Republicans and, as it turns out, even more under the Dems that it's ridiculous. Yeah I'm calling out the House Republicans. The only thing worse than tax-and-spend is spend-and-spend (non-defense-related pork crap, I mean). Seems that all the House is there for is to see how much of the pie they can drag back home. Sucks.

Our current and near-future debt is not going to crush us but a terrorist attack very well could. I'll take the former.

How's that for jingoistic, Mike? :flipoff2:

[Jake_Blues]

non-defense-related pork crap, I mean

I think you're biased :) Let's get rid of the defense related pork crap too!

-E

[Budman]

The freedom to talk to someone overseas without the threat of a warrantless wire tap, for one example.

You make a lot of overseas calls to know or suspected terrorist phone numbers???



Of the 333 Army National Guard infantry, military police, armor, and Special Forces units, the number currently combat-ready without reinforcements: 6

Percent of Army Reserve ineligible for deployment because of recent deployments, lack of training, medical reasons, etc.: 84


Have you checked these numbers before the war started. I bet you will be suprised... BTW: Those are Guard and reserve #s.

Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in December 2003: 19

Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in December 2004: 77

Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in December 2006: 185

Number of terrorist attacks worldwide in 2004, as reported by the U.S. government?s National Counterterrorism Center: 3,194

Number of terrorist attacks worldwide in 2005, as reported by the U.S. government?s National Counterterrorism Center: 11,100

Number one target for radical Muslim terrorists? The USA and her citizens.

Number of attacks with in the US since Sept 11 2001: 0

Total amount of welfare in the US annual budget: ~50 billion
Total amount spent on Foreign Aid annually: ~25 billion

Well there is 75 Billion to start with, throw in what the illegals are costing us and you are well on our way...

Total amount spent on Iraq War annually: ~180 billion

Don't forgot to subtract what it would cost us to operate the military anyway. You guys seem to forget that we would be paying for the military anyway.

So no, you aren't gonna pay off the national debt, or even just the cost of the Iraq war, by eliminating welfare and foreign aid.

I'm not sure which loans to other countries you're thinking we have that would net us some huge windfall, but if you've been listening to the news lately, China has been discussing the option of dumping the trillions of US dollars they've collected. They've been calling it China's "Nuclear Option". As in, it would nuke our economy. I don't think we are in a good position to play that game. Over 44 percent of our current national debt is owed to other countries - that's around 4 trillion dollars.

Well keep in mind that China's economy really depends on ours. They "Nuke our economy" they nuke thier own.


-E

.

[Jake_Blues]

You make a lot of overseas calls to know or suspected terrorist phone numbers???

Yea, you're right, that pesky fourth amendment is worthless, might as well get rid of it. Have you needed to shoot anyone lately? See, we can get rid of the second amendment too! Been accused of any crimes recently? Bam, repeal the fifth amendment right along with it! This is fun!

Just because you aren't using your rights at the moment doesn't mean they can be infringed upon.

Number of attacks with in the US since Sept 11 2001: 0

We're perfectly safe. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3538869)

Don't forgot to subtract what it would cost us to operate the military anyway. You guys seem to forget that we would be paying for the military anyway.

Actually that was over and above the regular military budget. Some of it came from "emergency funding" like the recent 124 billion dollar funding bill, the rest from cuts in other areas.

-E

[Budman]

Well hell, let's just get rid of the military if you people don't have the guts to finish the things you start. I am not saying that we are perfectly safe, I am saying we are safer than we were in 01.

[MountainJeep]

Well hell, let's just get rid of the military if you people don't have the guts to finish the things you start.

Who is this "YOU" you speak of? I didn't start anything. In fact, the record shows that I thought that the Iraq War was a misguided adventure from the git go.

I love and respect our military, unfortunately they are seen as nothing more than a tool to be used as the CIC sees fit. Right now those wonderful men and women in the military are being used to dig their own farkin graves for a "War" that has done nothing to secure my America, and has probably done more to make my America a bigger target...

[Budman]

Because we were not the primary target before. OBTW: The CIC did not do this unulatterally, but we have beat that horse to death and beyond.

[MountainJeep]

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:


Its not dead yet!

:beer::flipoff2:

[Budman]

Then lets keep beating it!!!

[Conrad]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/374032258_5e692a7d77_o.jpg