January 9th, 2004, 09:20 AM
Ok, I got your attention.

There IS going to be a meeting discussing the closure of "the gultches". I presume this includes Metberry, Longwater, and Hackett.

The meeting is Jan. 22nd. at Coronado High School in Colorado Springs. The meeting is scheduled from 5-8 pm. The number for the forest service regarding this is 264-6154. Predator 4WD should also have all the info 528-5790

Come on guys...... who is going to be there????


Please get the word out to as many people as possible.

If you don't show up, you better not bitch when you can't drive your rig up there!


January 9th, 2004, 09:23 AM
I'll be there for sure. graemlins/old_glory.gif

Who else? Come on guys, time to buck up.

January 9th, 2004, 10:49 AM
Ill be there


Captain Crunch
January 9th, 2004, 02:29 PM
I'm there!

January 9th, 2004, 03:03 PM
Thanks Brad I was just coming here to post the same meeting!! I will definately be there.

January 9th, 2004, 04:05 PM
I'll be there.

January 9th, 2004, 04:32 PM
I am definately there

January 10th, 2004, 12:12 AM
may be runnin late but l will be there.

January 10th, 2004, 03:34 AM
I'll be there...

Come on people this is really important.

January 10th, 2004, 05:22 AM
I am going to give it a shot.

January 10th, 2004, 07:44 AM
I'm there


January 10th, 2004, 12:31 PM
i cant make it that day, im having surgery. is there anything i can fill out or someone i can email a head of time to get my voice heard too?

Comfortably Numb
January 11th, 2004, 02:04 AM
The tone of this post is making it sound like a final decision is about to be made. check here to get the actual scoop http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/publications/sopas/sopa.pdf
This is the beginning of a lengthy process.

There will not be any decisions made until July, then there will be an appeal period of 3-6 months before a final decision is made.

This meeting is what is called a scoping meeting. They are used to get input from various interested parties to assist in making a decision. So if you can't attend this particular meeting there will be others, you will also be given the opportunity to submit written comments as well.

January 11th, 2004, 07:38 AM
the ranger in charge of this was at the last state meeting and his intire presentation smelled of double cross and that the descission was already made, yet, he "claimed" (as well as i can remember) that these trails would not be closed permanantly.
like i say after my conversation with the man and the way he could not look me in the eye and the way he danced. id say that unless our group can give good scientific and logical reasons why not----- the area is done. i feel and i think will mean nothing during this process. one must go in with "listen here are your concerns (water quality , noise,-- whatever) and these are the facts that address those concerns you dont need to be concerned any longer and keep the roads open

first step is somone needs to talk with the rangers and find out why they think that these roads need to be closed forever. then research needs to be done to answer those questions. id say someone needs to get busy real quick and then post up so that the rest of those attending will have talking points worth listening to

January 12th, 2004, 04:16 AM
No sure if I can make it, have to work til 8, but I'll pass the word along to the rest of the oapiey's and I'm sure they will attend... they loved hackett.

Grandpa Jeep
January 12th, 2004, 04:30 AM
I may be out of town on that day, but if not, will definately be there.

January 12th, 2004, 12:59 PM
I'll be there and I've posted the thread on two of the Rover boards.

January 13th, 2004, 12:09 PM
At the Haymen Restoration Site you will find their Road Analysis Report... It is 54 pages.

Hayman Restoration (http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/hayres/travel/index.htm) Here are just a couple of things I read in the report. We might be better off if we read this before going to the meeting.....

Here is what I found in the report....

Page 8

Recreation is an important industry on the Pike National Forest and generates a major portion of the local economic base through tourism. According to the 2002 National Visitor Use Monitoring Report, there were 3.87 million national forest visits on the PSICC.

Providing road systems that are safe to the public, responsive to public needs, environmentally sound, affordable, and efficient to manage is among the Forest Service?s top priorities.

Page 13
Roads in the project area have the potential to create potential pollutants in several ways. Vehicle contaminants such as oils, brake-pad linings and hydraulic fluid, as well as accidental spills, may also contaminate surface waters.

Page 17
The road system provides access for activities defined in TW(2). Effects to wildlife include disruption of courtship, breeding, nesting and rearing of your, reduced habitat effectiveness, displacement from occupied habitats and direct reductions in the amount of available habitat.

Page 24
Maintenance Level 1 & 2 roads (Hackett, Longwater, Metberry) that intersect the higher standard roads need to be clearly distinguishable from those that are managed for passenger car use. (Describes trail markings and road closed markings) Forest Officials should give high priority to recommending decommissioning those roads that pose the greatest risk to public safety.

Page 27
Attachment to the project area is very strong for local residents, regular users and motorized/non-motorized receptionists. Those participating in unroaded recreation opportunities would not welcome a road into any roadless area. Several environmental groups were very vocal in their comments during the Hayman Fire Timber Salvage Sale EA that no roads are built in roadless areas.

If you download their PDF document of Roads to be analyzed you will see.

Management Recommendations
A. Maintain as is
B. Increase maintenance level
C. Decrease maintenance level
D. Implement Seasonal Travel Restrictions
E. Close Year Round
F. Decommission or Convert to Other Use

Road 205 Metberry Has an E
Road 220 Hackett has an A
Road 220A Crossover has an F
Road 221 Longwater has an A

?MAINTAIN AS IS? Does that mean as is now or as is before the fire??????


This is going to be a rough battle.
Please bring everyone you can to the meeting.

sorry if the link doesn't work

Jeff the marmot
January 13th, 2004, 02:23 PM
Since I was just in that area, I want to contribute several things to this discussion just so you guys are more educated about the condition of the forest right now. Sorry I most likely won't be able to attend that meeting but I'll pass on some things. Of course I want to see those trails kept open just like any of you do.

I've only begun to learn about effects of fire damage, but I just spent some time assisting with surveying and flagging burn areas for some necessary logging on private property that's about a mile east of the top of Metberry (near Cedar Mtn). I didn't get the time to see any of the 4x4 trails near there. But I was shocked to see the nearby area and roads.

In general there's a MASSIVE amount of erosion where there was none previously. The lack of living vegetation means precipitation doesn't get absorbed or slowed down as it runs downhill. In any small valley or flat area I never expected to see so many willows, bushes, and small trees that have been pushed over due to the flash floods in every drainage. Where dirt roads are near streams the county has posted a lot of signs warning to get to higher ground in case of flooding. The road obviously was the streambed at times. I drove on some county roads that used to be smooth well-maintained 2wd dirt roads that are now washed out and rough with 4wd required where you had to pick your line carefully.

In places where it burned particularly hot, tree roots exploded, leaving large holes and trenches in the ground. Also where it was very hot, there was a sort of a crust on the surface of the ground which doesn't help any with slowing or absorbing precipitation. To improve the situation, in some places especially above roads, volunteers have taken rakes to the really crusty areas and moved fallen trees so they are across the hillside and staked some in place to help slow down erosion.

I've heard that the Metberry area in general from the Platte up to the top of the ridge on the east was one of those areas that burned particularly hot. I haven't seen Metberry, but I wouldn't be surprised if the road has huge ruts in places from large washouts.

So I just want you to realize that it's not just simply a burned area, the erosion on all those trails is likely pretty bad. And it'll probably take a lot of volunteers to get them open and keep them open if they stay open. Sorry for the negative comments. IMO, this is just a dose of reality for the people who haven't been to the area recently.

January 13th, 2004, 02:38 PM
I wish I could be there but can't make it, I would like you all to know that the military views volunteer work as a high priority. (Without it, personel can't really make rank). If they need volunteers, start with all the military bases in the springs. I can be a POC for Schriever.

So, if the volunteer issue comes up (which it will), aside from offroaders and normal civilians, bring up the military, we are always happy to help smile.gif

Jeff the marmot
January 13th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by oapieyoffroad.com:
So, if the volunteer issue comes up (which it will), aside from offroaders and normal civilians, bring up the military, we are always happy to help smile.gif When I was just a young'un 20 years ago I used to go on backpacking trips hiking down Metberry to the Platte. There were at least a few times when we saw military vehicles down there (and they were in uniform), like they were practicing how to drive on 4x4 roads or something. I have no clue if they recently still used the area for that, but the military idea might not be that far-fetched of an idea to pursue for additional volunteers.

Comfortably Numb
January 13th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Jeff the marmot:

So I just want you to realize that it's not just simply a burned area, the erosion on all those trails is likely pretty bad. And it'll probably take a lot of volunteers to get them open and keep them open if they stay open. Sorry for the negative comments. IMO, this is just a dose of reality for the people who haven't been to the area recently. Thanks Jeff for explaining what the real situation is. It seems that some people don't really want to understand what really happens in a big hot fire. Now maybe some of those who keep whining to get the trails open will realize that it's going to take a lot of time and work to get the area ready for us to be able to use it again.

January 13th, 2004, 03:53 PM
So how many of you would be willing to suggest that this be a Forest area accessable by a fee entry?????

Just imagine 3 million visits to this area during 2002. At $5.00 a pop to visit and drive the trails how much money would that give the forest service to help them maintain the area... NOT Forgetting the trail and area maintenance that several of us and the 4wd groups would be willing to volunteer for.

I live less than a mile from the burn area and believe me it has impacted the local businesses in a harsh way... I have seen more local businesses in Florissant and Lake George go belly up since the Fire.

Come on Post up What do you think???

January 14th, 2004, 03:06 AM
As far as the fee and closing is concerned, I liked a response from someone on another site I visit.

"Here is my reply to the forest service:
Let me get this straight: - One of yours burns the forest and your solution is to close it to the people that love it, use it and care for it so only the ones that burnt it are allowed in ?"

This about sums up my thinking. Isn't it a nice way of doing things?? :(

January 14th, 2004, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Jeff the marmot:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by oapieyoffroad.com:
So, if the volunteer issue comes up (which it will), aside from offroaders and normal civilians, bring up the military, we are always happy to help smile.gif When I was just a young'un 20 years ago I used to go on backpacking trips hiking down Metberry to the Platte. There were at least a few times when we saw military vehicles down there (and they were in uniform), like they were practicing how to drive on 4x4 roads or something. I have no clue if they recently still used the area for that, but the military idea might not be that far-fetched of an idea to pursue for additional volunteers. </font>[/QUOTE]Ya I dont think they do that anymore... and I dont think they were supposed to be doing it then. Anyways, I know the Air Force is always up for volunteer work... so just let me know what we can do...

January 14th, 2004, 11:24 AM



The proposed action for this project involves maintaining and upgrading roads as well as closing, restricting or decommissioning roads within the Hayman burn area. This project will directly address approximately half of the 258 miles of classified (Forest System) roads in the burn area. Of the 129 miles to be addressed in this project, 50 percent are proposed to be maintained as is and 50 percent are proposed to be restricted, closed, decommissioned or converted to other uses. The project also proposes the decommissioning of 35 ? 70 miles of unclassified (non-Forest System) roads in the burn area. The proposed action considers that there are some roads that are too severely damaged to make it feasible to reopen them for use.

Public comment sought through February 16

In conjunction with the Environmental Assessment (EA) we are seeking public comment, through Feb. 16, to incorporate public concerns and issues into potential alternatives to the proposed action. These comments and alternatives will be incorporated into the project?s draft Environmental Assessment (EA), which will subsequently be made available for 30-day public review prior to a decision. All alternatives will be analyzed for their impacts on the environment, with the responsible district rangers using that analysis to render decisions relating to actions to be taken on their respective districts.

Public Meetings. In addition to the information provided on this website, we have scheduled two public meetings to enable the public to receive additional information and provide input.

Planned Public Meetings January 21, 2004
U.S. Forest Service Regional
Office Auditorium (1st Floor)
740 Simms Street
Golden, CO
5:00 - 8:00 p.m.
January 22, 2004
Coronado High School Cafeteria
1590 West Fillmore Street
Colorado Springs, CO
5:00 - 8:00 p.m

How do I submit comments?

Please send written comments to: Travel Management Project, 540 Elkton Dr. Suite 201, Colorado Springs, CO 80907, or email to r2_psicc_hayman_recovery@fs.fed.us. For e-mail input, you may click on the ?Public Input? icon found on this web page.

Form for written comments (7 kb PDF)

Those who want to remain or be placed on the project mailing list or who have questions about the planning process should call the Hayman Restoration Team at 719-264-6154 or send an email to r2_psicc_hayman_recovery@fs.fed.us


News Releases

Legal Notices

Public Input (E-mail link)

Purpose & Need Statement

Frequently Asked Questions

Roads to be Analyzed under this Project (82 kb PDF)


Roads Analysis Project (RAP) Final Report (279 kb PDF)

Informational Photos related to this project

January 14th, 2004, 11:31 AM









Jeff the marmot
January 14th, 2004, 04:33 PM

Hey, did you guys notice the caption on that pic?

This photo shows a typical upper, shallow slope of Forest Road 220 (Hackett Road) that still acts as a drainage for water runoff. The total volume of soil eroded in the 4.6 mile southern section of the Hackett Road is estimated to be 30,086 cubic feet or about 111 dump truck loads.That's at this link (http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/hayres/travel/).

At the list of the roads (http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/hayres/travel/HayTrvlMgtProjRoadsToAnalyze.pdf) they show Hackett and Longwater to be recommended to remain open "as is", but "220.A Crossover" and "220.B Widowmaker" are recommended to be closed. No surprise with Widowmaker, but what is the 220.A Crossover - the crossover from Hackett to Longwater???

Based on the above pic, it sounds like they might be giving 4x4's the benefit of the doubt on Hackett, so we definitely need to show them our support, including commitment to volunteer maintenance.

January 15th, 2004, 09:12 AM
The Hackett Longwater and Metberry areas have already been designated for change.

Page 30, para 3, of the roads analysis report states...

"The greatest potential impact that could result from implimentation of reccomendations in this roads analysis in a future Roads plan and NEPA document is the reduced roaded access to dispersed recreation sites along riparian areas, especially in the Wildcat Canyon country (i.e., Corral Creek, Metberry, Longwater, etc.). Current uses are contributing to resource impacts, and it is expected that primary actions will be to pull roaded access further back from riparian zones and to reduce road miles in riparian zones. For a majority of the project area, it is not expected that this action would reduce the capacity for dispersed recreation, but it would reduce the ability of vehicles to access the edge of creeks, rivers, and streams."

Given the current state of the area I can understand the need to protect the riparian zones from motorized vehicles. With that said, it is my hope that they "pull roaded access back" only as much as needed to protect the actual riparian zones. These zones do not extend very far upslope from the river and creek beds, and as such the roads should still provide a nice long access towards the riparian zones.

Its a tradeoff I am willing to make to keep the majority of these roads open.

IMO This is only one realistic concern of the Forest service. Others include mass wasting, flash flooding, and related safety issues.


January 15th, 2004, 09:26 AM
The way I read the report, Hackett and Longwater will be opened, Metberry will be closed permanently.

Nothing about timelines.


Cris T
January 16th, 2004, 02:20 AM
I'm happy to see that this document is being read.

While reading it though, I almost got the impression that these are guidelines they would use for a "new" trail. Some of the things that are going to look at, already exsist and did exsist before the fire.

I too am willing to comprimise to keep these trails open. I would rather see them cut a mile off of Hackett than to see it gone for ever.

Chuck Henry - GollyGwagen
January 20th, 2004, 01:43 AM
I will be at the Denver meeting tomorrow unless something unforseen comes up. I plan to bring copies of the 1 page opening page about what this about and why it's important to pass around just in case someone hasn't seen that. I'm also bringing at least 1 copy, but hopefully a couple more, of the report so we can reference it durring the meeting.

January 20th, 2004, 02:08 AM

Where is the meeting tomorrow?

time etc?


January 20th, 2004, 03:34 AM
just got this thru email from the americans for responsible recreations access site.


The Forest Service is holding two public meetings in Colorado this week to discuss plans for trails and roads damaged by the Hayman Fire. While the Colorado OHV community has already donated thousands of hours and almost $200,000 for repairs, more needs to be done. Your voice in favor of maintaining access for responsible recreation needs to be heard!

Tell your friends about this opportunity to speak up in support of recreation in Colorado.

The meetings will be held on Wednesday and Thursday at the following times
and places:

Wednesday, January 21 -- 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.
Forest Service Office
740 Simms

Thursday, January 22 -- 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.
Coronado High School
Colorado Springs

If you cannot attend one of these meetings, please send your comments in support of recreational access to:

Bill Jackson, Project Manager
Hayman Fire Restoration Team
540 Elkton Drive, Suite 201
Colorado Springs, CO 80907

For more information, please see:

Chuck Henry - GollyGwagen
January 21st, 2004, 04:00 AM
Looks like you got your answer, but I've never been there and am not sure exactly where it is. Is this the place?


I'm bringing the report for reference.